Why do people dislike Duke? He's not being forced down peoples throats nor did he replace any character...

Why do people dislike Duke? He's not being forced down peoples throats nor did he replace any character. All the robins are still around(don't bring up Tim, he will be getting a big part in the next big crossover.) Is there any reason besides race why people dislike him?

What justifies his existence?

>He's not being forced down peoples throats

He literally was initially, along with fan favorite Harper Row

>Is there any reason besides race why people dislike him?

Why would race matter? No one dislikes the first Batwing and he's black (less people like Luke but I think that's more in comparison to the original than on his own).

He's boring and taking up a slot people would like another character to fill. People would like it if Bruce was training Cassandra. Or Damian. Duke's just another space filling addition to the family that serves no purpose. He's a shitty Tim Drake who only exists because he's black. That's it.

People don't hate characters because they're black (most of the time). They hate that a character is shoving out characters they like purely because the fact that they're black. It's one of the reasons people fucking hate black Wally aside from the poor writing, and why some still do (since he's eating up Bart's place).

At least he's better than Harper

but there are many boring white characters too, and they don't get singled out for their race. being black means he has to be justified to exist?

Because he's kind of a redundant character.
There are enough people in Gotham as is.

They don't get singled out for their race (and surely you understand why? societal bullshit where white is the default of sorts, it's probably not right but that's how it is) but they do get singled out. Steph and Cassfags for example both started shit in Babs threads a couple of years because because her as Batgirl was seen as a block keeping them from returning.

True, but they existed prior.
I still feel Gotham needs to shorten down Bat side kicks in characters anyways.
Huntress never seemed to have a purpose, same with pretty much the rest of the Birds of Prey. Black Canary can still exist, but not in Gotham

>Steph and Cassfags for example both started shit in Babs threads a couple of years
and they have their fans now. you'll never get anything new if everything different is cockblocked. Even if they're not good now their existence brings the possibility a new writer will do something good with them in the future
I wonder what it was like when Dick was replaced.
>societal bullshit where white is the default of sorts
yea but Gotham is a shitty city, right? have you been to modern big cities? full of minorities, rich and poor. there are probably hundreds of thousands of minority kids Bruce could have picked up by now, not that he HAS to, but it wouldn't be a surprise at all

>but they existed prior
yes but at some point they were the new guy on the block stealing screentime from Batman
>I still feel Gotham needs to shorten down Bat side kicks in characters anyways.
all right that's a fair opinion

>I wonder what it was like when Dick was replaced.

Fans literally voted to kill his replacement.

>yea but Gotham is a shitty city, right? have you been to modern big cities? full of minorities, rich and poor. there are probably hundreds of thousands of minority kids Bruce could have picked up by now, not that he HAS to, but it wouldn't be a surprise at all

Yeah I'm not saying it's unrealistic. Just explaining why race gets brought up at all.

>Cassandra Cain
>She's boring and taking up a slot people would like another character to fill. People would like it if Bruce was training Stephanie. Or Damian. Cass's just another space filling addition to the family that serves no purpose. She's a shitty Tim Drake who only exists because she's Asian. That's it.

There is someone that thought this back in the day.

People hated Steph too and wanted Cass back. And hated Damian and wanted Tim back as the main Robin.

>Fans literally voted to kill his replacement.
hahaha I know, which is why I don't pay much attention to complaints about a new character not being justified or needed

>Just explaining why race gets brought up at all.
I get you. it's just ridiculous seeing people make those arguments.

He doesn't have much going for him.
The moment where he pulls amnesiac Bruce in front of the train was probably his only good part in a comic book.

>People would like it if Bruce was training Cassandra.

Yeah, no fucking thanks. When Cassandra is written right, Bruce has very little to teach her, as she and him have the same failings - they suck at being human beings. Cassandra got most of her teaching from people like Barbara and Steph in her original run, as she was already an amazing crimefighter, but needed to grow as a person. Something Bruce hasn't done in 20+ years.

>Or Damian.

It's been proven pretty definitively that Damian is better off with a foil to his stoicism, or alone.

>He's a shitty Tim Drake

He is nothing like Tim Drake. Especially the current Tim Drake. Shit, he has more in common with fucking Jason.

Honestly, I don't really care all that much about him. At least with Bluebird I felt that I didn't like her. That at least was something. With Duke, I just find him boring.

>I wonder what it was like when Dick was replaced.
Dick was staring in New Teen Titans which was a monster success for DC. He wasn't that involved with the Batman book during that time, and was being edited under a different group of editors. So it is different than a Tim Drake situation where he was pushed out and rather naturally left when he got older.

I think ultimately people just want to see their favorite characters doing stuff they like. When that happens they don't bitch about other characters because it doesn't matter who else is also in the universe.

Tim was a necessary character at the time, you know what happened with Jason?
They wanted to add the idea "hey Batman needs a Robin or else he goes to hardcore, he needs a Robin to even him out!"
Tim was basically a fan insert type of character; he didn't have a tragic past, any formal training, he wasn't even a genius, just a good detective.
Tim's influence on the Robin was so big he is what you expect out of a Robin to be.
Teen Titans Dick is just renamed, Tim character wise.

Tim fucking sucks and should stay "dead"

that's fair. it's when people say things like >who only exists because he's black
that I wonder why is there this extra level of resentment because they're not white?
any minority character at first is going to have focus on their skin color, but that will fade away as their character's built up and you can see them as a fleshed out person instead of "black robin" or "black spider-man"

>that I wonder why is there this extra level of resentment because they're not white?
Because sometimes a shitty reason is worse than no reason at all. People gonna be mad when you kick out a character they like for a new one. People see the race change and assume it was purely for diversity reasons. Makes em dislike diversity characters

>"black spider-man"
>their character's built up
Heh, character.
Miles has been around for ages and is still barely even sketched out.

>any minority character at first is going to have focus on their skin color, but that will fade away as their character's built up and you can see them as a fleshed out person instead of "black robin" or "black spider-man"

We mostly agree, but I feel like this part isn't true with good writing. Like look at Tiger or Helena (not a new character exactly but still) from Grayson. Or any of the Gotham Academy kids. You can build up a minority character quickly and the race or sexuality or whatever doesn't have to stick in anyone's mind as their sole attribute if you develop them well. Duke existed like a year before all of these and I couldn't tell you much about him at all.

>a shitty reason
I'm gonna disagree with diversity being a shitty reason. the kneejerk diversitybad reactions are tired and played out

>race or sexuality or whatever doesn't have to stick in anyone's mind as their sole attribute if you develop them well
I agree. I'm saying even if you don't make a big deal out of their "non-normal" quality people will latch onto it and roll their eyes
But completely brushing their race/sexuality/etc under the rug isn't realistic either. Those qualities might not be THE defining quality, but for them it's still a significant part of their identity.
Take Master of None. Aziz Ansari wrote it. He spends most of the series' 10 episodes not talking about his ethnicity, but he still devoted 1 episode to being Indian, because ignoring it is lying. I think 1/10 is fine.
It's not a series about being Indian, it's a series about being Aziz. But Indian is still part of Aziz.

Not the point. Again, it's not because he's black. It's because of weird, fictional affirmative action. They will push out characters people like to make way for a new black character no one cares about. What before was just a boring black character they didn't care for is now the object of ire that pushed out what they liked.

Cass was pretty great from the start. Duke's as bland as possible. His gimmick is literally just being kind of normal and black. Cassandra had a very good hook that got people interested in her.

He's a shitty Tim Drake because they're both imminently boring, but he's even worse about it.

The problem is that DC really wants a black hero in Gotham. Like really badly as they think it looks bad that their most successful franchise has barely any black people in it. So Duke is their solution to that, but the problem is knowing that is the main reason the character exists makes it difficult to really buy in.

Also doesn't help they play it really safe with his personality because they are trying to get people to support him. He is dull. Same problem with Miles, but Miles has the Spider-man name and costume that keeps his relevant. Without that Miles would struggle to stick around.

Duke is so boring the only thing about him that matters is that he's black. That's the problem.

If he were even slightly interesting or engaging as a character people wouldn't complain. He wouldn't be so boring and people wouldn't be questioning why such a boring character is eating up screentime in DC's most popular book.

It's the same shit with black Wally. The ONLY reason they didn't eradicate that character from existence for being the worst shit they ever made was because he's black. It's so transparent as to be laughable.

And because Cass filled the Batgirl void that Barbara left (Helena was too unstable to inherit the title), while Damian's still alive, so Duke can't really fit in the role of Batman's new sidekick when there's still an active one. And if the Batman mythos needed a black guy in the Batfamily, they already have Batwing and Lucius Fox, so there's literally no reason for Duke to exist other than as another character that Scott Snyder can make royalties off of from his use.

There nothing really wrong with Duke, its just that Im sick of new additions to the Bat Family because Batman sells. Harper, Duke, Alfred's Daughter, Batwing, all would be suited better as next generation batfamily after Bruce has hung up the cowl or permadead. Or hell why not give Nightwing his own crime fighting family in Bludhaven? Its a mixture of writers (like Snyder) wanting to leave their mark on Batman and giving readers another character to self insert (even though every kid reading wants to be Batman).

Yeah, why not make Duke Nightwing's sidekick?

I don't dislike Duke, but I'm not really excited or intrigued by him either. Nothing that he's done really stands out as either good or bad. He's pretty much entirely unnoteworthy. It leaves one wondering why he's there. Like, I'm not holding it against the character, cuz if he sticks around he'll get a reason, but I don't feel like I've been told via story exactly what it is that made Bruce want to train him or take him in. We have that with every other member of the Batfam, but Duke is just sort of suddenly there.

Like I said, if he sticks around eventually an author will do something to define him as a character and Batfam member, but right now he's just kind of taking up space. And that space could be filled by a lot of already established and defined characters. I mean heck, 95% of what Duke's done you could have just had Alfred do, and if it had been Alfred you would then have had plenty of opportunities to work that sweet Alfred/Bruce relationship.

Once (if) Duke gets defined and gets his own shtick he'll have fans. Right now he's just the kid thats in the Batcave because editorial said so(and they said so because he's black and it's silly that you seen to expect us not to acknowledge that fact.)

Fuck off, Damian is Dick's sidekick. Duke can hang out with Jason.

Not to mention their costume colors compliment each other, and fits the bird theme. Same with Harper. Speaking of which, what the fuck happened with her? Both should being hanging out with Nightwing to start the Nightfamily

There are other black options so it's not even his blackness keeping him around. It's purely because Snyder is well-respected at DC and wants Duke in the Batfamily for whatever reason.

>Like really badly as they think it looks bad that their most successful franchise has barely any black people in it.

OFFICIAL AFRO AMERICAN BAT POWER RANKINGS

David Zavimbe

Luke Fox

Duke Thomas

I don't dislike him. I just wish they would do something with him.

Exactly. There wasn't this weird replacement feeling for Cass. Cass filled in a role that needed filling AND she was great from the get go as a character. Duke's lukewarm porridge at his most engaging and it begs the question why we're reading about him. His character can be summed up as "asking Batman stupid normie questions."

Snyder REALLY wanted to leave his mark on Batman. He somewhat did after Court of Owls, but he kept trying to top himself with the Joker nonsense, Zero Year, BatJim, and finally his own original creations that havent got traction.

You forgot nuHelena and Alfred's daughter

Those black options aren't super popular though. Editorial wants its 'Great Black Hope.' Just like(in a more line-wide sense as opposed to just Batfam) it was Steel then Mr. Terrific and now Cyborg (which BTW I'm super salty that they don't just make him Kharyborg in the comics already. Dude has plenty of room for drama, comedy, and action. Pair him up with a comic version of Beast Cipes and you've got the buddy cape book of the century. I'd buy five copies every issue.)

Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm largely indifferent to him. He doesn't have a strong personality or any real hook beyond being not!Robin and MUH PARENTS ARE ALIVE BUT INSANE. As much as I hate to say it, currently Harper is more interesting despite being in the supporting cast because of her working with Azreal helping homeless people.

I mean hell, even his backups in ASBat reveal more about Bruce than they develop him.

>I'm gonna disagree with diversity being a shitty reason.
It's a shitty reason to replace someone.

Wanting to make a non-white-straight-male character? Great. Hell, my little bullshit OC group is diverse enough to make the Planeteers nod in approval.

But there's no need to bump someone else out.

Remember when Huntress was a unofficial Batfamily member? Whatever happened with that? She on birds of prey or something?

I hate his costume.

Well Duke clearly isn't going to work so they will have to move on again. Black Lightning is getting a show so maybe he's next.

I guess they want a man, but Vixen or Bumblebee wouldn't be badeither. Both known to normies these days due to TV and toy lines.

If DC wanted a strong black character for Batman, they could always make Catwoman look like Eartha Kitt again.

Yeah she's in BoP right now, but hasn't really interacted with the Batfamily besides Dick and Babs.

Hard fact: Static was the best black character DC had thanks to his show but cant do shit with him thanks to the rights

They are gonna try one last Duke push in the summer since Snyder is gonna give him a big role in the DC event this summer. Also King teased him and gotham girl are gonna get married in a year so that is another story.

Technically they do have the publishing rights but Milestone Rebirth is just going very slowly.

My favorite black DC character is XS.

I do miss Static. I'm hoping he's a significant part of YJS3

Costume is the best thing about him. Looks straight out of a Sentai show.

I'm genuinely not sure what's the deal there. Milestone Comics have always been on decent terms with DC, and given how they're tiny compared to their heyday, DC should be able to buy them like they did with Wildstorm.

>marrying Gotham Girl

Do it! See, that already makes him a billion times more interesting. He's the planner and tactical advisor. She's the super powered muscle. They're in love, but there's a catch! She uses up her life force to fuel her powers!

I'd read that!

That' pretty much the pitch tom king had for it. From a interview when the issue came out..

>MSG: The other tidbit we got at the end of Batman #5 was the seeding of Claire’s future relationship with Duke Thomas.

>TK: That was set up from the very beginning with the idea of Gotham Girl that she would be a romantic interest for Duke. The original pitch was like, what if Robin fell in love with Supergirl? Wouldn’t that be fun? I mean, yeah, that’s an easy pitch! What a crazy dynamic it would be.

But of course, since it’s my comic, I have to add some tragedy to it. In my version of Supergirl, every time she uses her powers, she dies a little. Duke knows this about her and of course doesn’t want her to use her powers. He wants her to save herself first. But I don’t think she ever will.

So, it adds this tragic aspect to their relationship — if it becomes a relationship — that you’re falling in love with someone who wants to save the world, but in the process she’s killing herself. What does that do to you and her? I think there’s something interesting there.

He's okay? I feel like the Batfamily is a bit bloated as it is tho and for me it feels like Duke is just black Tim.

Casuafag here. I know jack shit about this dude. Flip the script. Why should I give a fuck about him? What story is unique to him and worth telling?

Note that there's zero pages posted of Dukey? Every other bat character worth noting, user can almost instantly post an interesting page or three of them that will instantly show who they are. Even perephiral ones like autistic asian batgirl, and that blond doofus batgirl, and the redheaded girl robin..

Problem is there have already been SO many satellite Bat capes how the fuck do you make a brand new one interesting? I seriously can't think of a new concept. The only one that hadn't been done for a while was making one a straight up metahuman but now they have Gotham Girl so that shit has been done. Fuck Tim King's Gotham Girl is a more interesting character than Duke.

give someone low level magic

>b-b-but Zatanna

is not a Batcharacter

He can go toe to toe with Dick.

Actually good point. You'd need to handicap them though to make sure they don't completely negate the rest of the family, kind of like how Gotham Girl expends her life force using her powers so she scales down her powers against weaker threats. Question is what kind of magic powers would fit in the Gotham setting and wouldn't make everyone else irrelevant?

Wasn't that just to get his trust before Dick keikaku'd on him?

Idk, I try to forget about robin war. It's a big dent in Kin's library. Honestly we should have saw his batman run being average by how shit this was.

Honestly I'm not creative enough but I think if you make it very specific you'll be alright. Even if it's just like scrying for information but not knowing how it's going to be useful.

Might be just me, but he seems like a black Tim Drake

I though Duke was just some kid. Is he supposed to be DC Naruto?

Everyone forgets Orpheus and Onyx.

I haven't read Batman in ages since the first the end of Gotham Man/girl arc. What exactly is Batman trying to with Lark that's different from The Robins?

Hope they make Duke Orpheus honestly. What kind of a shit name is Lark anyway? And holy fuck is his costume terrible.

He's trying to make him a separate hero that operates in Gotham kinda like Orpheus was. Hopefully Gotham Girl won't get him killed like how Steph got Orpheus killed.

Luke Fox is a far worse character than Duke

They should've kept him in "We are Robin" and keep that title going. That shit was lit.

instead of a sidekick or a replacement he's training him to be an independent ally
Dick went from Robin to Nightwing
Jason went from Robin to Red Hood

Bruce is seeing what happens if he skips the Robin part and focuses his training around the assumption that Lark will be 'leaving the nest' the second Batman has taught him everything he can

No one bought that book though

by all accounts there's still a Robins vs Jokerz gang war going on in Gotham, its just no one gives enough shits to even mention it, let alone do anything about it

>taking up a slot people would like another character to fill.
Fucking this.

How many times in the entire New-52 was Damian actually in the main Batman book? I honestly can't think of any.

>besides race
But everyone likes Damian.

No, he is super smart too. That wouldn't work for a Naruto comparison.

>both have their parents still around
>both are super smart
>both have no martial arts background but are great at it anyway
>both have no one trait that stands out other than just being "good"
They are a bit alike.

It's just like every writer who touches batman now wants to push their own bat family character, and it's just bloating the stories when we should be fully exploring one new character before we start throwing in more.

His role is also EXTREMELY vague in the batfamily, because of this. He's superfluous.

They made a point in night of the monster men to actually make the comparison that he's a poor substitute for tim, but was standing in for tim's role.

He's unnecessary, isn't interesting, and comes off as a creator's pet that Snyder made so he could claim his character became Robin.

He is boring.

He is a waste of space and is being shoved everywhere.

When will DC stop adding members to the Batfamily? Half of them should be killed at this point.

>Tim was a necessary character at the time, you know what happened with Jason?

This. People forget how much tardrage there was over Jason being a fuck up street kid with anger problems who needed to develop and grow and wasn't perfect all the time. That's why Tim was made and was loved for so many years, times have changed though and they really need to do something more with him these days.

>both have no martial arts background but are great at it anyway

Uh

Wasn't Tim was trained by Lady Shiva? Plus didn't Bruce specifically made sure he gave Tim a mountain of shit more than any other Robin to overcome to test if he was going to be safe as Robin after Jason?

>I its not because he's Black
>Goes on to complain about "affirmative action" and him being Black

Yeah shut the fuck up

>Why do people dislike Duke? He's not being forced down peoples throats nor did he replace any character.
and the penny finally drops

...

...

...

I actually think that damian being alive doesn't mean there isnt a void.

Tim is still a robin, but he's ties up in the whole hypercrisis thing for some reason that will seem obvious in hindsight.

Damian doesn't work with bruce. He just doesn't. Everything is hyper dramatic and dark, He was in one issue of nightwing last week and it was fucking great and I don't even like this current nighwting run. He works better with a positive foil to his edge lord B.s. So things like supersons and Teen titans are a better fit for him.

Dick and jason aren't coming back to gotham and bruce needs a supporting cast in kings book. Duke is a good fit. I think he works.

Damian is Darker than bruce...Damian is like wolverine...
Batman can not be the dark guy with dami in the book..Dami is is an ex killer..(Batman has the death of his parents)He steal bruce the show..
Scott Snyder Also says that..Duke is a weak fart next to damian-

Shit was ridiculous, yet awesome. Bruce gave her holos of most of the world's martial arts to study/absorb, and she breezed through it in...what, a weekend? Still didn't make her feel like a shit character.

Duke sucks.

Just another redundant character. I really dislike him.

he is the culmination of everything I don't like about Snyder's Batman.