>"When I was working on the character of Kylo, I came to a place where I thought the most interesting thing would be to knock the shaky foundation out from under him at the beginning of this movie. By the end of this film, he's gone from being a wannabe Vader to someone who is standing on his own feet as a complex villain taking the reins."
>Rian Johnson took some major risks with The Last Jedi and killing Snoke without any warning or tease into his backstory has angered many fans, but the director stands by his decisions. Johnson thought it would be "a really good setup going into the next movie," and went on to discuss that were Snoke to survive, how would that impact the dynamic between him and Kylo. In addition, the decision leads for more tension between Rey and Kylo Ren, fighting for the Light and the Dark sides of the Force. Johnson explains.
>"But then the question is: What place would Snoke have at the end of that? That made me realize the most interesting thing would be to eliminate that dynamic between the 'emperor' and pupil, so that all bets are off going into the next one. That also led to the possibility of this dramatic turn in the middle, which could also be a really powerful connection point between Kylo and Rey." movieweb.com/snoke-explained-last-jedi-rian-johnson/
Thoughts? Also for reference, pic-related details how Snoke was originally conceived by J.J. Abrams and the crew.
Ian Johnson
>major risks >interesting >interesting God, it's almost as if these guys have no fucking idea what they are doing, they haven't done any research or the fraction of ancient mythology reading that George Lucas has done and they are just pulling shit out of their shitcaked noses after a tranny coke binge.
Fuck, fuck Disney.
Sebastian Martin
star wars biggest problem: changing the fucking writers/directors every fucking movie, it makes nothing consistent.
Christian Lopez
>Thoughts? Also for reference, pic-related details how Snoke was originally conceived by J.J. Abrams and the crew. That's still not a backstory though, I don't think JJ had one that's just talking about the design.
Luke Cook
>looks like an engineer from aliensetc >gets unsatisfying jerk around story
Camden Wright
>it makes nothing consistent Worth noting that in the photo, it mentions how J.J. Abrams didn't want Snoke to be old and decrepit like the Emperor and it seems to imply that Snoke was meant to come across as more regal with marble-like skin instead of the crusty look we got in TLJ. It definitely seems like Abrams had a different idea about Snoke.
Asher Reyes
Well Rian is supposed to direct the whole next trilogy so there you go
Hunter Jones
Say what you will about Abrams, but he's really good at making you want to see the next episode. I don't really give a shit where Johnson's story is going.
Gabriel Barnes
For now, if TLJ underperforms after this first weekend then that could be in jeopardy
Xavier Sullivan
Nowhere did I say that those comments provide a backstory, just insight on the creative process. Even based on those comments, it seemed like Abrams had a different idea on how Snoke was originally meant to come across.
Zachary Walker
say what you want about the prequels but at least there was an established beginning and end point to the arc, in nuwars it can only end as a clusterfuck
Daniel Ross
What gets me about Snoke's death isn't his "backstory" its that Kylo probably wont turn to the light side in the last film.
Who will Rey fight? Will it actually end with them figuring out their differences and just walking off into the sunset? Highly doubt it.
Jeremiah Walker
>nu emporer >nu vader >nu Luke (it's a girl this time!) >defected storm trooper who for some reason is always running from fights and mostly used for comedy, ha yea I bet being indoctrinated from youth would really make you a wacky guy
can we please stop pretending TFA's story was going anywhere interesting? Say what you will about TLJ but it's not like a by the book JJ style follow up to TFA would have good either.
Wyatt King
>A Cinemascore it will be fine
Samuel Green
JJ can just bring Snoke back if Luke can manifest a force illusion so can Snoke. Snoke can be even more of a chessmaster than Sheev was.
Ian Ross
It was the best part of the movie and the only thing that gives me hope for episode IX. Trying to replace the Sheev with some ancient evil would have been the worst move ever. This way, Ren actually completes the Sith path of murdering his master and taking his place which Vader never could and he becomes a different villain to Vader or Sheev.
Liam Morales
>who will Rey fight she'll fight Kylo user, duh
Jayden Adams
Snoke is uninteresting, I'm not even being derisive
You have to show how Snoke is a threat not just tell us
If you kill him off and make him look vulnerable how can I ever take him seriously later on
Luke Brooks
I totally agree, they should have given him some backstory though. Rey knows he exists, Luke presumably knows something about him, why didn't she ask about him even once? I think it would make sense for her to do so and Luke could have given some insight even if it was very basic. Would have made sense in the story I mean if anything it's odd that none of the characters in this world are confused by him or want to know more about him themselves.
Justin Cox
Rhetorical user.
Levi Perry
I agree with this. I didn't give a fuck about Snoke because he was uninteresting. TLJ is still a steaming pile of shit and the worst SW movie to date but that was pretty much the only good choice which Johnson made.
Jonathan Johnson
>light and dark side of the force Can't even bother to do a little research..
Carter James
This. Killing snoke is not "a risk" when he is a fucking nobody. Show, don't tell.
Apart from Girevous who i dont remember was designed by Genndy and then put in the movie by Lucas or was put into Clone Wars for advertisement of RotS, Lucas did not rely on the EU to build up characters in the OT or PT. Disney on the other hand shits out books and comics for every side character they keep telling us are BAD@SS but then they do fucking nothing in the movies.
Jason Ross
It could be interesting, but right now I'm just not that excited about IX just being Rey vs. Kylo. There's just not that much going on there... I guess she'll try to convert him again idk.
Julian Turner
What backstory would make him interesting? He was clearly conceived as an emperor knock off because JJ is a hack, how do you make that interesting?
Owen Brown
>Who is Rey and why is she so powerful and knowledgeable? >Who/what is Snoke? >Kylo/Ben - A powerful wannabe-Sith Lord struggling to truly embrace the dark; what will he do next? >What is Luke doing? I mean it sounded interesting to me.
Logan Allen
How about a timeskip when they have their own pupils?
Nathaniel Gray
just wait for rouge 2 thats when snoke more screentime but it wont answer many questions and raise more than answer them
Chase Green
>Rey and Kylo Ren fighting for the Light and Dark Side of the force
I don't want to see that shit. Rey will just beat him. Again.
Ethan Roberts
>>Who is Rey and why is she so powerful and knowledgeable? She never seemed very knowledgeable except about ships/tech and that's obviously because she scraps shit for a living. Taking shit apart you probably tend to pick up how it works. She does seem powerful but I fucking hate the idea of making her a relative of someone from the OT and having her be a nobody who we later find out is a somebody just makes her even more of a gender bent Luke. >Who/what is Snoke? They should have dropped some backstory, not one that connects him to someone in the OT/PT, but I still think Kylo killing him is good. >Kylo/Ben He was the best part of both movies for me and we did get to see what he does next and it was interesting, hell it's the first time we've seen a dark side user strike down and replace his master like we're always told they do. Nice to finally have it happen imo. >What is Luke doing? They did answer this but I understand many people don't like their answer
Colton Nguyen
at least jj flirted with basic character shit, Rey is triggered into having her force flashback when she's abandoned by Finn (really good use of force type shit - it's actually personal). Her arc seemed to be of a subtext of abandonment and finding a new family (that could end up being her real one maybe)
now nothing. I dont even know why she's fighting the 1st order, it's not like Luke who wants to avenge his 3 parental figures and knows their evil by heart. Rey is just sort of there outside the romantic plot.
Daniel Bell
"she gave him ample oportunity to repent and change and he stuck by his privilege, holding on to his power and entitlement" will be the theme
all white men must die
Leo Hall
The committee is the absolute reason these movies are so flawed. When TFA came out I explained to a friend that one of it's biggest flaws was it's reliance on the EU to tell it's story, but they told me that it didn't seem like an issue. Finn is a really compelling character if you know his backstory from the EU but none of that makes in the fucking movies. Why should I care about this character? Because he had a good origin in a novel? That's not how this shit works.
Threepio's arm is the prime moment that pisses me off the most though. If he just had a red arm that'd be fine but the movie fucking highlights it. They have him start to explain it, and then he's cut off. As if to say "Hoho wanna know what happened? Better read this fucking comic nerd"
Michael Young
but her arc is still about family? how is it not about family now?
Josiah Williams
"they were just drunks and now you have Finn who's a dude you friendzoned and abandoned in a coma and a lady named Lea who hugged you for some reason"
Hunter Lewis
Pretty drastic, but could be cool..
On the subject of timeskips tho, I think JJ kinda fucked over Rian by ending TFA without giving room for a timeskip. It just feels like all the characters have spent so little time with one another, and the adventure has happened over the course of a few days. It's weird. Should always be an unspecified timeskip between episodes
Adrian Harris
>I dont even know why she's fighting the 1st order, She was trying to honor Han by saving Ben. Because Han still saw good in his son and Han was the closest thing she had to a father. Now she knows that she can't do it and you just have to go from there.
Lincoln Sanchez
It's going to end where it began: Rey is awesome.
Jackson Gutierrez
>without giving room for a timeskip they could have easily gone months later with Luke & Rey
Ian Torres
they knew each other like 7 hours. If the journey was meeting the people who influenced her father Luke it'd make dramatic sense. Now Luke's story is important to her and she will carry that foward.
Now she has a crush on a Skywalker Prince. thats it
Jeremiah Gray
>I think JJ kinda fucked over Rian by ending TFA without giving room for a timeskip. Even if Rian wanted his "muh deconstruction" narrative, he could have easily thrown in a timeskip where Rey and Luke turn out to be in disagreement over settling matters with the First Order and what it means to be a Jedi. That way, we can suspend disbelief that Rey may have trained for some period of time, only it didn't end up as rosy as TFA made it out to be.
Colton Davis
>fraction of ancient mythology reading that George Lucas has done
He literally just read cliff notes. You can literally see the cliff note books in the behind the scene of the prequel you dumb fuck
Carson Phillips
Kylo says they were nobody junkies that doesn't mean they were. I hope her parents aren't Skywalkers/Kenobis/anyone special but that doesn't mean they couldn't be good people. I think we're still gonna learn more about them and Kylo is gonna be wrong.
They shouldn't be special though because the lesson of Star Wars is not supposed to be "you can be a hero too kids! if you have special parents" I hate all the chosen one shit the prequels introduced you shouldn't have to be someone special or come from some one special to have the force.
Oliver Russell
>She never seemed very knowledgeable I'm talking about the force. She figures out how to use it to control other people's mind, down to the exact way of doing it (say command out loud; subject repeats it and does it). Then when she fights Kylo at the end and he mentions the force, she seemingly channels it by concentrating, then calms down and finds whatever she needed inside her to overwhelm her opponent.
You know, I wanted to know how she's able to do those things.
>He was the best part of both movies I agree >and we did get to see what he does next and it was interesting Eh, I thought it was very predictable. He shows a duality during TFA that I think should've been explored more, and throughout TLJ it felt like that's what they were going for; that he and Rey were going to walk the middle of the road together and forget about the force dichotomy. Instead she's good and he is bad and that's that. He's probably going to die in Ep. 9 after he redeems himself somehow.
>They did answer this I know, my point is I was interested back when I expected something more than him becoming a gross hermit who doesn't care anymore.
Noah Campbell
Disney did just buy fox so that is probably the plan for episode 9
Asher Watson
JJ fucked Rian over by giving him more or less nothing to work with. Finn being in a coma is great but what the fuck are you going to do with Boyega? Have him lay in a bed for 3 hours?
Why are they the resistance? This is something JJ never explained properly and now Rian was stuck with this plot and had to force shove something in. Who are Rey's parents? Well certainly not a member of the original trio so that leaves no one of actual importance. Obi-Wan is the best you can get and at the end of the day that's retarded. And then you have Snoke. A boring bland Palpy ripoff. Kylo Ren was the only good thing to come from TFA, and he was the best part of TLJ because he's the only character with real effort put into him.
TFA has really, really bad framework. It's borrowed imagery, worthless mysteries, and wasted potential.
Luke Rogers
Snoke will return
This is his schtick - resurrection
He is Darth Plagueis
Hudson Ramirez
Yeah, I felt it was also the best shot of the film. How it was composed and presented was just perfect.
Eli Watson
the point is not WHO they are. By now that is irrelevant. If they're nice people, who cares.
The arc being about family made sense in TFA where she'd meet her family, dig up its history and carry that basic myth (carrying your father's sword etc).
Now she's a guest in someone else's story that is about to end because Disney wants to pop out whatever character with a lightsaber for new movies without being blocked by skywalker shit. She herself holds no dramatic value
Charles Rodriguez
I don't know why he's pretending Rey vs Kylo is more interesting...we've already done that twice
oh my god I wonder if she'll beat him again...yawn.
Colton Torres
where'd she learn to swim growing up a complete desert planet and having never seen a body of water before?
Brody Baker
I am so fucking happy they killed Snoke. He was such a boring, flat character that might have well been a cardboard cutout of the Emperor with a different face taped onto it.
Kylo Ren is one of the most multi-faceted characters the Star Wars movies have ever had, and having him have to stand a his own master in IX is far more exciting than watching some bullshit with Snoke monologuing about how he's really Darth Plageius or some shit.
Cooper Nelson
>Snoke will return I mean they do seem open to it: >Johnson thought it would be "a really good setup going into the next movie," and went on to discuss that were Snoke to survive, how would that impact the dynamic between him and Kylo.
Levi Turner
>people are ACTUALLY mad that Episode 9 won't be some garbage RotJ clone with Luke versus some old faggot
Jason James
I think it was a great decision and that scene was fucking awesome. Perfectly handled.
John Barnes
And Luke and Obi-wan knew each other for like 12 hours and still had a deep connection which lasted throughout the first 3 movies.
People always forget that the first films had their flaws too, not just in storytelling but characters and motivations. If they would come out today everyone would flip their shit and there will be a ton of *breaths in* threads like >OMG the superweapon of the Empire has a hole in it which is basically a Red Selfdestruct Button
Andrew Phillips
that was great, but now it's 2 times defeated kylo vs mary sue. who cares?
outside their relationship, who gives a shit about resistance crap vs nazis?
Jordan Mitchell
I can agree but her being Luke's daughter would only have worked if it wasn't a mystery and JJ wanted a mystery. Rey remembers her family in TFA. She doesn't really talk about them, but she clearly remembers them. Maz also tells her "They're never coming back for you" because it's the cold hard truth. She has these flashes and visions but they're visions not memories. Her family was always meant to be nothing. Fans theorized it to be more, they read into red herrings JJ placed but at the end of the day it's the only logical answer. That's how JJ Abrams works. He picks a mystery, forces in some false leads, and then he gives an answer no one really likes. He didn't leave Rian his answer but judging by what he's said and what Daisy has said in the past it's really clear Rian got it right.
Easton Wright
Yeah. I think TFA is more enjoyable to watch. But TLJ's worst aspects are a direct result of careless setup in TFA.
Luis Nguyen
you're just about as imaginative as rian johnson
Mason Morales
>outside their relationship, who gives a shit about resistance crap vs nazis? Now that most of them are dead, it does get a little interesting. It means that both sides need allies.
Jose Garcia
They didn't fight in this movie. They had a force pulling contest that ended in a draw.
Nolan Lewis
Well for Rey I guess I'd say that it's clear JJ was setting her up to be a skywalker but I think that's really fucking stupid so I'm glad Rian said no.
They did explore Kylo more we find out why he started being drawn to the darkside to begin with he felt his parents didn't want him and essentially pawned him off on Luke, then he thought Luke wanted to kill him. To me his arc was going from uncertain to certain and I liked it.
I do think Luke could have been handled better but the general idea that even the great Luke Skywalker can lose hope or be crushed by guilt was not a bad idea imo. Really I think the mistake was not giving him a stronger redemption, I don't think he should have died I think we should have seen him return to the resistance renewed and ready to get really involved in the fight again, then he could die in 9 fully redeemed from giving up before.
Evan Diaz
Ben was in his life previously. And from the start of 4, he gave support to Luke after he lost his parental figures, saved his life and had an actual relationship
Jackson Miller
But Mouse shill, I still have no fucking clue what Snoke did to turn Ben into Kylo, and without that being explained in this movie and especially the next, then I have no fucks to give about Kylo's struggle or whatever.
Kevin Phillips
>so that all bets are off going into the next one
Except Kylo & Hux are not good villains, both of them are complete jokes Even Domhnall Gleeson jokingly says Kylo is a bitch & Daisey Ridley laughed in agreement, do you think Ford or Hamil ever said the same about Vader?
Snoke was the saving grace to the trilogy, someone even more dark & powerful than Sheev, now hes just fucking dead
Isaac Fisher
>killing the main villain is a good setup to the next movie
Cooper James
>Show, don't tell.
They spent the whole movie with this fucker dragging people around the floor like mops with his mind, subjugating the cast just for some retard to spew some shot he heard but doesn't understand from creative writing class.
Nolan Nguyen
It's in one of the novels apparently. Snokers sent bad thoughts into Leia's fetus and Ben was lost to the darkside before he was even born.
Isn't the committee fun?
David Butler
>novels fuck off
Jayden Sanders
>never seen a body of water how do we know she's never seen water user? I think this is a bit of a stretch
She obviously wanted to be "somebody" she wanted her parents to be special, for there to be some special reason she was left on Jakku. The arc will be her realizing it doesn't matter where you come from. Rise above the circumstances of your birth, that kind of thing.
Camden Lopez
>Snoke is the main villain >2 minutes of screentime total in TFA
It's Kylo. This movie just doubled down that it was Kylo dumbass.
Mason Gomez
When they're being written alongside the movies and shit is purposely being left out of the movies so that fags will buy the novels it's fucking valid to bring them up. They're a big part of the ST's flawed writing.
Samuel Myers
yeah jj is shit with his mystery box nonsense
but seeing that last scene with the music, are we supposed to just be emotional for seeing Luke? And not emotional about the protagonist Rey's reaching the end of her journey and potentially real father?
the villains are a nerd and a castrated buffoon now. It's a mess. Snoke should have been killed at around 15minutes and establish any proper villain
i meant defeated in general. He's a impotent manchild two times in a row
Angel Rivera
It's a wonderful shot but everything before and after it is absolutely retarded
Nathan Garcia
Yeah, the character that’s been infecting the mind of kylo ren for a decade and corrupted him and forced luke to end the jedi and ended leia’s marriage and started another empire and manipulated the main characters of the new series. Why the fuck do you nerds can about his backstory?
Sebastian Johnson
The main villain of the new trilogy being a crazy homicidal nerd is more interesting than ANY previous villain besides Vader and Sheev. The Prequel gang were all retarded jobbers.
Hunter Cook
Yeah and the nuWars filmmakers don't even seem to understand a fraction of that so his comment still holds up
Jacob Robinson
which is baffling because Disney's expanded universe builds up Snoke as if he's fucking Thanos
Christian Robinson
This.
Dylan Allen
Yea I really don't get the people don't like Kylo. Unstable nerd is an awesome villain idea.
Adrian Martin
Yeah, I actually think they did a good job with they Kylo Ren part, but they still could have given Snoke some exposition and still have Kylo kill him and everything else. Oh well, I didn't really care about Snoke much anyway.
Nathan Wood
Why should you? None of that was in the movies. None of it was ever going to be in the movies.
Landon Reyes
What do they possibly have to fight over that's the least bit interesting? The Rebels versus the White Supremacist First Order for the fiftieth time? That's what the conflict is going to be so it's doomed to be another lava fight between Anakin and Obi-wan: just a big spectacle with no reason to care about the fight. Kyle Ren doesn't come from an understandable position, he's not tempting Rey with anything, he's not charismatic in his own right. What's the point?
Isaiah Rogers
Same. A friend told me they were upset to see Snoke die because they didn't think Kylo Ren could carry a movie as the only villain but he's been doing it for two movies now. He's the only interesting character in this entire mess.
Eli Myers
>The main villain of the new trilogy being a crazy homicidal nerd
That already lost to a girl and is going to lose again because there's no way on Earth they'll have anything else happen.
Nathan Stewart
He's an insane guy who just chopped off his leash. The First Order was already getting weird in TLJ (guys with axes and whips) and once he reunites his Knights it's going to actually be a crazy order instead of just Empire 2.0.
Dude just wants to be king. That's a lot more interesting than Snoke's crusade to kill Luke.
Jonathan Wood
yoda can come and make lightning and shit after he's dead but when a bad guys dead oh well he's gone forever
Jason Evans
>Snokers sent bad thoughts into Leia's fetus and Ben was lost to the darkside before he was even born. Good lord, it's even more cancerous than I thought. How can the mouse shills even defend this crap?
Aaron Richardson
>She figures out how to use it to control other people's mind, down to the exact way of doing it (say command out loud; subject repeats it and does it).
It's one of the most popular and common things known about Jedi. People on the outer rim know about Jedi mind tricks dating far back to episode 1.
Granted she still is overly talented and just magically picked up everything first try.
But I do think it's a better idea that anybody could be Rey.
Blake Anderson
>Dude just wants power for power's sake
That's so unoriginal it's not even original to the series. Him being the best part in a shitshow doesn't make him good.
Josiah Parker
Pretty sure they already confirmed Kylo wasn't lying, but that he believes her parents being drunks who sold her off is what he actually saw. Now, you could try and stretch that as some sort of misunderstanding, but I still think they are literal whos just maybe it wasn't as cruel as what he saw. Who cares though, they're basically deemed irrelevant to her story now. That was the point, that she's not going to get an easy answer like "ur parents were x you belong now!"
Jack Young
>The arc will be her realizing it doesn't matter where you come from. Rise above the circumstances of your birth, that kind of thing. that is bad fantasy mythopoetics
not the idea that anyone can be that in lore, thats fine. Obi wan's parents probably werent anyone special for instance. But a protagonist should have some sense of connection that she carries. Rey will be the start of a new EU nonsense fanfic vibe with just random "space cowboy ninja jedi" etc
it's wishy washy. Neither here nor there. He'd be a good villain to turn and become a secondary good guy, but he's not a challenge or anyone's nightmare. He's no dragon or demon.
Juan Watson
Why do leftists despise unborn children so damn much? Is it because they represent a hope and happiness that they are incapable of feeling?
Brandon Hall
He feels entitled to the galaxy because of grand-daddy. That is actually kind of new for the series and it ties into his knightly theming.
Joshua Walker
When he has to explain every shitty decision he made for the movie, you know he fucked up. He already explained Rey's parents, Luke's death and now Snoke, what's next, SuperLeia?
Nathaniel Foster
>a really good setup going into the next movie
HOW ABOUT PLANNING WHAT THE FUCK YOU WERE GONNA DO FIRST INSTEAD OF MAKING IT UP BACKWARDS
> were Snoke to survive
What the fuck would be the point of that, then you've gone from inexplicably killing a major character for cheap shock value into full comic book NOBODY EVER DIES territory of fake-out deaths. It's even worse.
It's Darth Maul comes back with robot legs level.
Lincoln Bell
Something really new would be treating his story as if he really deserves that power because of his grand daddy. Because so far the only defiance to that claim is a deus ex machina of writers who dont want to throw shit at a woman character
Adrian Lopez
When they all arrive at Mazs planet in TFA she says something like "I didn't know there was this much water in the whole galaxy"
Parker Miller
The problem with this film isn't the new characters in themselves, but how they're handled.
The producers and director decided to do so many things with this series, but that's not how the original films were done.
Lucas had three main protagonists; Luke, Han, and Leia with supporting roles by Chewie, 3PO, and R2D2. Lando comes in at the very end of Episode V and has a few scenes in Episode VI.
Disney has Rey, Finn, Poe, Luke, Leia, Han (in episode VII), and smothers them with Rose, Holdo, the code breaker, Maz Kanata, Chewie, BB, and the list goes on and on.
The antagonists are more concise, but we only get to enjoy Kylo. A lot of people hate Kylo, because they think he is a whiny brat, but he should be so much more than that. As the plot presents itself, he is a man who has been fucked over by his own uncle. The foundation of everything good and decency is supposed to be represented by in the galaxy has a moment of murderous intent. Kylo reacts in self-defense by bringing down his own quarters, and then in his madness burns down the entire Jedi Academy. Why shouldn't he? Why should he trust that Luke won't try again to kill him? At this point, he becomes anathema to his own family and a criminal. He has no order, no family, no sense of right and wrong to trust in. Kylo escapes to the the security presented by the First Order. Kylo actually has a lot of depth in the background that is just waiting to be brought to life. Writers in Disney's EU (whatever they are formally calling it, I don't know) should have a field day with this dude.
Then there is Snoke and Hux. Hux doesn't even have a fraction of the malice that Tarkin had and not an iota of the discipline from Piett.
Snoke is presented as a malicious and influential character, but everything about him screams Disney, which is way too simplistic to actually be convoluted into an interesting or original villain.