If a girl is awesome it's her being a Mary Sue

>If a girl is awesome it's her being a Mary Sue
>If a guy is awesome it's just him being the Protagonist

Explain.

I too enjoy buzzwords user.

Everyone calls female characters Mary Sues because, seven times out of ten, they are.

This is talking about recent developments by the way, not comics historically.

The vast majority of ALL CHARACTERS written these days are Mary Sues because despite being the most one-dimensional flat, unlikable characters you've ever read you are constantly TOLD how incredible and wonderful and powerful and good and amazing they are and you're told how everyone loves them and nothing goes wrong with them except when it does they're sad but when they're sad that just shows how down-to-earth and human they are! Perfect characters and completely different to eachother, you can tell they're different because they wear different clothes!

Characters have been rendered down to plot engines at their most basic level and everyone is suffering for it, male characters, female characters, characters who are neither somehow. You the reader, you're suffering for it because comics have become an even worse cesspit than they used to be except now you're not allowed to criticize them for fear of being labelled a Nazi by one side and a Marxist by the other.

Thanks big two!

Sad bait.

Females are inherently more flawed than men IRL, so seeing them not being extremely flawed characters in media is very distracting.

That term is pure cancer and never should have escaped its rightful quarantine to fanfiction is the fucking fact.

Just actually articulate what your problem is with a character instead of using some irrelevant ff.net buzzword jesus fuck.

All genre protagonists could be called this.

/thread

You called?

Because girls need role models and need to be empowered so they need to be overtly positive images they can latch on to and can't show any weakness or have any problematic traits that actually counter the positive ones and make them fleshed out, interesting characters...

...and here's a good example of a fleshed out interesting character.

What a shitty chart
You should kys

>...and here's a good example of a fleshed out interesting character.

>...and here's a good example of a fleshed out interesting character.

Straw-man fallacy

>Mary Sue
Christ I hate this term, because it's mutated from "self-insert in a fan work who has no flaws and causes other canon characters to act differently around them and ONLY them" to "character I don't like".

A main character of an original story cannot, by definition, be a Mary Sue. They can be an extraordinarily shitty character by all means, but Mary Sue cannot apply to a character whose story is built around their actions.

Why care what people think about this?

/r9k/ pls go

THANK YOU

I am SO sick of this sh*t "Oh Rey is such a Mary Sue" "America is such a Mary Sue" THEY'RE JUST MAIN CHARACTERS THAT YOU MRA MORONS DON'T LIKE BECAUSE THEY'RE FEMALE AND THAT UPSETS YOU BECAUSE YOU THINK ALL MAIN CHARACTERS HAVE TO BE WHITE STRAIGHT AND MALE

>Rey
>not a Mary Sue
Pick one tumblr

A guy without flaws is still a mary sue.

You're a mary sue, user.

If the awesome male protagonist fucks up, he'll be roasted, as is proper.

If the awesome female protagonist fucks up... She doesn't ever fuck up. Or if she does, it's because she was forced by someone, she was brainwashed by someone, god knows what else. Everything and anything, so long as she isn't responsible for her fuckups.

Rey can be a shit character but not a "Mary Sue," she's from the actual franchise

Mary Sue is from something a 12 year old writes that's not anywhere near official

Rey or whoever can suck and be crap writing but just say that don't use fanfic only terms

>I HATE THE TERM BECAUSE IT EVOLVED TO BE APPLIED TO THINGS BEYOND THE INTENDED TARGETS REEEE
That's how language works.

>girl that's good at everything without any effort or explanation and accomplish the same than other characters that had a lot of training in those fields
>not a mary sue

Literally. It's why gender is a social construct in the first place.

>It's that guy with the language excuse again.
Fuck off.

what is the real difference between fanfiction and non-fiction if they both have similar flaws, such as a Mary Sue?

Gender is biological, not social.
It is not an excuse is reality

You shouldn't bait on Sup Forums unless you want to reach people who actualy believe this crap.

>he doesn't know the difference between sex and gender
Poor child.

Gender is indicative of sexuality though

if it's a bad character, I call it a bad character and explain why I think so

calling a character "mary sue" and ending it there is just lazy and doesn't create any sort of meaningful discussion.

An original story is going to center around its protagonist.

Fanfiction is different. People usually read it to read more about the characters, the official characters, from a franchise.

Putting a new and non-canon character in there and them taking all the attention feels like a bait-and-switch or false advertising for a lot of readers who only came for the official franchise characters for that reason.

This does get more complicated, the franchise characters are usually written like shit anyway and are really honestly OCs, fanfic could be about a canon's worldbuilding, some people like blatant OCs and etc. etc. I'm just explaining the reason for the emotional reaction. It used to be reader of fanfic far preferred even a totally OOC but nominally canon character in fanfiction to new characters taking the narrative's focus away from them, people got pissed and satirized it, the term Mary Sue was born. It's all about taking focus from the official characters though.

I would say sequels like TFA can come closer to MS problems then wholly original stories though. Still, they are original official franchise stories and the narrative is supposed to focus on the main characters.

As you said, user, gender is just a word and subject to change because that's how language works.

Mary Sue only applies to fanfiction. If you dislike an origional female character, just call them a CC, that is, a Cardboard Cunt.

Yes
You see OP ... You're a faggot.

It's why nobody likes you, and you believe idiotic bait images like you bothered to save and use like you did.
I hope this explaination helps you change for the better.

Any character that an user hates get called a Mary Sue on this website.

Mary Sue used to mean perfect character without any flaws,now it means I hate this character for various reasons.

Why do people call her a Mary Sue?

>it's a "I have no refutation so I'll post a reaction image" episode

She's not male

>Sold into slavery by shit family
>Actually thinks they're coming back
>Tries to ditch the main cast
>Wants to go home the whole time
>Gives 0 shits about the force
>Gets caught twice
>Main bad only wants her memory of a map
>only good at Jedi shit because movie is a sequel and can't NOT up the ante

Shit character?
Sure
Mary Sue perfect because self insert and bends the universe to her chosen one perfectness?
No

I'm not gonna spend my time refuting outright bait.

But can't you see that a term like "a mary sue" could be used for non-fanfiction, for characters who may just push beyond what a balanced character should be

"I bypassed a good writer!"

She's a newcomer to the franchise who takes over as a protagonist without a lot of flaws (if any) and does everything with very little effort.

Personally, she felt very flat as a character to me. Probably the most flat major character in the whole movie. My 2c.

Hi

This. When weak liberals try to correct perceived injustice against women they make one dimensional mary sue characters as some sort of 'gotchya' against an imaginary patriarchy. They absolutely refuse to acknowledge any criticism simply by crying sexism, and you end up with terrible characters as a result.

Rey is basically the starwars version of squirrel girl, who's entire purpose is just to be a mary sue. And yes, Starwars has a history of this since they also did it with kid-anakin, and it was equally complained about and cringy back then to.

>it's not a marry sue if it's canon guys..
So I guess it also can't be retarded, have a terrible story, be badly written, badly directed, have shit aesthetics/art, have bad acting, etc. if its canon to?

>...and here's a good example of a fleshed out interesting character.

How does she know all about spaceships and engineering?
I can understand she had been taking apart star destroyers since a very young age but understanding advanced circuitry of an operational craft and completing repairs on the fly seems a little far fetched.
Also the fact she could fly the Millennium Falcon confuses me. How could she have possibly learned? I doubt the force can just teach her that shit

she's better at everything than anyone including flying the millennial falcon when it's te second time she's ever flown a spaceship

My name is Tenkuji Takeru, I'm here to ruin Kamen Rider.

Indeed, biology is the part that doesn't change

>xirs a Marxist
I forgot I'm on Sup Forumsmblr for a minute.

Second?
Am I forgetting something?

Her flaw was she was a self righteous bitch who trained hard to satisfy her ego-boner. Not a Mary Sue, just obnoxious.

she flys it once in the desert which isn't necessarily proof of her being better than Han

and then again when she is flying with Han and does the thing that Han doesn't think will work but it works.

this, she was shown practicing all the time and that made her feel good about herself but as soon as the avatar showed avatar potential she got anus-angry and threw a bitch fit.

Right, I'm still mad at both then. The fact she can fly it really fucks with me

Not really, no, but the jist of the whole term and its definition was always "fan character who takes focus away from the canon characters and that the canon characters focus on because they are so awesome." Without that, it does not fit the definition. You need a new word.

The big reason this specifically is a problem is that the whole bulk of the problem with Mary Sues (takes the story's focus) is exactly what an original story's protagonist is supposed to be doing. Going by these standards, all MCs are Mary Sues. Back in the day, some Mary Sues were extremely flawed or average or unremarkable or even extremely well balanced and extremely well-written. Always, always their real "sin" in the eyes of the fandom was "the story focuses on them not the characters from the canon we are reading this fanfiction for." That's it. They were Mary Sues even if they were better written more flawed and less perfect or remarkable than the canon characters.

...

That's hardly a fucking flaw, and she got exactly what she wanted in the end anyways. Nothing lost, nothing learned.

oh, lets play the pedant game where we obsess over the exact definition of a term that is used broadly and differently by all sorts of folks!

Yes, technically, a Mary Sue can only be a female character. Because the term came from a singular example that was female. That limits the term's utility a bit too much and I can't remember the last time I saw someone claim it should only apply to female character, or if they do they also immediately reference a "Gary Stu" to serve as the male version. So effectively nobody is limiting the term from a sexist standpoint, a term exists for both and most people don't bother with breaking it in half that way.

The word is like a Rorschach test for autism.

Mary Sue can be used for men too. It just isn't used as frequently.

>That's hardly a fucking flaw,
it's literally a personality flaw
>yfw pride is a deadly sin

>To satisfy her ego-boner
Being pig headed is a flaw. Just look at Gaston. No one was as strong as Gaston, as dumb as Gaston, could be thrown of the roof like Gastoooon.

It means so many things that are totally different that it is worthless. It's incredibly fucking lazy and stupid to use that term.

Here are the things it can mean:

1. Takes focus from canon characters
2. Gets too much attention from other characters
3. Too many other characters like them
4. Too many characters fall in love with them
5. Have some trait that is too remarkable
6. Is too perfect overall
7. Is way too flawed but narrative does not acknowledge it
8. Is way too flawed but other characters don't acknowledge it
9. Is way too flawed but creator does no acknowledge it
10. Is a self-insert
11. Is a bland "everyman" audience insert
12. The creator likes them too much
13. Is too powerful
14. Has too many different powers
15. Has too few powers to believably survive in the universe
16. Not called out or punished for their mistakes
17. Never makes any mistakes
18. Don't believe they could learn a skill they learned so quickly
19. Are quirky
20. Have some unusual trait like purple eyes and you think that's stupid
21. They defeated your favorite character in a fight
22. You just don't like the character
23. The character is a main character

And many many more sometimes contradictory definitions.

Instead say exactly what your problem with the character is, be articulate and explain, use critical thinking and your words. It explains much better.

>The vast majority of ALL CHARACTERS written these days are Mary Sues

This is correct.

Even if it's a valid flaw, it's pretty much never brought up as such again, nor are any other flaws of actual note. A one-time cameo does not a Mary Sue unmake.

...

up4chan'd

haha I like you're joke
+dingled1

Ray IS a mary sue though

>Instead say exactly what your problem with the character is, be articulate and explain, use critical thinking and your words. It explains much better.
I get the feeling that the people who use buzzwords don't even know why they dislike something, they never ask themselves "why do i hate this character" instead of "why is this character shit"

It literally is brought up at least 3-4 times.

>you're

She's a force sensitive in the SW universe it makes you a damn super powered super genius, a 10 year old force sensitive was using the force to build and race pods and built his own service Droid, compared to the prequels and the expanded universe this shit is toned downed. Your talking about a naturally occurring ability that let's you predict and dodge or block light speed projectiles. Building your own lightsaber is a step in Jedi training, not even getting into mind control, lightning from no where, and if your a good enough Jedi even one that served the dark side most of his life, you can live forever as a force ghost. Completely untrained force sensitives are still capable of retardedly unbelievable shit

Yeah having the force makes her OP, but it has fuck all to do with her character

newfag

froghater

h-her character has the force, that IS her character

That's lost all meaning nowadays. Used to mean something. Now it's just a term for a main character someone doesn't like so OBVIOUSLY they're a Mary Sue.

>Instead say exactly what your problem with the character is, be articulate and explain, use critical thinking and your words.
But that's hard. I want to be able to use a buzzword to dismiss something and justify my knee-jerk reaction so I don't have to think about anything.

"Mary Sue" was SUPPOSED to be a term you only ever used to describe fan fiction, because it was meant to explain to fanfic writers what they were doing that made their work identifiable as the work of a teenage girl who doesn't know what she's doing and is just making some wish-fulfillment garbage to shlick to.

But then the internet decided "Y'know what, I don't know anything about writing but I sure think I do, all this professional work people are getting paid for looks indistinguishable from fan fiction to me!"

Yeah that's the whole fucking premise of the franchise. Luke isn't any more interesting he's just in better movies

Luke is shit tier through the movies and is only able to take on his dad after training and when his dad is having a moral shift and kills himself

this

This says more about Kylo sucking compared to Vader.

>Be a female protagonist
>A small child asks you for help with his math homework.
>You correctly tell him what two plus two is.

>Sup Forums: FUCKING MARY SUE

>Be a female protagonist
>Read a book
>It's no problem because you know how to read.

>Sup Forums: FUCKING MARY SUE

>Be a female protagonist
>accomplish any task successfully, including but not limited to breathing, speaking normally, not shitting your pants


>Sup Forums: FUCKING MARY SUE


>Be a female protagonist


>Sup Forums: FUCKING MARY SUE

>Fan fiction
Get rid of the fan and you just have fiction. Besides, what are tv shows but monetized and networked fan fiction? Case in point; Korra.

no it doesn't Rey is shown to be overpowered throughout the movie
>oh wow I can just automatically do this mind corruption jutsu and escape right when I need to the most
>oh wow I can just beat the bad guy whose had saber training when this is the second time I've ever picked up a light saber
>oh wow I can fly a spaceship with absolutely zero training because I used to hack off pieces of junk from an old junker back home to sell
>oh wow actually I can fix it mid-flight and fly it better than it's original pilot

>male fps protagonist
>"..."
>female fps protagonist
>"Whoa, what was that noise? Was it an alien? I better find a place to hide. Maybe in this clos-WHOA did you see that monster jump out? Heh, he sure was ugly"

Its kinda funny how guys are mocked for finding role models in fiction but with women its encouraged.

>despite being the most one-dimensional flat, unlikable characters you've ever read you are constantly TOLD how incredible and wonderful and powerful and good and amazing they are and you're told how everyone loves them and nothing goes wrong with them except when it does they're sad but when they're sad that just shows how down-to-earth and human they are!
Sounds like you just described Captain Marvel or America Chavez

>guys are mocked for finding role models in fiction
only if you're fucking autistic and want to be sasuke: edgelord of darkness

Name some non-Mary Sue female characters.

Mariko from Shogun

Explain Squirrel Girl.

Would you be confused if I called you a faggot, questioning why calling someone "a bundle of sticks" is an insult? No, because you understand language has evolved to make that a derogatory term for homosexuality.

Likewise Mary sue changed from flat 1d fan character that is perfect, and even her flaws are endearing, to a flat 1d character that is perfect, and even their flaws are endearing. Just dropping "fan" from the definition isn't a big stretch

post mary sues

>Protestants were the first anti-Mary-Sue brigade of ancient times who hated Catholic fan fiction

...