Leaving all your hatred and bias aside...

Leaving all your hatred and bias aside, what would you say is the biggest issue with the current state of the Star Wars universe?

I think the main problem is that they really don't have a North set for the franchise.

With TLJ and Johnson scrapping up previous plot points, it was extremely obvious that they seriously don't have a story planned and are just making everything up on the go.

Also, maybe not such a large issue, but it really hurts to see how they keep introducing extremely op mechanics/expansions into the Lore of the universe that are simply completely incoherent or imbalanced, for example the fucking cruiser FTL torpedo, that shit seriously invalidates any space battle.

Or how Rey's parents supposedly sold her into slavery, even though in TFA you could clearly see she was just abandoned, not sold, and that she was never a slave or performed slavery jobs

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My two biggest problems with the current trilogy:

1. there is no real overarching plot. feels like these characters don't really have a goal in mind of what they want.

2. the movies in general are very poorly directed, passionless products. they are edited and shot like any other blockbuster (marvel films, jurassic world, star trek), shot as inoffensively as possible. it's clear the people making it care about making a competent product but don't really feel passionate about what they want to say in the movies. as flawed as the prequels were at least you got the sense that lucas cared about what he was doing and had his own vision.

>what would you say is the biggest issue with the current state of the Star Wars universe?

The fact that Disney is incessant on killing off OT characters. Han, Luke, Akbar, Leia is probably next. These characters have survived as icons for over 30 years, what's the point in bringing them back only to immediately kill them off?

I was really looking forward to Han, Luke, and Leia reuniting but nope, Disney had one movie to do that and they fucked it up. Now it's too late.

let's be honest
Star Wars was always a basic/generic story

but the OT had
1. Great music
2. Endearing main characters with chemistry and interesting visual designs
3. Darth Vader

the new movies have none of those things, and also a tone that's inconsistent to both the originals and prequels. Talk shit about the prequels all you want, they still feel like Star Wars. TFA and TLJ feel like Marvel movies.

no enough alien diversity
previous movies had more aliens shown, some had even use (Chewie, Admiral Ackbar) while in new movies it's all human. they could replace that chink with an alien, they could replace that pink haired fuck with aliens too

The world of the movies feels tiny and empty. We get no sense of past events, no hints of broader history, no idea of who's in charge, and no new and innovative designs. Also, pretty much all the aliens and ships are this dull shade of grey or brown. Visually boring.
If these movies weren't hanging off the Star Wars name, nobody would want to come back to their setting.

JJ Abrams

The pacing of TLJ and TFA was terrible. and the characters are uninspired

There is zero inspiration. Everything is based on what we have already seen because without george lucas's imagination to power the universe there is nothing.

For TLJ, I felt like it was a lack of cohesion and pacing. Didn't really feel any tension or conflict building up until the very end where it all just came out at once. It was just Rey dicking around on an island, Luke acting all emo and depressed, Finn and some random chink girl dicking around in a casino, some random space battles, and then an epic fight at the end. It all just happened too abruptly.

youtu.be/Kj3opk1QFTM

IMO, the big issue is they're trying to build on a movie series that began 40 years ago. The OT was a whole different beast with production design that date the movies and set restrictions on what can be done and still "feel" like SW. The prequels went full retard and are pretty much ignored for the most part. Trying to build on top of those two trilogies is like trying to build a 50-foot tower by stacking Legos on top of Lincoln Logs on top of an Erector Set. Shit is never going to match up and it's always going to look and feel messy and piss off large swaths of viewers.

The best thing to do is to just reboot the whole goddamn thing. Use the same setting but make it markedly different so people know you aren't fucking around. Follow different characters. OR, just recast the same characters and rewrite the entire history enough so it doesn't feel like Gus van Sant's Psycho remake (but across 6 movies) and use the interim time to flesh out actually good sequels to the OT stories. But Disney will never go that route because that means completely retooling their brand, which means drops in sales and having to rebuild every goddamn SW toy and ride and related product with the new actors' faces and with the new story beats.

So really they should just fucking quit making SW movies.

The main issue is they hastily rebooted it without any plan or history in mind.
The second biggest issue is that retarded media and normies pretended it was good instead of telling Disney to fuck themselves.

The story sucks and the source material was mediocre to begin with.

Part of that is because JJ set up TFA like the first act of a three act play. (Which is his "specialty" -- first acts). Pacing was bound to be shit. Rian jumps in, shits on everything, and writes his like it's the third act.

This. The OT had a simple story with passable dialogue and coasted on cutting edge effects, music, memorable characters, and interesting worldbuilding. The PT had a more complex story but it looked like a video game cut scene and the acting and dialogue were atrocious. There were no clever plots, there were few interesting characters, and most of the beloved aspects are the music and visuals. This is hardly a foundation on which to build a fucking movie empire. They should've just done what the EU books did and write encapsulated stories happening in the background within this universe. That way they could've changed up the aesthetic, tone, and plot as much as they'd like.

Hey luke you want a sip from my tittyballs?

I agree it would be pretty easy to do too. Just write some story in planet Namekooine and have Han Solo show up as some contraband lord so it ties to the main story but make 95% of it about new characters with a totally separate story. Go ham on the creative department, make some new aliens and bizarro planets and whatever. Everyone would be happy.

They're still making them instead of trying to make anything original

The Last Jedi? More like
*squat*
*BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMPBLLLLLRLRLRLRLRLRDFFGGGGGHH*

The simple problem is that there was never a guy who came up with a solid direction for the new trilogy. There is no honest creative drive behind these films.

JJ was told he could make a Star Wars film. So he did. But he had to make it up in a short period of time under the weight of executives and his own lack of creativity. So naturally, he didn't come up with something new and he made a homage.

This fucked the trilogy because he had to make the state of the galaxy roughly similar to the OT, which means the only good story to tell in the trilogy is overthrowing an empire. But you can't top the OT. So what do you do?

They should have taken some time, hired a single director for the whole trilogy, and given him a year or two to come up with a story for all three, then go into pre-production.

As it is, these movies have no reason to exist other than shekel grabbing. There's no artistic purpose. There's no art. Only money.

Not enough milkies

Trying to make star wars what is isnt: political messages, subversions, et cetera

As far as I see it the only way they can redeem it is by following Kylo Ren's plan to rule the galaxy alongside Rey. They say the force needs balance, but at the same time try to wipe out all the dark. At least with Kylo as the dark, and Rey as the light, they don't repeat the cycle of war and Jedi/Sith that's plagued their galaxy for all 8 movies so far. Like he said, she's still holding on, just let it die.

Sadly I don't think JJ has the cajones to do something like that.

That thanks to TFA and TLJ there are now more bad Star Wars movies than good ones, which makes Star Wars as a whole bad. The technical problems with TFA, mainly the scorn for previously established characters and ignorance of the universe displayed by both writers and directors could easily be repaired by shitcanning these hack scum and hiring even moderately skilled people to replace them.

>"Obviously, with Carrie having passed away, it shook everybody," Kennedy told Entertainment Weekly. She added that the creative team left behind their original plans for Leia in Episode IX in light of Fisher's death, saying, "We pretty much started over."

Are they going to pull it off? Or are they going to keep doing what they've been doing?

Problem is milking the same old stories in slightly different ways. Same old evil tyrannical government vs group that rebels, same old dark side asshole characters vs light side saints. Nothing original or new and this time it lacks the direction and freshness the OT had. And you also pretty much know how it will end, with the light triumphing good. And that is a problem almost all Star Wars faces, not just the current universe.

>They say the force needs balance, but at the same time try to wipe out the dark.

In the SW universe, that is what balance is. 100% light is the Force in balance, because the dark is supposed to be cancer.

The problem with that is it's the synopsis of the second film in the trilogy. You make the midpoint the joining of Rey and Kylo. But if they do it in this movie, it pretty much has to be the climax. That's not a very satisfactory climax because it poses many more questions than it resolves. In fact, it resolves nothing but that personal relationship, and even then, it's more of an evolution than resolution.

If you have Kylo sacrifice the First Order in the joining, then it's going to be read as Kylo joining the light side, and that'll be a boring retread of the OT. If Rey sacrifices the Rebellion, it's her falling to the Dark side. If they lave each faction, then all the other characters are still at war and it becomes essentially a romance with the main character's eloping at the end.

I honestly don't think JJ can make a movie that isn't either a boring re-make, or an inexplicable mess like TLJ. I think he'll go with the former — that's pretty much his entire career anyway. Problem is, he can't have liberal use of his MysteryBox(tm) because everybody's expecting a resolution to the trilogy.

This whole thing was a mistake. An abortion is the only answer.

oh my bad

It's Star Wars so the science doesn't need to be realistic. But it needs to be somewhat consistent. At least consistent enough so that if you don't think too hard about it, you can suspend your disbelief at least while the movie is running. But they're not even doing that anymore.

Having said that, I don't think anything in TLJ was quite as bad as Starkiller in TFA. It made no sense in terms of scale. Took me right out of the immersion. It was embarrassing.

>it was extremely obvious that they seriously don't have a story planned and are just making everything up on the go.
WELCOME TO JJ ABRAHMS

The lack of a overarching plan is definitely the biggest problem. They need a Kevin Feige for Star Wars. The next big problem is that they had to rework all three of the main characters to the point that they no longer act like they would just to reset the universe to being just like it was before A New Hope.

>don't have a story planned and are just making everything up on the go
this is not a problem unless you hire rian johnson to follow up your pilot episode

1. Disney engenders no good will in and of itself and it's one of their products now
2. Marketing overkill for an already massive movie.
3. Because 2., movies have to be safe and predictable which makes 1. even worse.
4. Because 3., there is no authorship; the whole franchise was starting to look like a director graveyard what with nobody other than Juju Xeroxahams being able to hold on to a job; half of Edwards' movie was rewritten and reshot, Trevorrow got shitcanned, whoever it was in the Solo movie got tilted and Rian is playing the patsy "oh no, nothing was written" (yeah, right) and taking credit for shit he just said yes to and being rewarded with a 3 movie deal just to try and clear the air.
5. It's a nerdfest in a climate where trendy nerdyness is on the way out. It started with the prequels, it hit apex with Marvel and is now fast becoming fucking annoying. Couple with 2. & 3. and people are going to hit SW saturation pretty god damned fast. And we're getting 1 movie per year? Crazy.

Ignoring politics and pushed agendas, Star Wars was taking ideas never thought of and creating new and cool concepts.

Blowing up the Death Star, Knocking over AT-AT with tow cables, crushing an AT-ST between two logs, these were all concepts that were original and never thought of before and before the original series were never seen before with a story that broke new ground.

There is nothing original in the nu-Star Wars, it's all either been done before and is supposed to be forced nostalgia or it's a blatant rip-off of something in order to sell toys (all the animals in this new movie can be related to a pokemon).

The biggest issue of all though is there is no story. When George Lucas first started creating Star Wars he already made like 7 different scripts and stories for the franchise to go. Disney just made JJ write a movie and he's been reported to have zero idea on where the story was going to go and because of that there is no story and driving point for this new trilogy (if it will even be a trilogy, there's not really any reason to see the next one) so when you have zero idea of where the story will go, rehash things from past movies, and bring nothing new to the table what exactly do you expect to make the franchise successful and fresh?

There's just no hook for the next movie. No mystery, no loose plot threads to follow. No unexplored interactions with (living) characters. It's just gonna be TFO showing off their new expensive super weapon and Rey and Kylo's final showdown. I'm already bored.

Not in the new one
Now Kylo and Rey exist at the same time because lol balance

When they brought up the whole Force in balance and no Jedi stuff, I was really hoping for some KotOR II Kreia shit where the lines between the sides get really questioned and blurred. But no, they had to throw that away and stick to the overdone good vs bad line.

Really wish they would make a KotOR movie or something similar to that. Disney is just rehashing the same crap with no big goal or story to tell.

Basically, JJ made the story have a bunch of mysterious stuff like he always does, but he didn't have any payoff for any of them, like he always does. He just let you imagine all the possible answers and you were happy.

Then he handed the whole thing to Johnson, who isn't blameless at all, he's a fucking hack did you see Looper? But JJ handed the whole thing to him and Johnson was like "okay so where did Snoke come from and who is Rey's parents and who is..." and JJ just cut him off and said "I didn't write any of that, just write it yourself, do whatever you want". And at that point the guy was way, way, way over his fucking head, and if there had been a 12 person writing/oversight team like their was on TFA it probably would have been okay even then but Disney took heat for making TFA too safe and too much by committee and formula so they were just like "It's all you RJ, you have TOTAL CONTROL over our trillion dollar franchise, do whatever you want"

So he wrote and directed the entire thing and just said "Who is Snoke? He's nobody, were just gonna kill him off, no explanation where he came from or who he was. Who were Rey's parents? Nobody. They were just a bunch of drunks who sold her off like scrap. Who were the Knights of Ren? Nobody. Lets do a chase sequence on casino planet and have the aliens who don't even exist in the same timeline or galaxy as earth dress like and affect the mannerisms of 1930's tycoons. What happened with Luke? He almost murdered his teenage nephew for something that might happen someday, even though he once risked his life to redeem his father who was a mechanical serial-killer who once hacked an entire school full of little kids into pieces with a sword. How are we going to resolve this space battle? Lets weaponize hyperpspace and ruin ever space battler retroactively and going forward. Etc, etc and we ended up with a complete fucking shitpile.

TLJ commits a way bigger sin. The fundamentals of star wars that get a free pass (like how magic gets a free pass in harry potter or lotr) are the force and FTL travel. I'm not so bothered by expanding on force abilities but turning hyperdrives into a weapon is beyond retarded.

I think this really hits it dead on

Here's an example of how committee screen writing actually hurts a film:
They hire women and minorities as an inclusiveness and progressive statement. This makes the company look good to most people and will hopefully bring in market demographics.
Now comes the actual problem. Hiring them as a statement means anything that happens with the characters afterwards will also be seen as a statement. Negative things happening to those characters, no matter how much it would serve the story, will be seen as reflective of that entire group,
What about Rey and Kylo switching sides, light to dark and dark to light? Kylo sees the error of his ways while Rey tries to gain power in order to help people any way she can. Have a BAD END where Kylo has to kill Rey because he knows she is too far gone.
Impossible. Making the girl become evil would make even normies unironically go
>what did they mean by this?
and that would hurt their profits.

THIS. This is exactly what happened. Especially the part where JJ says "I didn't write any of that". Because that is literally what he does.

>somehow makes it about hiring women and minorities

it's inauthentic.

there's a difference between authenticity and realism. authenticity doesn't demand you subscribe to the same rules set for reality, but it does insist that you stay loyal to and work within the boundaries of the universe you've created.

it just feels in-organic. the original three films were the jumping off point, they set a trajectory that the new films must adhere to if they want any authenticity. they miserably failed at that in an obvious drive to reassert the rebels vs. empire status quo without even attempting a proper bridging narrative.

not only that but the two forces are now polarised to the point of comedy. the authoritarian starkness of the empire has become a pantomime act while the rough and ready rebellion has now become a college safe space.

the film's exist in an uncanny valley between parody/homage and original film making.

> Making the girl become evil would make even normies unironically go
> >what did they mean by this?

Yea. The one new white male character ends up the good guy while muh empowered womyn gets oppressed.

I feel like the way the stories are told in the Disney trilogy makes no sense, the structure of the narrative always seems to follow the following
>have plan, execute plan but fail, coincidence/ plot device saves the day
Finn has plan to let fleet escape, go to planet but get jailed, get bailed out by deltoro. Resistance has plan to get away, but they get caught, but light speed ramming saves them. Plan to go out to destroy big laser that will break into their base, but they fail, but Luke force projects and saves the day. So safe, so formulaic. Narrative seems to be pushed forward by coincidences, so much so that the only way it would make sense is if 'the force' was somehow manipulating reality to make things bend the protagonists way, but by doing so there is no sense of drama at all because everything works out in the end. It doesn't help that whenever any potentially dramatic moment is about to happen, someone has to make a stupid quip to ruin the moment.

Totally forgot about the Knights of Ren, great point bringing that up. I really thought they were going to be like new age Sith or dark siders different from the Sith when I first saw them and heard people speculating. But they dont even get mentioned once. No continuity or cohesion in this trilogy whatsoever so far. Its been like two separate standalone movies.

it's just not interesting at all. it's like if the newer transformers were made as star wars movies. but i guess even those flicks have more thoughtful character/story arcs.

>asgard, home of the gods, is blown to bits
>ah nope foundations gone xddd
at least give thor and loki time to react to seeing their fucking home and sister taking it up the bum
fuck this quip era

But that's my point.Politics restrict the story. By taking a stance they've locked themselves out of options which could have made the movies more interesting.

the biggest sign that there was no plan for any of this (other than rian literally admitting there was no plan) is that the entire plot of TFA revolves around finding Luke using a map that he left behind so he could be found. Only for him to then go "go away i didn't want to be found." No matter what they do in the 9 this trilogy is always going to feel like a mess when you watch it back (implying anyone will watch it again) purely because the fucking plot doesn't even line up correctly.

>Or how Rey's parents supposedly sold her into slavery, even though in TFA you could clearly see she was just abandoned, not sold, and that she was never a slave or performed slavery jobs

Could be a baking and switch. I mean Obi was told like that Darth Vader killed his father

I just saw it and I think you're all fucking crazy. It was the best SW movie of them all, even better than V and IV. I liked that they were ballsy enough to take actual risks and not play it safe again like TFA

Bait*

>for example the fucking cruiser FTL torpedo, that shit seriously invalidates any space battle.
No, it doesn't.

People have already stopped posting about it because they've realized they're retarded for complaining about it.

Try and keep up.

ctd.
This doesn't even talk about all the other problems in characterization
>First Order aka grossly incompetent, goofy weenies that somehow own the galaxy and build weapons of mass destruction on a scale not even the empire could do but cant do anything but fail spectacularly in the movies
>Finn, Stormtrooper and self proclaimed custodian aka walking plot device to get into the enemy's bases and capital ships, know the enemies weakness, they even introduce the notion that he knows this information as comedy without any sort of explanation.
>Snoke aka generic bad guy with no characterization at all
>Luke, the same guy who tried to turn Vader good, handles Kylo in the completely opposite manner
>Leia doing flying shit with no explanation?

I dont understand it.

Looper and Brick were overrated and kind of crap. I'm not surprised Rian Johnson having full control over a SW has led to so many people pissed off at how retarded it is.

Kathleen Kennedy's entire career was being a yes man to Spielberg. She clearly has no idea what makes successful films; making her showrunner was the act of a stupid and desperate company that conned George Lucas into handing over his studio to a trusted friend who backstabbed him. No one else in the Disney chain of command above her has anything but managerial experience with filmmaking and they can't tell her what to do. Kathleen Kennedy will be the death of Star Wars due to her incompetence and greed.

Except the critical rating for all Star Wars movies except the prequel trilogy is quite positive.

I just didn't like the end, it felt rushed and didn't match the scenery with the other plots.

the jewish subversion and demoralization
they made luke skywalker drink cum and people still cant see that they are being fucked with

>hey i know you paid me to wash your car but i took a risk instead and shit through your sunroof, i hope you like it because it was a ballsy move on my part

>what would you say is the biggest issue with the current state of the Star Wars universe?
It's completely incoherent.

She was sold as a sex slave for a pedo alien. When she got old, her master lost interest and she went on her own.

>what would you say is the biggest issue with the current state of the Star Wars universe?
There is no underlying story, like the past two trilogies.

OT: There's a bad empire. The ending point is that the rebellion will defeat the empire. Skywalker story is laid on top of that.

Prequels: There's a sith trying to beat the jedi, and a "chosen one". The sith eventually defeats the Jedi and we see the rise of the empire. "Chosen one"'s fall is tied to this.

New Trilogy: There's a first order, and a resistance. Assumed ending is that the resistance will defeat the first order? But the main villain of the First Order was destroyed in the 2nd movie. Is Rey a chosen one or someone important? No, she has no real ties to the actual plot, except to act as an opposite to Ben Solo. So this is about either Ben Solo's complete fall or his redemption maybe?

The Ben Solo thing is the only real thing that sort of seems like it'll hold through all 3 movies. There's no weight to the First Order, because there's no real villain that makes you take them seriously. That might have been Snoke, but he's gone.


They decided right off they wanted to have a trilogy, but without actually coming up with a reason for their to BE a trilogy (what is the main story behind all 3 movies going to be that ties it all together?)

>New Trilogy: YOU'RE A FUCKING WHITE MALE

Not-Empire vs not-rebels for three fucking movies. Again.
I would have taken anything else. But I get it. After the prequels and a 4 billion dollar purchase Disney did everything to play it safe and assure fanboys they would deliver that good old SW goodness.

I don't understand the whole hyperspace weapon bitching. Not a hardcore fan, but seems to me that doing it is NOT a valid strategy unless...oh say...you're willing to sacrifice an entire large vessel to give those fleeing a chance to escape. Basically, when there's no other alternative.

If it was valid, why didn't the First Order just use their ship to take them out instead of long-range firing. Because in a normal space battle, it's fucking stupid. But not under these circumstances for the rebels.

what a nonsense analogy, the movie was both good AND ballsy.

Why don't they get a bunch of narrow sharp ships manned by droids have them hyperspace into enemy ships

>Leia is probably next

user...I don't know how to break it to you but...

>New Trilogy: there's a bad "empire." the ending point is that the "resistance" will defeat the "empire." Kylo/Rey story is laid on top of that.

Don't make it so easy for me to help defend this shit. I don't want to. There's an underlying story, it's just that whoever is telling the story has a serious head injury.

If you think the movie was good then I have some snake oil to sell you

the point is that something being risky doesn't make it good. i'm glad you liked the film though, i wish i had mashed potatoes for brains so i could enjoy more stuff.

kys bandwagoners

>play it safe
they did not play it safe, they did a bunch of things that people would obviously hate

It wasn't ballsy. Predictably subverting everything is just being an asshole for its own sake especially after you were only given the opportunity on the goodwill of millions of people that you would play it straight and take it seriously. Rian Johnson is a fucking scumbag.

For the same reason the U.S. navy doesn't design entire ships just to remote crash them into other ships. It's about cost versus effectiveness of a weapon. Making a spaceship has got to be insanely resource intensive. And you think essentially crashing it into other ships is a valid strategy?

This movie was about the desperate situation the rebels are in. In any other circumstance, it's far better for the large ship to lightspeed away and be used later and the smaller ships to simply escape. But it large ship couldn't (fuel) and smaller ships couldn't (time).

Doing so didn't even destroy the fleet. Just damaged them. They were on the planet and ready to kick ass in NO time.

Making Not-Empire vs Not-Rebels the framework was extremely safe, Using all the old designs just slightly modified was extremely safe.
At least the prequels had new designs.

The thing is if such a thing was possible, it logically follows that it would be weaponized, essentially making any sort of base/ capital ship obsolete. Why would anyone spend a shit ton of resources on some capital ship/ base if all it took was someone launching a giant brick into hyperspace to ram it into bits? Its not like hyperspace travel was a new technology, it has been around for a very long time, hence such a technique would have been discovered much earlier and developed upon.

Hey, um...not sure if you know this, but the first guided missiles were remote controlled airplanes. Haven't you ever heard the term "fly by wire?" Oh, and now we just call those "misses."

What did he subvert? Are you mad about how he made Luke a bitter old man who didnt get enough screentime and is now gone?

They only need a ship capable of hyperspace, its essentially a giant missile and can be auto piloted. These are rebels who are vastly underpowered than the empire, so they have to use terrorist tactics to even up the game.

Everything he had an opportunity to subvert; expectations of the inclusion of old characters; their past characterizations; the relevance of new characters and story lines, plot points, etc. Even the nature of the Star Wars setting. All predictably, childishly subverted to no end but being a fucking asshole.

did she actually die? i didn't watch the movie, all i saw was the superman flying through space.

would it be wrong to be mad about that?

>what would you say is the biggest issue with the current state of the Star Wars universe?
Disney. When Disney makes a good movie, it's on accident now and they made sure no accidents happen.

No they haven’t at all, you desperate shill

There is ZERO damage control, and believe me many have tried

Did you miss the part where Odin explicitly said that Asgard was more than just the physical space, it was the people (who survived).

He was referencing that Carrie Fisher is dead. There will probably be a timeskip and a line or mention in the scrolling text about Leia's death.

>What about Rey and Kylo switching sides, light to dark and dark to light?

Doing this too crudely would be corny as fuck. But they needed to include elements of this. Rey is pretty hot headed and doesn't kno what light or dark means. It's not implausible that she'd develop dark side powers and think "holy shit Luke Skywalker is a fraud, I don't need him".

>she's not dead she's superman
>he's not a hero he's a failure
>he's not the final boss he's dead
>he's not an ally he's with the enemy
>he's not evil he's good
>he's not good he's still evil
>she's not incompetent she's a tactical genius
>he didn't get blown up he's fine
>it's not blood its the ground
>he's not dead he was a force projection
>he's not not dead he's actually dead

and so so many more. subversion is great when done sparingly, but when you try to subvert absolutely everything it becomes the cinematic equivalent of getting constantly rick-rolled for 2+ hours.

yeah but the idea of hyperspace kamikaze isn't exactly original to TLJ. even before this TLJ out, anyone could ask "why don't they just hyperspace ships into capital ships?"

its just that the very nature of FTL travel in any fictional setting leads to such a plothole

not defending the rest of TLJ's shit writing, but the FTL thing isn't something i'd complain about

The characters are all like 40 years older. People often change over their lifetimes, you know. Stuff happens.
>even the nature of the star wars setting
You mean the tree? The tree isnt even important and it serves no real purpise in the plot. Just a bunch of ancient Jedi artifacts in it

All the other subversions you're gonna have to explain because I cant even guess what scenes you're talking about that led you to think that.

Why in fucks name didnt' they have Leia do the sacrifice with the ramming? I mean it makes zero sense. They bring in a character just for that. Even the mutiny storyline would still work, Poe was getting pissed at being told off by Leia.

Mostly just terrible writing. Not only in terms of making a "star wars" movie in particular, but just generally being unplesant even as a standalone piece. All the characters are terrible; everyone is a shitty unlikable fuck. The dialogue is buffy the vampire slayer whedon quip garbage, now with a thick layer of post-modern progressive politics. The plot is both boring and ridden with plot holes, many segments don't even contribute to the narrative at all.
There are other problems too. Unconvincing acting by everyone other than adam driver. Mediocre visuals despite the multi hundred million dollar budget. Rogue 1 if nothing else LOOKED fantastic, so the talent is there, why was it not used in the last jedi?

is this the counter-argument laid out in the disney shill handbook? the rebels constantly lose ships in star wars battles, sacrificing one ship to destroy a threat (thus negating the need for more ships) is incredibly cost effective.