In 1961, Stan Lee & Jack Kirby started something revolutionary.
In 1989, it all started to fall apart.
In both instances, the Fantastic Four were ground zero.
This is the story of how Marvel died. Given all this MMM/Generations/"Rebirth" news, I'd say it's really worth reading.
(In association with Ultimates ancillary storytime; what it lacks in cosmic it makes up for in meta)
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good brother
>In 1989, it all started to fall apart.
>Fantastic Four were ground zero
How so?
No Problem.
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How about you read along and find out? :^)
If you want I can provide some opening context. Would've already but I thought it might distract from the pages.
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>I can provide some opening context
Go right ahead.
There's no way one single comic is going to explain how "it all started to fall apart".
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It's several comics, the arc goes on until #333.
Still, the idea that one series can provide context for the downfall of an entire company is absurd.
On his website, Steve Englehart talks about how the reversion to the original team in Marvels' "flagship" title (arguably it hadn't been that for a long time) was symbolic of the regression that was going on in general at Marvel at this time. There's a lot of truth to it. Stylistically, Thor, Speedball, and Gerry Conway's taking over of two Spider-Man titles can be seen as a regression, as may Roy Thomas' return to Doctor Strange. The Avengers line-ups are cleaned up, with Captain America playing a larger role. The X-titles may not really be considered part of this, but when Bob Harras took over that line, he forced the Inferno event to tie up long dangling plot threads and, most relevantly here, push the original X-Men team in X-Factor back together (e.g. Angel is back with the team, Beast is no longer dumb, Cyclops and Marvel Girl are free to have a romantic relationship). Even Alpha Flight engages in a four part story that similarly restores a status quo much closer to the original configuration of that team. It's at this point that Chris Tolworthy's interesting FF site says that, "Events stopped having consequences. Characters stopped having pasts."
I don't know if this was intentional or if all these examples are even in support of the same thing. Certainly Amazing Spider-Man and Hulk show very different directions, both in terms of art and story. And despite Inferno, Chris Claremont's X-Men continue down an independent path. I also take a different view than Chris Tolworthy in the sense that at least as long as Mark Gruenwald occupies the Executive Editor role, Marvel history still matters. But there's definitely a number of things converging here. The first is indeed Gruenwald's reverence for past stories and classic characters, which while admirable could be seen as too backward looking to allow for new development (my example, of course, is Gruenwald forcing Captain Marvel out of the Avengers' leadership role in favor of Captain America). The second is Tom DeFalco's reverence for Silver Age sensibilities, which is similar to Gruenwald's interests but different in important ways. And probably the most important point is that at this point Marvel is owned by people that have bigger expectations from the comics than to just make money (which is all Martin Goodman or even Cadence really wanted). These guys want to see year over year profit increases and, most importantly, want to be able to exploit (i don't necessarily mean that word in a negative sense) the intellectual property that they own in the large markets of film and television. And that's where their interests converge with DeFalco and Gruenwald's (especially DeFalco's), in the sense that the more the comics are in a classic status quo that casual fans and non-comic readers might recognize, the more it's possible to translate them into other media.
Again, is any of that really relevant to the changes that were forced on Englehart? Probably not explicitly, anyway. Despite the innovation that Englehart touts, changing the Thing into a weirder and harder-to-draw version of himself wasn't really all that big a change, and for the most part the stories in this book haven't been all that innovative. Fun explorations of the Cat People and other weird aspects of Marvel, sure. But instead of groundbreaking, i think it's fair to say the stories recall Englehart's past efforts from the 1970s like the similar continuity explorations of the Celestial Madonna storyline that consolidated all the aspects of the Kree and Skrulls. We know that sales on this title were plummeting, and that Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman returning to the group was inevitable. It also seems like Englehart might have had more latitude to innovate than he seems to have thought; for example, it may seems like we've fully regressed to the original Fantastic Four, but our "Thing" is a woman. If he had chosen to work with the editors instead of plotting out the poison pill of the upcoming storyline, he could very well have had free reign to explore the logistics of Reed and Sue trying to keep their promise to raise Franklin better while still being in the FF, for example. After using the John Harkness pseudonym on Daredevil #237 and abandoning his run on that series for what seems like a very minor slight, i'm inclined to think that he simply resents any changes from outside influences, and editors should have some say over the direction of the series.
EVERYTHING in this post is an IMPROVEMENT.
You sound like Shooter trying to justify the "new universe".
Okay so, opening context:
A year or two before this issue, the Fantastic Four writer had written Reed & Sue out of the team. They retired from cosmic adventure so that they could settle down and raise Franklin properly, as the natural payoff to decades of storytelling. Shortly thereafter Walt Simonson gave them places his all-new #300 Avengers team, to keep them in circulation.
Then Marvel editorial stepped in and demanded they go back to the FF. Because they were looking into media beyond comics and wanted the IP kept pristine. The 90s would go on to have an FF cartoon and an FF movie,
The FF writer didn't take it too well. He handed in his resignation and wrote this as his last arc, in response.
dangit bobby
>X-Factor was a good thing
Are you for real?
Oh I never said 'company'.
Although they DID go on to file for bankruptcy a few years later, due in no small part to what this story is about.
Think of 'Marvel' in this statement as more of a philosophy, or mindset, or fictitious universe.
A fundamental part of what MADE Marvel Marvel went away in the 1989, and inspired this story.
I'm quoting another guy, that's not me. The point still stands, this was the era of regression for Marvel, it's this exact kind of thinking that never allowed Claremont to let the cast of New Mutants become the next X-Men. Also, X-Factor and Scott/Jean are garbage so fuck you.
You took too long, old man.
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>In 1989, it all started to fall apart.
But Hickman didn't destroy 616 until 2014 or whatever. Also is this related to that insane FF as great American novel thing
>I also take a different view than Chris Tolworthy in the sense that at least as long as Mark Gruenwald occupies the Executive Editor role, Marvel history still matters
Oh he doesn't necessarily disagree. Like I said, this was just the start. That process didn't complete untril 1996 (which included Gru death).
user's right in that you can't pin such a vast paradigm shift down to one specific moment. This arc was intended as a cautionary tale, that no-one heeded.
*shakes fist*
N-no.
Yes.
For what it's worth I noticed this shit on my one ages ago, that site just put a clear structure to it. With lots of citations & sources.
That insane FF Great American Novel thing IS pure bullshit in a lot of places but this ain't one of them IMO.
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Sue's Savage.
>my example, of course, is Gruenwald forcing Captain Marvel out of the Avengers' leadership role in favor of Captain America)
Oh shit somebody brought this up yesterday but couldn't remember the details?
Is there a link to the full story somewhere?
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>Mr. Fantastic and the Invisible Woman returning to the group was inevitable.
That's the thing; it wasn't.
Not in his mind at any rate. Looking at it today, sure it was. Because that's the narrative that post-90s comics have generated; nothing ever sticks. At the time, it might've if they'd let it. And that narrative would be different.
>Also, X-Factor and Scott/Jean are garbage so fuck you.
Claremont was furious. And he was right to be. X-Factor premiered as a terribad book with no reason to exist beyond fluffing a generation that had long since stopped reading comics and wasn't coming back.
And most unforgivably it returned Jean Grey to the MU, who turned everything she touched to shit and made Rachel Summers irrelevant.
Also given that his editor was DeFalco and the world can see what DeFalco FF is like, I'd say this right here is a bad example of that last point.
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DeFalco also stole Thor from Simonson and only now admits he was a selfish piece of shit for doing so.
PAD went on a rampage over retconning Alicia as a Skrull because Tommy said only Torch could love her. This should have been the warning to Marvel execs that artists shouldn't become EiCs because their nostalgia would interfere with anything moving forward.
Instead, they replaced Tom with Quesada, and we all know how that worked out for Peter Parker.
Even DC figured this out when they replaced Infantino with Jenette Kahn.
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>Instead, they replaced Tom with Quesada,
No, they replaced Tom with "Group Editors", which was basically the editors of each line (Spider-line, X-line, etc). It was then that it got really disorganized and frantic. Then the following year Bob Harras became EIC and he was there from 1996 to 2000. Then after that Quesada became EIC.
Lyja is mai waifu so I don't mind ^w^
>it's this exact kind of thinking that never allowed Claremont to let the cast of New Mutants become the next X-Men.
I've been thinking about that a lot lately.
After I read this, I read Power Pack. Then Sup Forums happened to have a Power Pack thread, and I realized: they were the next-gen FF. They fell into obscurity for the same reason as the Mutants and the Warriors (only intensified, because progress was FF's bread & butter).
TY for the correction, my memory was starting to remember Harras but I'd already submitted the post.
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>no reason to exist beyond fluffing a generation that had long since stopped reading comics and wasn't coming back.
Are you implying the O5 would've all faded into obscurity without it?
And I'm a massive Excalibur fan, so agree about Rachel.
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>it's this exact kind of thinking that never allowed Claremont to let the cast of New Mutants become the next X-Men
How would the transition have gone, though. Ororo depowered, that's easy. Logan's already everywhere else at once, no problem. Kurt's easy to put in a more adventurous team (like X-calibur), but now you have the other 3:
Kitty (see Kurt), not too hard but some thinking necessary.
Rogue: literally nowhere else to go unless whoever wrote the Avengers picked her up (and good luck getting Claremont to approve handing her over)
That leaves
> Piotr ever leaving his sister's side
Not during this era.
Claremont kinda painted himself into a corner here.
cute
Harras' time as EIC is a really strange one because it seemed like they were trying to roll almost everything back as an apology for the changes they did in the 90's.
Avengers by Busiek and Perez was often their top-selling non-X-Men book. But then there were blunders like what they did with Spider-Man (Byrne revamp, "death" of Mary Jane", Peter back to being poor and down on his luck) But even then they tried to give a shit or at least pretend to give a shit about consistency/characterization/ vague sense of continuity. You end up losing a lot of that by the 00's. Part of that is Quesada/Jemas, part of that is also creators griping about having to follow continuity. I mean, I don't mind ignoring continuity once in a while provided the end result is good. But a lot of times with Marvel stuff in the last 17 years I'm mostly seeing subpar and mediocre results that only end up calling attention to lack of consistency/continuity.
People complain about fans disliking the whole Parker Industries thing, and that they don't want change, but the problem is ever since OMD, only gullible people would actually think Peter would remain a millionaire forever, Marvel has shown that it's willing to roll back the clock no matter how illogically.
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Surely Kitty was still young enough to stick around. Maybe Rogue too.
>Piotr
Had Defenders been cancelled yet? I think a mystic team would fit him for some reason.
Maybe just Mysticism outright. He goes to Dr Strange, tries to learn more about Magik's predicament.
Plans could change. Also Kitty and Kurt could jump to Excalibur, while Rogue and Colossus remain with the X-Men (which would be made up of the New Mutants). Come to think of it wasn't there a short time where Kitty remained intangible and unable to change back? I remembered seeing that in FF/X-Men but can't remember how it happened.
Also Claremont had a different Mutant Massacre/Fall Of The Mutants thing planned that would've involved the Fury from Moore's Captain Britain, but Moore had major conflicts with Marvel and so Claremont had to scrap it.
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>People complain about fans disliking the whole Parker Industries thing, and that they don't want change, but the problem is ever since OMD, only gullible people would actually think Peter would remain a millionaire forever, Marvel has shown that it's willing to roll back the clock no matter how illogically.
The Clone Saga already ends any discussion about Marvel ever taking character development for Peter Parker seriously. They had the opportunity and they muffed it colossally, mostly because of editorial infighting, not consumers voting with their wallets.
>DeFalco also stole Thor from Simonson
Context for this? I quite liked DeFalco's Thor run. And he literally replaced Thor so t'werent all that regressive.
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>Context for this? I quite liked DeFalco's Thor run. And he literally replaced Thor so t'werent all that regressive.
Walt was writing/arting both FF and Thor simultaneously. Memory's failing me but it's possible Walt wasn't making deadline predictably; DeFalco stepped in and took over both books at once saying that they weren't reminding him of what he loved reading as a kid. Walt stopped doing work for Marvel.
I haven't read the Lyja stuff myself but like the idea, I must admit. Kinda disheartened to see it treated as such an afterthought.
That's a big factor against Tolworthy; his project in itself presumes that certain things would assuredly regress, and that certain changes wouldn't really stick. Sounds like a whole lotta Not Muh.
whoops
I thought Walt's FF was after he'd finished Thor?
Always up for some FF comics.
Thanks OP.
Yeah, but even with the Clone Saga there was something vaguely resembling logic (even if it is a dumb idea) when they had Norman Osborn come back and revealed as the master manipulator.
OMD was where characterization of Spider-Man and Mary Jane went out the window just so they could rollback to Single Spider-Man again. Which really went nowhere since most people didn't really give a shit about the new love interests in BND. Shit, I'm pretty sure more people cared about Peter Parker hooking up Carol Danvers than they did with fucking Carlie.
Also IIRC he wasn't drawing Thor by the end of it's run. Unless you count layouts.
np
>I thought Walt's FF was after he'd finished Thor?
I was buying them concurrently at the time.
>than they did with fucking Carlie
I realize the industry would go tits up if they required writers and editors to submit to random drug testing, but that was just serious wishful thinking on their part.
whoops again
Did he have an FF run before '89? Because I just looked up the dates and they don't add up.
Unless they were reprints or exports.
OH BOY HERE HE IS
brb bathroom break
> shocked wiggle lines
I miss these
Out of curiosity, what do you like about them?
I'm getting better at this.
I still remember the exact words from one of my first storytimes.
>HALF HOUR PISS
>ARE YOU OKAY OP
Also yeah, I checked. Simonson Thor ended in 1987. Simonson FF started in 1989.
Presumably Simonson Avengers bridged the gap, it was pretty short.
Are you Kang, user?
Frenz and Sinnott
Well, if you're going to rip off Kirby that hard, you might as well use his inker right
From the thumbnail I thought that title said Bad Dragon for a second there.
>Simonson Thor ended in 1987. Simonson FF started in 1989
Well fuck me then
Sinnott leaving shortly after this has been cited as one of the myriad reasons that the FF lost their luster, yeah.
And it's a pity I'm busy posting these, because I've got a great Frenz/Kirby image.
Funnily enough that Frenz-Kirby image is of Zarrko the Tomorrow Man, esteemed time traveler.
Hypercrisis getting all up in dis thread
...CRAP I should've put Hypercrisis in the OP somewhere.
I wonder what Marvel did that got them able to reproduce grey tones consistently by this point that they couldn't do with Hulk in the beginning. It's the same 4-color process print, same 64 color matrix, same pulp paper, same blankets and everything.
whoops^3
>le FF are le Great American Novel maymay
Also yeah Simonson Avegners was mid88-early89
Oh man he's the guy who killed Marina? AND turned Dru crazy? What the fuck Walt?
>le
you have to go back
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>This is the story of how Marvel died
>implying the greatest comic book company in the world is "dead"
lmao
>he's the guy who killed Marina
marvel.wikia.com
He was trying to make the Avengers great again
Making the FF great again
Johnny Storm romancing a Skrull, one of the FF's earliest enemies, is one of the greatest pieces of metaliterature that have never been used, since DeFalco either wrote them as a soap opera (616) or an already-established couple (MC2). The Fantastic Four are drowning with amazing unused concepts like these, all thrown away in favor of Doomwank and status-quo resets.
Hey man if you've got a counterargument I'm eager to hear it. All POVs are welcome.
I'm not even wholly convinced myself. You can save me yet.
See whambamtyfam
also pls delet this, I don't mind personally but it's poor storytime etiquette
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One cannot save those who damned themselves from day zero.
Besides, if the Great American Graphic Novel existed it would be Robert Crumb's whole work.
> Well, he had a crush on you when he wrote the FF comic an' all
nice