I didn't realize it until now, but Tom Brevoort edited Civil War II? Did that mean that before the editing, it was even worse? Because I remember with Millar's Civil War and Bendis' Secret Invasion that Brevoort posted early outlines and corrections like in this part of Millar's Civil War pitch:
z3.invisionfree.com
And Nick Lowe's comments on Secret Invasion:
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I also recall Brevoort saying in a half-joking but I'm deadly serious kind of way that editing Bendis was a headache.
He probably gave up on CWII which is why it's so shit.
>S.W.O.R.D. isn’t a wing or subsidiary of S.H.I.E.L.D. or the US gov’t. It’s a completely separate entity that has worked with S.H.I.E.L.D. on occasion. They’re an intergalactic peace-keeping organization that doesn’t operate under any government or world’s control. In ASTONISHING, Brand mentions to Maria Hill that the only reason that S.H.I.E.L.D. knows that S.W.O.R.D. exists is because of her relationship with Nick Fury.
>Possible solution- Rather than an inspection, Dugan’s reason for coming to the Peak (what the ship is called) could be one of a regular meeting they’ve set up to share information. It could still be special that it’s Dugan coming (maybe Maria Hill is the usual rep from S.H.I.E.L.D.) and I could imagine that Brand has a prior relationship with Dugan since she had one with Fury. And I could also imagine a few of the S.W.O.R.D. agents being really into meeting him.
>Agent Brand’s characterization- She’s not really an excited school girl. She’s a sarcastic, all-business, hard-*** who has little time for…anything, really. But, like I said before, I could see that she and Dugan might have a positive relationship. But we usually treat her like she’s the one with the knowledge. She doesn’t ask questions too much. One place in particular that I might ask for a simple change would be reversing the dialogue on pages 18-19 panel 5 so that the agent asks the question and Brand answers it. The only other thing that I might ask is that Brand, rather than radioing the Helicarrier, might be trying to radio S.W.O.R.D. HQ and it might be jammed by XXX XXXXXX.
Bendis wrote Brand like an excited school girl? Seriously? What the fuck is wrong with him? Why use her if he clearly didn't read Astonishing?
It was better but the world building needed to be changed
Dear God, Millar's original outline for Civil War was even worse than the final product, glad to see Tom Brevoort called out everything wrong with it.
> Another thing I’d like to suggest is completely rethinking the alien attacks thing discussed at the summit. We’ve seen aliens attack many times and varied types of aliens will only be confusing and a turn-off for the end of a big superhero series. For a summer event, the kids want Marvel characters and the conclusion to this should be the biggest Marvel character of all. I’d really like to see the Hulk attack Earth and bring with him small, five foot versions of the Hulk called Hulk Babies who are just as powerful and dangerous, but the spawn of the Hulk after he’s bedded a hundred thousand alien chicks. They should all look the same and do enormous amounts of damage when they show up with Dad. This keeps it simple, looks more visually interesting and stops us falling into Star Trek or whatever. It also seems more like a superhero comic than a sci-fi thing and I think the fans would be more into it.
So the Hulk Gang from Old Man Logan was a Civil War plot he was told was too stupid?
>So the Hulk Gang from Old Man Logan was a Civil War plot he was told was too stupid?
Sure seems like it. Also not surprisingly Brevoort didn't edit that one. On the other hand Brevoort was also the one with bad ideas in that Spider-Manifesto for Brand New Day.
So I wonder, has Bendis become too powerful to be edited, or editors just completely gave up on him to avoid a total neural breakdown?
Why does Mark Millar hate Speedball so much?
Because Speedball was happy and Mark wasn't.
>Cut to a disturbing moment where a friend of Speedball lands himself in big trouble. The first issue had Speedball on the phone to a friend who was supposed to have been involved in a team-up that fateful night. But now he’s scared and wanting credibility, which is why he passed his name and address to the SRA people and hoped for a whole new career. But his name got out there and an old villain found out and now his little kid has been snatched on the way home from school. Everything superheroes wear a mask for is articulated here as a threat is sent out and this little superhero is told that, unless he kills an innocent, his kid is getting butchered and delivered home in pieces.
>Such a series threat at the very heart of the whole argument, the reason they even wear these masks, takes the argument to a whole new level and Spidey, despite liking Stark, jumps sides as they all get out there and do what they can to find this kid. [TB -I would think that Tony would as well—just because he believes that registering heroes is the right thing to do doesn’t mean he wants to see a little kid get killed. So this could seem to be a unifying moment that really isn’t.] However, they’re getting nowhere and the deadline is almost up and it’s only when this guy blows his own brains out (thus killing an innocent) that the kid is released. Horrible, depressing end to the arc within the story, but it’s a wake-up call to many of them as they solidify their positions. The kid is safe, but nothing can ever be the same again.
This is fucking stupid and contrived. Why would a villain want a hero to kill an innocent? What does he gain out of it? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to ask for money or classified information or something? And if he just wants to make the hero suffer, why not just kill the kid? When in the history of ever has any criminal demanded that someone kill any random innocent or else?
It's what Mark Millar would do. He wants to ruin Speedball as a *character*. Mark Millar understands that simply killing a character means they'll be back in a couple of years, just killing an innocent will be forgotten in a few months or even weeks, but making a character kill an innocent means that "but nothing can ever be the same again".
He was going through an Evil Grant Morrison phase at the time.
You don't seem to have understood what Millar was planning. The whole thing wasn't with Speedball, but a "friend" of Speedball's with a kid. Millar hadn't even bothered thinking about who the character would be, he was using a character as a plot device, not as an actual character.
More importantly, the guy wasn't gonna kill an innocent, he was gonna kill himself, so it wouldn't have actually ruined whoever the character would have been.
If that's what the original Civil War and Secret Invasion outlines looked like, imagine how horrible the original Civil War II outline must have been. Didn't Bendis say he wanted to kill off Peter Parker?
We also know that Ulysses was originally called Homer.
Marvel reduced editors when pearlmutter came. Another thing is loose canon and flexiblity was already showing up before that.
While Disney don't care about that stuff at all.
Only thing matters is the big stuff that happened before.
It was even more loose pre sw. They had artists drawing characters who shouldn't be there or writers having recent events in wrong order. There was also Thors new axe thing in the past which contradicts previous celestials storiesl
>There was also Thors new axe thing in the past which contradicts previous celestials storiesl
What do you mean?
>Didn't Bendis say he wanted to kill off Peter Parker?
Yes, he made a huge fuss about it when people told him he couldn't.
He still wants to kill off parker, for more attention to miles.
I recall that James Robinson proposed that instead of Hawkeye murdering Banner over Ulysses' vision, Banner should kill himself, which imo would have been better.
Definitely would've made the whole conflict more grey.
Is there any proof to this or are you just responding to yourself to push "muh bendis wants to kill peter maymay XD" shit over that article where he was trying to provoke a reaction out of Slott?
That was also fucking stupid as fuck! Banner killing himself over being cyberbullied? Fucking really?
>Marvel reduced editors when pearlmutter came.
While true (Perlmutter did that when he took over in the 90's) it's when he let go of some editors in 2011 that you can see Marvel start really going on a downslide. Maybe it's also affected by Alonso being EIC as well, but you can't deny post-2011 that Marvel looks inferior and repetitive compared to the Quesada years.
Nah, I see it as plausible.
but only if they set Ulysses visions up as 100% accurate instead of having the "what if they're not a guarantee" shit running all the way through the book.
If they did that, and Bruce knows it, I could see him trying to kill himself even if he thought he was 100% free of the Hulk like they had set him up to be in Totally Awesome.
I'm trying to find it but little luck, I asked Brevoort a question on his formspring years back, and he posted a whiteboard that was the early plans for the 3rd act of AvX (CBR did an article about it, but the image link is broken on there)
it was the 5 writers and Brevoort hammering out the details. Magneto was supposed to have a bigger role, Prof X was never mentioned, and instead of the Phoenix 5 they were called the HeX-Men (I guess implying a bigger role for Scarlet Witch?)
its easy to see when the Original Pitch documents are sent in (the Civil War link) vs actual editing (the Secret Invasion one), vs just trying to get the story figured out (the AvX shit I can't find) how much the editor can affect the story.
>nydailynews.com
>Though they also didn’t immediately settle on a big-name hero to turn into the culprit, Bendis kept referring to the doomed hero as Peter Parker, aka Spider-Man.
>“Do you see me worried? I’m not worried,” whispers “Amazing Spider-Man” writer Dan Slott. “This is not my first rodeo. By the end of the afternoon, it won’t be Peter Parker.”
>And sure enough, Parker is saved a grim fate by the afternoon as mass opinion shifts attention to other characters.
>Another candidate is the Fantastic Four’s Human Torch, but Bendis extinguishes that idea quickly.
>“He burns people and that’s so horrible (to illustrate),” the scribe says.
>Other ideas are bounced around.
>“What if the pressure causes (the hero) to commit suicide,” suggests James Robinson, another Marvel writer, adding that it could be a good way to draw attention to the scourge of cyber-bullying.
>But editor Tom Brevoort’s Spidey-sense is immediately tingling.
>“I don’t think you’d want a Marvel Super hero committing suicide,” he interjects.
>After hours of occasionally heated debate, Bendis and Alonso reveal they had a eureka moment during a 10-minute break and came up with the perfect superhero to sacrifice and an even better candidate to murder him. The answer actually gets a loud ovation from the crowd.
Early book where Thor says he has no special tool to beat them.
Then the axe comes around ignoring it.
They did kinda do that with Skaar. and World War Hulk already had his posse of dudes from Planet Hulk
Bruce made the magic arrow that could kill him and gave it to Clint.
I fear for the day when Bendis becomes an editor.
>>“Do you see me worried? I’m not worried,” whispers “Amazing Spider-Man” writer Dan Slott. “This is not my first rodeo. By the end of the afternoon, it won’t be Peter Parker.”
Aka Bendis trying to start shit with Slott
>“What if the pressure causes (the hero) to commit suicide,” suggests James Robinson, another Marvel writer, adding that it could be a good way to draw attention to the scourge of cyber-bullying.
That's pretty bad.
The only saving grace to it is that suicide idea is it doesn't ruin Hawkeye as well, but that's about it.
Here's the whiteboard you mean.
IIRC Brevoort posted it in response to accusations that the plot of AvX was a last-minute thing. He posted this from the retreat where they hammered out the plot, to show that even though details changed the basic story remained the same.
During Civil War II there was a scene where Carol mentioned that Tony sponsored her for Alcoholics Anonymous and I thought, "okay, I bet Brevoort suggested that one." I just assume no continuity reference in a Bendis comic is Bendis's idea unless it's really stupid (like Scarlet Witch going crazy over her kids).
I get the impression Brevoort's personal taste is more traditional, but since Marvel modernized in the '00s his job has been to try and bring some semblance of traditionalism to the new ideas.
Like Bendis and Millar pitched that the Avengers should add Spider-Man and Wolverine and should become an all-star team like JLA, which Brevoort opposed. He lost on adding Spider-Man and Wolverine but Bendis's New Avengers was not an all-star team but a more traditional mix of stars and B-listers.
(Traditional doesn't always = good, sicne Brevoort seems to have been a big proponent of regressing Spider-Man and keeping him a young loser forever.)