>Well intentioned but flawed Jedi teacher fucks up training his apprentice, creating a sith lord and spurning on events that lead to his exile on a shitty planet
>Takes on a new student in his old age who will take on the evil before dying and becoming a force ghost that guides the new student
Jesus Christ what a shock that this is what happened to Luke. Not like it happened to BOTH his teachers who were paragons of the force. It’s fucking pottery people
>Perfect ending ruined by Rian Johnson's inability to understand Star Wars
Where did it all go wrong?
It’s not pottery when Disney does it, it’s mass manufacturing.
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POTTERY
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>Yoda fucks up Dooku, Dooku helps the Empire get its footing and leads directly to the events of Darth Vader being created. Exiles himself ashamed in battle against the Emporer because hes old and feeble, runs away from everything to a swamp planet to shit into mud for the rest of his life
>Obiwan fucks Anakin Skywalker up in lava and directly creates Darth Vader, killer of millions and failing his best friend. Hides like a bitch for the next 20 years on a desert planet watching over Anakins son. Trains him for a short time, before willingly dying to Vader to become a force ghost to help Luke further.
>Luke saves billions, redeems his father, and decides to train younglings to restore the Jedi order. Snoke poisons his nephew (who is already incredibly powerful at a young age) ‘s mind and makes him iredeemably in tune with the dark side. Natural instinct while reading the kids mind is to reach for your lightsaber, realizes what hes done and stops himself. The kid kills his other students, and becomes an edge lord. Exiles himself, but instead of going out like a bitch he projects himself across the galaxy in a corporeal form and toys with his old student, before passing on to the force to help Rey.
More pottery than century 21
Yoda and Obi Wan manipulated Luke the whole time. No wonder he's depressed. They never helped him train new jedi, and never even showed up to give him advice, even though they said they would. Then Yoda comes along after it's way too late and burns Lukes house down for the lols. Luke finally realizes what Obi Wan and Yoda realized a long time ago; that the force is a gift to help make you into a powerful troll. Luke realizes if he just suicides, he can watch Rey take her showers and stuff.
Id love to see someone find a flaw with what OP said.
Literally
>Master fucks up Padawan turning them evil
>Exiles himself
>New hero comes along, old master trains them, dies and becomes force ghost to help from the grave
Perfect ending for Luke
Obi-Wan and Yoda were both lying to Luke to get him to kill Vader. He rejected that and successfully redeemed Vader, proving that he represented a new direction forward for the Jedi, away from the old Order that Yoda and Obi-Wan came from. He should've been better than them.
Also, at least Obi-Wan hid out to watch over Luke. Luke just hid on an island and did nothing, didn't even read the books that might help him fix his mistake, made him even more look like a fucking ineffectual retard just to make Rey seem moar GURL POWER.
> haha it's the exact same storyline we already had, you can't criticize it because it's already been done
wat
But thats wrong you retard. Yoda sent Luke into the cave explicitly showing him what would happen if be killed Vader (Luke becoming no better than Vader himself). They wanted Luke to confront Vader because he was his kid, hoping it would turn Vader back to the light and destroy the emporer in the process.
Obi-Wan definitely wanted Luke to kill Vader:
>"I can't kill my own father."
>"Then the Emperor has already won."
And Obi-Wan and Yoda never came into any conflict about that.
More like rehash, he even repeats some Guinness' lines. Also Yoda and Obi-Wan never tried to kill a kid.
Because it doesn't make sense for the Luke character
Obi Wan and Yoda did not have arcs revolving around the redemption from the Dark Side, they both actively admitted that they are convinced Vader cannot be redeemed.
Luke proves them wrong and it becomes his defining character arc of being able to wade into the Dark Side but still come out clean in the end (hence, his dark outfit and vicious outburst at Vader in ROTJ).
And to say that THAT character would act like an Old Republic Jedi-Zealot like Mace Windu and try to kill the first tiny signs of the dark side that he sees is insane. It's an attempt to do Pottery with the OT but it's an active REGRESSION, NOT EVOLUTION of Luke's character, it pushes him back to his Episode 5 self
"He's more machine than man"
I agree, there were tons of bits of dialogue where it was clear Obi Wan wanted Luke to just be a Light Side Assassin basically, without thinking about it
Yoda didn't know what Luke saw in the cave right?
Seems to me that Yoda and Obi Wan both wanted Vader dead, but whatever 'Force power' there was in that cave showed Luke the truth, that by killing Vader he would become him.
Obi wan was referring to Luke saying he CANT. Not that he SHOULD. If Luke defeats Vader and The Emporer and leaves them alive (like Obi wan did with Anakin) they could very well rise again. A Jedi knight of sound mind will have to make hard choices, and if it came doen to it Luke would indeed have to kill his father (the most dangerous being in the galaxy).
Yoda not once says he has to kill Vader, only CONFRONT him. Obi wan indeed wanted Luke to confront Vader too, but if Luke were to kill him he would do it as a trained Jedi Knight.
>passing on to the force to help Rey
Rey doesn't need any help REMEMBER!!?!?!
Yoda also actively vouches for Luke's ignorance, tells him not to think of the Dark Side or anything related to it.
But it's by reconciling these two aspects (the emotionally oriented Dark Side and ascetic, tranquil Light Side).
It was more pronounced in the Prequels but even in Empire, when Luke wants to help his friends, Yoda tries to tell him his training is more important. Yoda is trying to make sure Luke is essentially just living to destroy his father (hence, his training)
Right, I always took the cave scene as showing Luke what he needed to learn, not what Yoda wanted him to see.
Plus you could argue that Luke would eventually need to kill Vader, but not out of hate and anger. Vader's conversion and subsequent death prevent such an issue, but it would have been one had Vader truly been irredeemable.
Yeah I see where is coming from but imo Luke being the only one who can see 'light' in his father and ultimately becoming better than both Yoda and Obi Wan because of it is a major part of the movie. Taking that out detracts from the story in a huge way.
>the guy who refused to attack space hitler would try to murder his own nephew and apprentice
Remember the scene where Obi Wan and Yoda tried to murder Anakin in his sleep?
this movie was shit, i almost walked out when luke tried to murder a sleeping kylo ren
Luke doesn't deserve to be a hero because he is a white male. He needs to pay for the crimes of his people. Luke's character development = reparations.
Think of it from Lukes perspective. Redeem your father (who was not fully corrupted), defeat the Emperor (saving the galaxy) and train a host of new padawans for a better future. It was supposed to be a good thing, everything was supposed tobe actively better, but not even 20 years goes by and already theres an evil just as bad as the Emperor, who actively turns your nephew and one of the three Skywalkers on the planet irredeemably evil.
Luke doesnt go to kill Kylo out of zealot based radical motives, he doesnt go to kill Kylo at all. There are two versions of the scene. The lie that Kylo tells Rey, and the truth that Luke poured into Kylos mind, saw it was festering with Snokes influence, and instinctively activated his lightsaber to Snokes presence. He never would have went through with killing Kylo his nephew, it was a mistake.
And for that mistake he lost all of his new students, his connection to his blood relatives, and his hope in the force. This is tragic for the supposed hero of the galaxy (that people think is a fucking myth 30 years later). He still does the right thing at the end of the movie and joins Yoda and Obi Wan in the force.
All confirmed for having not seen the movie. There are TWO versions of the flashback, only the on Kylo Ren tells has Luke swinging the Saber.
Luke was feeling out Kylos mind, saw Snoke and his influence, and instinctively went for his blade without realizing it. He admits this in this movie. He DID NOT WANT TO KILL KYLO.
It's not a mistake that OT Luke would've made, and even if he did, he would have tried to fix it (he would've at least read the fucking books on the island that might help him understand the Force better).
Luke's instinct shouldn't be to go for his lightsaber in that situation anymore. This is the Luke that threw away his lightsaber despite the threats of Vader and the Emperor being right there, who he had much more reason to want dead than he did Kylo.
There were dozens of other students innocent to what was going on. Kylo was basically a school shooter at that point, rife with Snokes influence. He was a ticking time bomb. Luke was perturbed after feeling Snoke and seeing Kylo for what he really was, and out of defensive instinct for his students went for the saber. It wasnt a self contained incident where Luke was just heavily breathing in Kylos room one nigbt because he senses a speck of dark side in him. Kylo was being mindfucked by basically the Emperor 2.0, so much so that even Han and Leia knew something wasnt right with the boy.
Luke, did I ever tell you about your father?
>Yes Ben you've told me like a million stories about my father, you've been haunting me for decades and telling me your unending stories about chairs, breasts, having your face replaced with an another one from some bounty hunter called Bane and about some guy who worked for Jabba but defected for unknown reasons
He killed all the younglings back in the jedi school. He was a good friend.
>I can be a good friend too, watch this
And as for the books, Luke lost everything. Family, students, will to live, and especially belief in the force. The dude was supposed to bring balance, and two decades later it goes to shit again. Why the fuck would he read force books if he was despondant?
Right, Luke decides not to in the end but he wouldn't have considered it to begin with if his previous character arc is acknowledged as having...happened.
Luke's fundamental approach to the dark side is an attempt to understand those who have fallen.
But let's say that that happens, and they somehow came up with a reason that was consistent for the luke character for why he approached Kylo for even half a second with the intent to kill him as opposed to talk to him. Okay.
What does Luke do after Kylo's rampage? He leaves and becomes a hermit? The same thing that he saw Yoda and Obi Wan do? See, the issue is that in trying to do Pottery with the Original Trilogy, they create characters that basically DO NOT LEARN or REMEMBER past events. At this point, it would have been better to just hard-remake Star Wars instead of soft reboot it.
Again, Luke saw that Vader could be redeemed and he destroyed the entire Jedi order, killed Luke's mentor in front of him, had his aunt and uncle killed, and was complicit in destroying an entire planet. A dozen or two students in danger is nothing compared to the danger Vader represented. Luke had more reason to want Vader dead than Kylo, especially since he had more of a preexisting relationship with Kylo.
He's also the only one left who can fix the problem, and the fact that he knows he caused it should only motivate him more. Luke's always had integrity, it's his real superpower in the OT. He also saw how well being a hermit worked out for Yoda and Obi-Wan. Plus, the eventual kick in the pants he gets to leave the island comes from Yoda's ghost, who just forgot to come motivate Luke for the past few years? Nah it's bullshit.
SeeKylo was a school shooter level threat. Luke was reacting defensively because there were other children and students around and Kylo was beyond saving/talking to thanks to Snoke.
Luke leaves because he lost everything, and his original journey meant nothing and he had less than when he started. He lost his will in the force.
Vader didnt have Snoke as a brain parasite, and in many materials he is shown to outwardly hate his fate and the Emperor. Vader was always trying to destroy the Emperor or undermine him, because Anakin wasnt REALLY dead. He always longed to be who he once was, for fucks sake the guy built a castle on Mustafar. He was also the fucking chosen one.
Kylo was poisoned by Snoke from a young age, young enough that Han and Leia probably saw Kylo talking to his “imaginary friend” a few times. Unlike Vader, Kylo is not redeemable. In fact he openly ignores Vaders redemption as Anakin. The only problem is that Analon never REALLY went away. Ben Solo was never really there in the first place.
>the guy built a castle on Mustafar
the mustafar scene was unironically the best thing out of rogue one. the rest of the film was meh, but FUCK, vader was great.
But neither of Luke's reactions make sense for someone whose previous arc was centered around compassion and redemption.
It does not make sense for that character, someone who thinks for themselves and believes in the best of people, to not try to help Kylo break free from Snoke's influence.
Then, it also does not make sense for this character who actively sought out to help his friends when he was under-prepared and has forged his own philosophy, to decide that the reaction to seeing the Dark Side rise again is self-exile.
>Kylo was beyond saving
That's the whole problem, Luke wouldn't think that. Obi-Wan told him Vader was beyond saving because he was corrupted by the Emperor. Luke would've seen the parallels and at least tried to talk Kylo down - even if he ultimately failed, if Kylo did turn out to be completely irredeemable, he would've made the attempt instead of even considering killing him in his sleep.
>irredeemably
But Vader wasn't? Come on man
To follow up, all this "It was SNOKE!" is that it mirrors the EU excuse of "It was SHEEV!" for why everyone in the Prequels was a dumbfuck or zealot.
The issue is that pinning all the conflict generated on a single character fucking around with other characters' perception or behavior removes any real tension between characters because shit could be solved by COMMUNICATION that no one attempts. Believe it or not, there are characters trying to communicate to each other in the Original Trilogy. There was conflict because that communication revealed a conflict of goals of ideals. Vader tries to bring Luke over, Luke tries to redeem Vader. When Vader talks about the Emperor, he openly admits he's only under him for power, revealing a desire to escape. When Luke finds out that Obi Wan and Yoda basically lied to him, he confronts them about it in COMMUNICATION.
Because the point is that Luke was BETTER than his teachers. That he found good in his father and was set to start a new Golden Age.
But no, everything has to repeat.
Agree. Luke's defining characteristic was that he had a similar power level to Anakin, and after almost succumbing to the dark side, he let go of his anger/fear/hate, out of love for his family and friends, something Anakin was never able to do until the last moments of his life. To take that defining character trait away from Luke just undermines the story.
Gee, wouldn't it have been cool to see that? Maybe a young Kylo doing some fucked up shit because an evil voice is in his head showing him images of power and wealth and corrupting him against his family and friends?
People change user, especially after traumatic shit. Luke saw that his efforts 20 years prior meant nothing and became despondant and self loathing.
Luke didnt just think it, he was in tune with Kylos mind and SAW it. Anakin had 20+ years of being Anakin before the emporer fucked with him. Its implied in TFA that Snoke was prodding Kylos mind since he was a young boy. Whos to say Luke wouldnt have talked to Kylo?
>He tried to kill him
No he didnt, this is just how Kylo saw shit going down. Luke felt Snokes presence around dozens of young padawans and his blood nephew, and instinctively reached out for his lightsaber. He never swung or had the intent to harm Kylo, he just felt an overwhelming dark side entity where it shouldnt be.
This. Luke should have spent his entire life tracking Kylo down to make amends, but instead he runs away to suck off sloth tits all day.
>for fucks sake the guy built a castle on Mustafar
To strenthen his connection to the Dark Side
>Ben Solo was never really there in the first place
Except he kills Snoke and apparently just wants to rule the galaxy his way now. And Rey, the perfect Mary Sue, can feel the conflict but Luke fucking Skywalker can't? Bullshit.
People change, yes, but the issue is that they change as an aggregate of their past experiences.
What past experience is shown or told that could POSSIBLY explain why Luke didn't try to help Kylo earlier on?
I can understand a bit of why he would be jaded in TLJ because of what happened before, my issue is he wasn't jaded back then, he was a more experienced version of his compassionate and hopeful character from ROTJ. We don't see any trauma or wear-and-tear on him prior to Kylo's 'assassination'
>he eventual kick in the pants he gets to leave the island comes from Yoda's ghost, who just forgot to come motivate Luke for the past few years?
My take on this is Yodas ghost only appeared now because Luke had opened himself back to the force. It's etablished earlier that he closed himself off from the force thus if Yoda was there he would be unable to see him.
Not to shit on what you're saying I think you're pretty on point but figured I'd point this out now before someone else does as a means to shit on the entire point you're making.
To expand on this, a Narrative is a sequence of CAUSAL events, so what causes Luke to decide:
>OH, my nephew is being confused by the Dark Side to want to attack me, he's being seduced by it. Just like my Father! But I redeemed by father by not giving in to violent fighting but by showing him compassion
>Better keep fighting my nephew, that's the best thing to do.
>My Nephew has Columbine'd my Jedi Academy, and he's aiding the rise of the new Sith Empire. When Yoda and Obi Wan went into hiding, the Empire prospered and oppressed people
>I better do the same
>Snoke poisons his nephew (who is already incredibly powerful at a young age) ‘s mind and makes him iredeemably in tune with the dark side
Snoke has absolutely no control over Kylo, he just thought he did it's why he has no fucking clue he's done for when Kylo takes him out. Really it's Luke was going to murder his nephew and left Ben no choice but to embrace the darkside as Luke ran away to suck sloth milkies because he tried to pull an Anakin 2.0 on his own youngling nephew, like a bitch he also never told Han or Leia about that and blamed Snoke an innocent old man
Vader was redeemed because not only was Anakin still there the whole time, but he was confronted by his son. The living embodiment of the love he had with Padme, and a reminder of his humanity, came to him not to fight but to reason. It helps that Vader hated the Emperor and openly tried to undermine him several times, and was well aware that he was miserable.
Kylo was mind probed by Snoke for years, and became irredeemable when he killed his father.
“Theres something I have to do but I dont know if I can do it, can you help me?”
Conflicted Kylo is gone, if he wasnt already after killing his fellow students.
Kylos interaction with Rey turned him from Snoke, he wanted that pucci
hmmmm Luke ignites his saber out of fear which is what again? Oh yeah a path to the dark side and truly he fucked up and sent his nephew down the path to the darkside. Snoke has no control over Kylo which is proven when Kylo shanks him and Snoke never even considered the possibility of it occurring thinking he had total control over every thought Kylo had. But Luke to ashamed to admit he truly turned Kylo to the darkside blames Snoke as it's easier than admitting it was him who turned Ben as he left him no alternative
The lengths you are going to defend this abortion is unbelievable. This was a character assassination of Luke Skywalker.
>Luke's perfect ending is to repeat all the mistakes and accomplish absolutely nothing
alright
>Kylos interaction with Rey turned him from Snoke, he wanted that pucci
yeah sure because the realm of pure heated emotion driven action which is 100% darkside was easily able to be hidden from a master level dark side user. if anything Kylo keeping that emotion hidden shows that he's a jedi master on a whole level beyond whats ever been seen before. Even Luke couldn't keep his thoughts of Leia secret from Vader
Except Vader confronted Luke before then, in Empire.
Luke returns because he knows he can redeem him.
But, to your point, there is a familial relationship there. EXCEPT, there's also a familial relationship with Luke and Kylo. From what we can tell, Luke in many ways took Han's place as Kylo's main male role model.
There's no reason Luke couldn't comparably use his relationship with Kylo to protect him from Snoke's influence.
I’m just having fun talking about Star Wars senpai, its also fun okaying devils advocate.
yeah, why would he try and learn a way to fix his mistakes? Sounds like something a white male would do and we can't have that. Fuck books and learning, womyn know everything already and don't need to be mansplained
Yeah but Devils Advocate now is that the new movie's core plot is shit, whcih is the opposite of what the mainstream is saying, which is that only the Casino plot is shit and everything else is bold and creative
>luke arrives
>yoda acts like a retard
>training is half assed because of that faggot talking like a retard never giving a clear answer
omg who could have seen that coming
>and became irredeemable when he killed his father
You mean when the Light Side was stronger in him than in a while, weakening him? It backfired, that was the point. He's super redeemable, Luke just never gave enough of a fuck to try.
>People suddenly forget Luke was a whiny beta bitch for 96% of the movies he was in
No he was a very realistic and believable character the audience could connect with
Give them a few weeks, every nu star wars movie is praised on release. RLMs video helped to change the tide on RO, but it was still "literally better than empire" for like a week.
I'm excited to see a new Plinkett thing tearing TLJ apart...Hopefully they dont take it easy because "muh schlock"
I think they would have been much more negative to TFA if they didn't literally review it immediately after watching it in the theater and instead reflected on how retarded it is (and you can see in that review that Rich thinks it's retarded). Because of that review they had to stick to that opinion.
Not really, Mike shared his thoughts before that he wants a safer Star-Trek reebot like adventure movie that feels like Star Wars. This was exactly what he got, so he can't really complain. He didn't have high expectations to begin with.
But TFA is awful in so many ways that they just gloss over or don't mention. Only because they were high on the New-Star-Wars-That's-Not-The-Prequels hype. Like they criticize the prequels for a whole bunch of things that TFA also does, and is even MORE of a direct rehashing, but they gave it a pass anyway.
>TFA has a few of the same flaws out of hundreds
>hurr durr it's literally the same
Not at all literally the same, in fact I have a newfound appreciation for the prequels.