Batman Rooftops

>ywn read a more deep and atmospheric story arc

At least on Batman Rebirth. Did you love it? Batman #14 specifically

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>Did you love it?

Yes. Batman x Catwoman is up there with Lois Lane x Superman for me. The issues were a bit hammy, but most good love stories are.

...

Wasn't it 2 issues?

I disliked because it made Catwoman out to be a torturous soul that needs the Cat identity and Batman's comfort to escape her existential pain, basically making her a mirror of Batman when she's supposed to be completely different.

I also hated how Tom King only used Holly Robinson to throw her under the bus for his twist.

co HATES the current Batman writer
then when Batman gets a new writer, the previously hated one "wasn't so bad" or "actually pretty good"

Post-crisis Selina has always used the Catwoman alter-ego as a means to escape her shit life.

He doesn't get Batman and seems to base his interpretation of the character on a very superficial reading of DCAU.

youtube.com/watch?v=99gjG2BU_f8

I was one of the people championing King to write Batman but I see now that was kind of a mistake, despite me still liking the run a lot.

He doesn't seem to really care that much about Batman or his mythos. It comes off like he was never that much of a Batman reader. I haven't gotten the feeling that he had or has a Batman story he really wanted to tell, like Morrison and Snyder clearly did.

His strength is more with characters that have an internal conflict, which Batman doesn't.

First one was 10/10 it was really great shit.

that smile on batman... you can almost feel it

She used the Cat identity to rise above her misery and be utterly free breaking all bonds to tied her down, including those of society. She was an independent soul that wanted to look out for herself and enjoy the finer things in life.

That's what so fun about Batman/Catwoman interactions. Batman trying to catch Catwoman and trying to make her conform to his view of things and the rules of society, including making her see she can be more than just a thief looking out for herself and actually use her skills to contribute to society, and Catwoman not letting herself being caught by him or his attempts to tie her down, including trying to make him see that he's wasting himself in a pointless cause for people that doesn't care about him or his sacrifice when he could just let go and go enjoy life with her. One pushing the other and trying to save one another in their own way, without bulging their stance until they learn to slowly accept things and each other's ways.

Her being a mirror of Batman puts a damper to any character development their relationship might bring both character. The way King wrote her she's basically reaffirm all of Batman's beliefs and convictions.

Not to mention that before Selina was very much Selina, there was none of this bullshit about her killing the Selina persona to transform herself into a cat in an attempt to escape the pain of her previous life.

>Her being a mirror of Batman puts a damper to any character development their relationship might bring both character. The way King wrote her she's basically reaffirm all of Batman's beliefs and convictions.

The hell are you talking about? Did you even read the issues? Batman's view on Holly's killing was very black-and-white. She deserved to be locked up. Selina didn't believe this was the case and allowed her to escape, and lied in order to protect her.

>her killing the Selina persona to transform herself into a cat

What?

Batman didn't even knew who Holly was or what had really happened. He just had the conviction that Selina wasn't responsible, because they're alike and as such they both know that death ins't something you force, but choose. The reason for this being because they both killed their human personas to become the Bat and the Cat.

He only found out that Holly was the killer that Selina was protecting after Holly tried to kill him. And this action doesn't mean Selina disagree with his morality, only that she was trying to protect a friend. She even did it a way much like Batman would, by sacrificing her life to protect another.

>What?

What you mean "What?"? Didn't you read the arcs? Both Batman and Catwoman sorta killed their human personas to become something new in an attempt to escape their pain. Batman killed Bruce to become the Bat and Catwoman killed Selina to become the Cat.

That's why they're so into each other. Because both can recognize the pain in each other's eyes and understand each other in their life style choices. They get each other as none else can. Which is great because the whole transformation thing isn't enough to stop the pain. They still feel it. The pain only goes down considerably when they're together touching and kissing each other. Batman said that this feels like they're sharing their deaths.

Basically, King turned them into giant furries.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or if you are incapable of anything more than a surface-level interpretation of King's comics.

There's nothing surface level about it. Suicide has been a big theme during his run. Batman and Catwoman treat their costumed lives as more than just costumes.

And have been for years. Both of them. It's not something King came up with.

For Batman, yes, for Catwoman, no.

And this shit about Batman being the real personality is really shitty. I'm not a fan of it. Specially after Morrison's run.

Stop your whining. The catwoman persona as an escapist fantasy has been a cornerstone of her character since Her Sister's Keeper. The identity gives her the confidence and self assuredness that she lacked (she was faking it before). It's not so much a King or rebirth problem as it is a post crisis problem

I hated how they called each other "Bat" and "Cat." Sounded stupid.

There's a big difference between Selina using the Catwoman persona to be more confident and free, thus being able to break away from her shitty life, kinda like Peter does with the Spider-Man persona, and her killing the old Selina to become the Cat to escape her pain.

And my biggest problem is not even that sorta of transgender-like conflict, but her validating all of Batman's beliefs in a way. She's not challenging him to break away from the Bat persona or trying to break away from him since she now NEEDS his comfort to alleviate her pain.

Before it was more about the thrill of the chase and the one challenging the other.

Now the only thing keeping them apart and adding to the chase is her status a serial killer which Batman can't negate because then they'd put Holly in trouble. So they can't really see each other without Batman HAVING to jail her, which none of them wants.

There's nothing wrong with Catwoman seeking intimacy and companionship with someone who knows what its like to put on a costume to escape a life they no longer want to live, someone who understands her like Batman does. And there's a difference between NEED and WANT.

She just threw away her old life where she was a perennial victim in exchange for one of agency and adventure, one where she could take from a world that never gave her anything. It's much like when Bruce became the Batman to both channel his pain and fight back against the world that robbed him of his childhood and victimized innocent people.

And truth be told I can barely make sense of your posts you don't seem to have any coherent idea you're trying to elucidate. You're just complaining that Catwoman has developed as a character in the past 20 years.

OTP

Besides the Bat-Cat name thing (Just sounds weird, maybe i ll get used to it but i dont want to), it was really good 2-parter. Bats needs someone to make him smile and be truly happy with. So if things went downhill it would make the story more dramatic.
And just do Baby Helena already ffs. I need stories of Damien and Jon, Jason and Artemis taking care of her and going into all kinds of trouble.

In King's run Catwoman seemed to NEED Batman intimacy with her constant begging of his kisses to take away her pain.

And there's a big difference between the old Selina that took on the Catwoman costume to have more agency, to the King's version of Catwoman that killed her old persona to escape her existential pain.

One used the costume to find the strength to rise above her shitty life and be more independent, the other is using the costume to be someone entirely and basically live through the costume. One fought to change her circumstances, the other's fighting to change herself.

And i'm not complaining about her development as a character from before which i'm a fan of. I'm a fan of the character and the BatCat relationship just as you. What I'm complaining about is King's take on the character.

The problem is that you're equating the old Pre-Flashpoint take of the character with King's take, which have significant differences.

Helena Wayne only works with one or both of her parents dying. Why would you want that?

>One fought to change her circumstances, the other's fighting to change herself.
What exactly is the difference?

I already think it's "actually pretty good" though. Not great. I really liked I Am Gotham and Rooftops, the Bane stories and Night of the Monster Men weren't as good. The annual was great and so was the first part of The Button, but the next two issues of The Button were disappointing. The Batman Rebirth one-shot sucked.

It's been a very mixed run, but enough good to be worth reading.

I hated Rooftops. The dialogue was just too bad to enjoy.