Hi Sup Forums, i'm not really into comics...

hi Sup Forums, i'm not really into comics, but i keep listening from people who neither are that suicide squad sucked and logan was great. i watched both and, for me, i received just what i was expected, an action film in which spend two hours. so, can you please tell me, what makes good or bad superhero movie?

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transcripts.wikia.com/wiki/Suicide_Squad
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People repeating what they were told.

Logan:

>I hear you at night; you're not sleeping; you don't wanna talk about that... Or the booze you're drinking... Or the puss you're wiping away from your knuckles. Or the blood I wash from your clothes. Or the... fresh wounds in your chest; the ones that aren't healing... And I'm pretty sure you don't wanna talk about the fact that you can't read the label on that bottle...

>What did you do? Answer me! Why are we here? No one should live like this, drugged in a fucking tank!
>It's for your own good.
>No, no! It's not! You're waiting for me to die...

>Logan, you still have time.

>This has been the most perfect sleep I've had in years... and I don't deserve it, do I?

>It wasn't me. It wasn't me.

>It's better this way. 'Cause I suck at this. Bad shit happens to people I care about, understand me?
>Then I'll be fine.

>You had a nightmare.
>Do you have nightmares?
>Si. People hurt me.
>Mine are different.
>¿Por qué?
>I hurt people.

>Qué es?
>You know what it is. It's made out of adamantium. That's what they put inside of us. That's why it can kill us. Probably what's killing me now. That was a long time ago. I kept it as a reminder of what I am. Now I keep it to, uh... actually I, uh... I was thinking of shooting myself with it. Like Charles said.
>I've hurt people too.
>You're gonna have to learn how to live with that.
>They were bad people.
>All the same.

>Laura... Don't be what they made you.
>Daddy ... No ...
>So this is what it feels like ...

>tfw the movie only had one brief shot of Laura's feet

Suicide Squad:

>Brother I have freed you.
>Where are we?
>The same world only much later
>What happened?
>The humans turned against us
>But they worshipped us? We were gods to them
>Now they worship machines. So I will build a machine that will destroy them all. Build your strength. Feed on them. And wait for me to return. Enchantress.

>Listen up! In your necks injection you got, it's a nanite explosive. the size of a rice grain but it's powerful as a hand grenade. You disobey me, you die. You try to escape, you die. You otherwise irritate or vex me, and guess what? You die.
>I'm known to be quite vexing. I'm just forewarning you.
>Lady, shut up! This is the deal. You're going somewhere very bad to do something that'll get you killed. But until that happens you're my problem.
>So was that like a pep talk?
>Yeah. That was a pep talk. There's your shit. Grab what you need for a fight. We're wheels up in 10.
>You might wanna work on your team motivation thing. You heard of Phil Jackson? He's like a gold standard. OK? Triangle, bitch. Study

>This is Katana. She's got my back. She can cut all of you in half with one sword stroke. Just like mowing the lawn. I would advise not getting killed by her. Her sword traps the souls of its victims.
>Harley Quinn. Nice to meet ya. Love your perfume. What is that? The stench of death?
>Korosu ka?
>Easy cowgirl. Ain't that kind of mission. Have a seat.
>She seems nice.

>Flag, it's a negative. they were engaged when you were, but we've lost them.
>Now you belong to my army.
>Seriously? What the hell is wrong with you people?
>We're bad guys. It's what we do.

Your replies have been perfect. It's not about "what makes a superhero movie good or bad." It's about what makes a movie good or bad. If you really can't tell the difference in quality between Logan and Suicide Squad, that's not something we can help with.

Sounds like you have a problem appreciating movies, not comics. I'm sure will help you out.

Feel free to come back if you ever want to read a comic book.

Not that I disagree, but I can tell you're bias. You left out any (the only) part of SS that had any feeling.

>It's not about "what makes a superhero movie good or bad." It's about what makes a movie good or bad.

FUCKING THIS.

It's not about the type of story, it's about whether the story is told well. "Suicide Squad" told its story in a shitty way. "Logan" told its story in an excellent way. If you cannot appreciate the difference, you require more experience in watching films and appreciating storytelling.

>I can tell you're bias

"biased". It's "biased". "Bias" is the noun, "biased" is the adjective. LEARN THE FUCKING LANGUAGE, ASSHOLE.

Exactly. I can understand if OP was confused about the difference in quality between something like The Avengers and The Dark Knight, but not seeing the difference between Logan and Suicide Squad is just asinine.

>the difference in quality between something like The Avengers and The Dark Knight

Yeah, uh...there is a stark difference in quality (pun sincerely not intended) between "Avengers" and "Dark Knight", and it is not even that hard to see. I love both films, but I am nowhere near dumb enough to say that they are even on the same level, much less that "Avengers" was better than "Dark Knight".

>the only) part of SS that had any feeling.

What part was this?
There's a script here btw:
transcripts.wikia.com/wiki/Suicide_Squad

Well that's kind of what I'm saying.

They're both good movies for different reasons. I can see why that might warrant a thread for a casual.

The only "feeling" in it was hamfisted out of character bullshit that came out of nowhere. Prove me wrong.

The thing with Logan I felt was if you stripped away the comic book aspects, its a fine Oscar bait level movie.
>aging man dealing with life and a growing sickness
>taking care of his dying and old father
>discovers a daughter he never knew he had
>they go on a road trip
>life lessons abound about enjoying life while you have time

Strip away the superhero trappings and "Logan" is basically a Western.

>Strip away the superhero trappings and "Logan" is basically a Western.

Mangold did that with his first film too, strip away the cop elements of Cop Land and it's essentially a Western.

Then he followed it up with an ACTUAL Western in 3:10 To Yuma, which is a fucking great movie. You can see the DNA of what he would do in Logan in that film.

The original 3:10 to yuma was so much better

Suicide Squad was kind of a schizophrenic nightmare, tone-wise. It starts with a bunch of exposition dumps punctuated by quick vignettes of the Squad getting captured, all while its randomly jumping through a rock-and-roll's greatest hits playlist that does nothing to give the movie a cohesive tone and, in fact, makes it feel noticeably choppier. And that's just the first 20 minutes.

The rest of the story is a slog through a pitch black city watching several one-dimensional characters kill uninspired zombie men. This brings to mind another issue with Suicide Squad. Are we supposed to think these characters are bad dudes who form a family unit ala Guardians of the Galaxy, or a bunch of psychopaths who are thrown together and hate each other's guts? The movie tries to do both, leaving the ending, where Diablo claims the Squad as his new family, feeling hollow and unearned.

The stakes are the same, vague, "end-of-the-world-portal-in-the-sky" that we've seen a dozen times before, but with even less reason to care. Killer Croc, Captain Boomerang, and Katana went a whole two acts with out doing anything, and when they did, they're contributions were swimming, throwing boomerang with a camera, and nothing, respectively.

In short, the movie was the cinematic equivalent of a Call of Duty Zombies map, but somehow with even less charm and warmth.

>The original 3:10 to yuma was so much better

Honestly I don't agree. It's a good Western, but I think the remake expanded on the themes of the original story and made it "darker" and more action-packed without sacrificing the humanity.

There are individual scenes in the original that I like more then the remake, but I think overall I prefer the 07 version.

>Suicide Squad was kind of a schizophrenic nightmare, tone-wise. It starts with a bunch of exposition dumps punctuated by quick vignettes of the Squad getting captured, all while its randomly jumping through a rock-and-roll's greatest hits playlist that does nothing to give the movie a cohesive tone and, in fact, makes it feel noticeably choppier. And that's just the first 20 minutes.

This is a good time to point out that WB had the people who cut the original trailer for the film - the "Bohemian Rhapsody" trailer that got so much good press - come in to re-edit the entire film so it would match that trailer's editing.

Just another reason why this movie was a shitshow.

Subjective opinions that are relatively meaningless outside individual viewpoints.

So everyone is both wrong and right.
Welcome to adulthood.

op here, i am not an experct, but i don't consider logan to be outstanding in any way, also replying to i fell that the logan character is designed to appeal to a demanding public but does not fully satisfies, i think that leon the professional did a better construction of the relation between a murderer and a child (even though leon and logan personalities are different) and the old-ex-murderer was better portrayed in some westerns, i think once upon a time in the west is a good example, but i don't truly remember

really? i don't think avengers is any good, while i think dark night is very good, agan, i think here the conflict (a straight-forward hero who confronts an irrational evil) is better developed that the one in logan (the old man taking care of the kid, the outcasts) which i think have been portrayed better in previous movies (i think even the first x-men did the outcast thing better, but i can't recall properly)

however, tell me what you think

It's not that there's an objective criteria for good and bad superhero movies, it's that you have low standards.

also forgive bad english

>the logan character is designed to appeal to a demanding public but does not fully satisfies

...what?

People's tastes are subjective.

That being said, be aware of people's tendency to bandwagon.

i think some of the characteristics of his persona are well-spected in a critically acclaimed film:
>old man fighting with alcoholism
>the killer and the child
>person with superpowers evading society but internally willing to find a place where to fit
which is great and very well-fitting to the wolverine, but i can't help but feel that some of the development in these characteristics was somewhat "simplified". i specifically felt the technically-you-are-her-father development somewhat forced.

Personally, I really liked him taking responsibility for his daughter. Any faggot can wash his hands of it and say it isn't his problem. It takes a real man to take responsibility and try to do their best by the kid. There are far to many men these days who don't have the balls to fulfill their responsibilities, Logan should never be one of them.

totally agree, but a great person in real life does not mean a well-written character (which i'm not saying is the case)
side note i have would prefer that the girl was the biological daughter of logan with some random woman, since it was an r-rated film, but:
>it enters in conflict with the experiments in children plot
>and i don't know if wolverine is that kind of asshole, lol, tha's why i ask Sup Forums and not Sup Forums

I've seen ss and I have absolutely no idea what scene you are referring to. Every scene I think you might be reffering to was either ham fisted or so absolutely retarded I almost thought it might be an attempt at humor.

>i can't help but feel that some of the development in these characteristics was somewhat "simplified"

There are two reasons for this:

1. A film has a finite running time, and an entire character cannot be developed into a 100% complete person in just two hours, so films take certain shortcuts with characterisation to get its point across.
2. "Logan" assumed at least a passing familiarity with the Logan character as portrayed by Hugh Jackman over the past two decades, which allowed for further shortcuts in characterisation and the avoidance of lengthy exposition about Logan's past.

While you can argue that the "Laura is his kid" development is "forced" (which is kinda dumb because HEY IT'S A FICTIONAL STORY IT'S NOT LIKE THEY PUT X-23 INTO A HISTORICALLY ACCURATE DOCUDRAMA), that really did not affect how the film pulled off the characterisation of Old Man Logan.

>i have would prefer that the girl was the biological daughter of logan with some random woman, since it was an r-rated film

Except then she would not be a mutant because the film explicitly said mutants were both dying and not being born. That would remove the entire premise behind Laura being a genetically-engineered mutant made from Logan's DNA.

>bias
At least one of those scenes was a show case.

>Except then she would not be a mutant because the film explicitly said mutants were both dying and not being born. That would remove the entire premise behind Laura being a genetically-engineered mutant made from Logan's DNA.
you're right, i forgot about that, kek

i'll probably re-watch the film with the new perspectives exposed in this thread, thanks, faggots.

>simplified stories

THIS. What you've said is 100%
I'm actually amazed that they can get anything close to the comic's characterization given that it's basically a lifetime commitment of relating to those characters when you're following a comic.
There's a great deal of subtlety that they can reveal in a decade of issues relayed in just a monthly 20 pages that wouldn't be applicable in a 2 hour movie where words and action fly by simultaneously in a matter of seconds.
The fault is in the medium itself.

Avengers and Dark Knight are good movies, but no one said they were on the same level of good. Saying Logan and Suicide Squad are the same level of quality, or even in the same league of quality, is ridiculous and an insult to cinematic storytelling

Yikes. What kind of a brainlet do you have to be to not be able to form your own opinions on what you personally enjoy?