Why are we pretending that arbitrary race and gender changes haven't always been a thing in comic books?

Why are we pretending that arbitrary race and gender changes haven't always been a thing in comic books?

Mcu whiners. Plus people with selective memories.

We have people thinking marvel heroes never infighted but they did in most of the team ups.

How many times do we have to explain that nobody here reads or knows anything about comics?

Why are the professional comics press pretending that arbitrary race and gender changes are politically progressive and virtuous?

Because back then it was a big deal. It was a fresh way to continue a title and see how a character dealt with their life and the responsibility differently.

Now, it happens constantly and to multiple mantles at once. Many of which are not especially interesting characters.

To put it another way, you have to want to see where the story is going with it and accompany the character on their journey. With many of the new mantle characters, you don't end up caring about the character and the story just exists to sell the aforementioned character.

Mental gymnastics.

...

stop using my name to shitpost

How so?

Raceswapping a mantle is like a random death in an event. Or events themselves these days.

Its just a cheap meaningless sales booster that's staler than the oldest plot device.

How is "arbitrary" to have comics reflect real world diversity? Fuck off you cunt. If anything is 'arbitrary' it's you bringing it up. Stupid, stupid fucking child.

I still love this.

kek

Point of comics is to sell.

Because it was usually better written and not applied to all heroes at the same time.

Wasn't Rhodes a satellite character in Iron Man and a hero in his own right for years before he became Iron Man?

>If I intentionally mis-interpret the question, I don't have to answer it.

I don't think many people have a problem with race changing a character as a general rule, but when you change a character's race for the sake of race, or gender for the sake of gender ect, it cheapens that character. Suddenly Tony Stark loses what makes him special if there's a 13 year old black girl who can do what took him decades to master. Thor without his Godhood or worthyness can work for a while but before too long people want to see Thor be Thor again.

And the problem with Marvel is they've done this move a dozen times over in a short space.

Within the realm of about 4 years we've seen a new Spider-Man, Thor, Cap, Hulk, Iron Man, and likely several others im too sleepy to remember. It's too much too soon - and in doing this, what used to make Spidey, Cap, Hulk ect feel like special, solid, well defined characters suddenly becomes watered down.

Legacy characters can work. DC tends to do them better in cases like Wally West, Robin and a few others... but that's because they're not tokens. It's not WOAH LOOK WHAT WEEEEEE DID! A BLACK GREEN LANTERN?! HOOOOOO BOY ARENT WE PROGRESSIVE! NOT A FAN? YOURE A BIGGOT! WE ARE SO CULTRUALLY IN TOUCH!... sure they can use those characters to explore race, sexuality and such - but they never felt like someone reached into a hat and pulled out a card saying GL, then another card saying NEGRO.

With Marvel, that's kinda how it feels.

Was about to say the same.

The problem isn't that legacy characters exist. People would like it if it were done the right way like how people liked Rhodey.

The problem is Marvel keeps handing the mantle to complete fucking strangers they JUST introduced.

Because in real life the increasingly Hispanic majority aren't born as "Cuban Tony Stark" or "Puerto Rican Diana Prince". They have their own identities.

The problem with mantle diversity is just that; its mantle diversity.

Imagine if instead of Black Panther we just got a second Mr Fantastic who's black and named T'challa. It'd be a stupid gimmick everyone forgets existed as soon as its over.

If you want more diversity, you create new heroes. Not just slap a new secret identity on a new title.

he was Iron Man well before he was ever War Machine

That's not an excuse for an increasingly inferior product.

We're not going to give Michael Bay or Uwe Boll an award for making money, we're going to mock them for being talentless shit-pushers.

If you're going to make something crappy just for profit, you're going to be treated like it. You may have the money, but you don't get the praise.

Quality is relative. Only reason people are crying about this is because the industry changed.

And you can't adapt.

Quirky and relatable teenagers, no less.

>mfw "NEED A LITTLE VIVAPORU FOR THAT BURN????"

Actually, the problem as I pointed out is the industry is not changing. Great reading comprehension there.

They are repeating the same gimmicks over and over with increasingly less effort and planning so it has gotten extremely stale.

Just like event comics and character deaths, race or gender swaps are an overused, predictable, and mundane thing now.

This had actual impact. During a time period when people were still publicly and straightforwardly segregated based on their skin colour, the comics seriously questioned whether the colour of skin matters from behind the mask and approached the dilemma for all directions, positive and negative.

The new shit is mostly "Thor is now a black girl - And that is empowering and awesome!" in an era where glass ceilings have been completely shattered and global competition leaving merit, character and competence the sole defining factor regardless of sex or who your parents were.

>quality is relative
right, and relative to every other company, Marvel is garbage

>leaving merit, character and competence the sole defining factor regardless who your parents were.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

user, have you ever read Valiant books? They're the retarded inbred offspring of what was popular at Marvel and DC a decade ago.

Oh yeah, unless you are a jew, forgot that.

In summary: You've out grown the target audience.

Much like how people question why Batman doesn't kill the joker.

You are correct sir, but he was in the comics for four years before he became Iron Man so its not like it came out of left field.

>And see, now I don't have to make an argument

well that's funny, because what was popular at Marvel and DC a decade ago was actually good

because it's quality that matters

nobody really got mad at sam being the new cap because he had earned it over decades

the problem is when fem-thor becomes thor (because somehow thor is unworthy, despite tons of other bad shit he's done that never made him unworthy) it's at the expense of supervillains who have KILLED, turning around and "OMG YOU'RE FEMTHOR NOW GURRRL POWER, YOU CAN PUNCH ME FOR FREE"

that is inexecusable

It's not that they haven't always existed to some degree, it's that they've started doing it to appeal moral busybodies so they can furiously masturbate to how socially conscious they are.

It's obnoxious.

better question is, how the fuck did he fit that helmet on his head? That shit is clearly a size too small for him.

Pym Particles/Unstable Molecules

The target audiance is older than me.
Comics aren't made for kids anymore.

Why doesn't Batman kill the Joker? Its a comic for kids.

Why did the Joker rape the wife of a man he killed in the backseat of a car? Because comics aren't made for kids anymore.

So why can Joker rape but Batman can't kill?
Because they want to have their cake and eat it too. That's a problem.

Sup Forums is full of 13-year old kids and 20-year old casuals. So their opinion is as relevant as those movie casuals. Sup Forums is full of gaymergayte retards, pretentious assholes that believe racism is funny and "ironic", and a couple of actual racists; circlejerking and manufacturing outrages.

Very few of the anons actually know what they're talking about, hence why you must be a fool to believe what is written here. Including the "outrage" of the "white genocide" being commited by the "SJW cucks XDDDD" at (((insert company name here)))

Valiant uses the style but not th substance.

Like the shitty cash-ins that try to capitalize on a theme after a Hollywood blockbuster. Or a Chinese knockoff.

What did he mean by this

and now Marvel has neither style nor substance

in an era where glass ceilings have been completely shattered and global competition leaving merit, character and competence the sole defining factor regardless of sex or who your parents were.

are you stupid?

To start with, Sup Forums is love. It's bad for your health to be that angry.

Secondly, you're correct, in that it's not arbitrary, but wrong in that it represents real world diversity.

It's crying in the aisles political messaging, and I mean that literally in the case of Bendis. And if it were to match the real world, we wouldn't be making more black swaps, and creating asians, hispanics, and mainstream republicans instead.

Supporting character for several years, but was never war machine until after.

I think bigger problem is quality of execution. See: New Superman. No lead in, completely new lead, and pretty much entirely new supporting cast. Very well recieved by Sup Forums

Also, it's the nature of comics to snap back to earlier continuity. Everyone knows that shit will eventually return to it's more famous form. Excepting possibly Kamala.

You can click that red x up there on the upper right, anytime you like user. It's probably better for you anyways.

>Why did the Joker rape the wife of a man he killed in the backseat of a car?
I'm pretty sure that never happened. And if it did, it was in something shitty and noncanonical, like that Azzarello Joker one-off.

Still better than Valiant.

You're basically saying McDonalds is the worst burgers in the world because the only other kind you have eaten is Carls JR burgers.

Valiant is like a burger that is somehow both cooked into a grey tasteless slab while also being frozen pink in the middle.

We get it, you don't like Marvel. Its cheap and not very good.
But saying its the absolute worst just demonstrates profound ignorance.

rhodey was cool as iron man but he sucks as war machine because he always turns into generic angry black army guy

Move to a non-third world country.

Because we weren't alive to bitch about them at the time.

That's it, that is is literally the only thing that separates the agenda-pushing of the past from the agenda-pushing of today. When people argue that it was "done better", what they really mean is "I didn't have to live through it at the time so it doesn't ass-blast me as much."

Because they didn't just change Tony Stark into a black guy. James Rhodes was a character long before he became Iron Man

But Rhodie has always been black.

Actually, storytimes of pain are of interest to me. I haven't read much of the current Valiant lineup, just the new Faith run, with the nadir being the election special, and a little bit of crossover with Woody and some of the Harbringers.

What's the worst they've got?

it's the Azz Joker book, but he killed the guy later in the story. Not Joe Chill pimped his wife to the Joker as payment for something, The Joker didn't kill Not Joe Chill then rape his wife on top of his corpse.

that would be obscene.

Faith

most of Valiant is actually in the "perfectly acceptable" range, with a few bright spots

So you don't know it never happened, showing you don't read comics and don't have the background to have a proper discussion with, and dismissed it ever happening out of hand because you can't find a counter-argument.

Well it did happen and in mainstream continuity, and its actually the first time that Batman not killing the Joker became a major argument rather than something someone like Kevin Smith who overthinks things brought up every so often. As such, its actually integral to this discussion and something you should know before you attempt to debate it.

No. The problem is you don't want change. Every reset is because whiners want their childhood back.

I think we all accept at this point that its just white identitarians trying to hold onto things that were never really theres.
It makes a lot of sense given the age comics goes back to versus the age of these people (I wont say neo nazi because of the bitchfit it'd cause, but ya). they have no idea what the shifting culture has ACTUALLY been, and so instead just choose to get bootyhurt about this stuff and claim it was always in there "culture".

Wont be long before they get mad at black people in anime :P

I'm guessing your interactions in circles involving old money and legacies are nonexistant.

I don't think Azz Joker is in-continuity

Negro voodoo magic.

Depends. Modern valiant is quite boring to me, i prefer the early version.

Plus they rebooted as much as dc did. And can't use solar, magnus, turok again. Very crappy.

I don't care about the obese faith either.

All right you got me, I am legacy.

>they rebooted as much as dc did
twice in 30 years?

One big problem is that they don't have a clean concept on exactly what he should be. Ironically enough, the mostly terrible War Machine 2.0 actually did have a good read.

Valiant is entirely mediocre with nothing notable or interesting.

They aren't cringe, but you can read an entire series and forget it because there's nothing noteworthy to remember.

>Every reset is because writers want their childhood back.

ftfy

Sames goes for the rest. Miles was never ultimate pete with a black skin change.

People just want to whine and contradict themselves. When emotions take over a person entire mind, they become unstable.

If you don't like it, just quit and read back issues.

Alan Moore was right.

You type like a fag but I feel you user.
I feel you.

You're completely wrong. I'm a strong believer in multiculturalism. Pretending that the people who dislike this, dislike it just because of racisim is a disservice to everyone.

>I was raped by a Valiant employee

They rebooted multiple times in the 90s. And every relaunch. And will so again in your lifetime.

Writers are in a bad position no matter what they do with minority characters.

Introduce a new minority character, people will complain and the character might not be successful(this is a problem for all new characters).

Give an existing minority character a push people will whine and say that an existing white character was more deserving of the push.

Have a minority character(new or existing) take over for an established character people cry white genocide.

Then there are those who complain that a minority character isn't ethnic enough.

I think that Marvel has the right idea, the writers do what they feel like with minority characters and seem not to care about criticism. All they need now is good stories.

>Wont be long before they get mad at black people in anime :P

Japan still thinks blackface is hilarious, making every white person into Buffy or John Wayne is fine, and that making fun of South Koreans is family humor.

It gives 0 fucks what anyone not Japanese thinks.

are we talking about DC or Valiant here

Not really. I said resets.

Most resets are due to backlash. Actual chamge would require all the favs to age and stay dead and be replaced by new heros.

Something this industry hasn't being doing since the 70s.

Both. Learn to read. Surely you read the 90s stuff?

not counting the Gold Key stuff before and after, since it wasn't a shared universe there's the original 1991 Valiant Universe

The 1998 Acclaim Universe

and the current one

>it's a rich kid doesn't understand
life works if you aren't rich episode.

you don't know how much of a boon that is.

>Writers are in a bad position no matter what they do with any characters.

Zero Hour was a continuity fix, not a reboot

relaunches are not reboots

the only reboots DC has done are Crisis on Infinite Earths and Flashpoint

Again, because of writers.

Nobody dies because thete's nobody to replace them. Why is there so few new characters? Because there's a VERY well documented history of the big two assraping creators who wanted to continue sketching the characters they created on commission at conventions, or fucking up the character with them having no say.

That's why anyone who wants to make something truly new and keep doing it goes to Image or Dark Horse. Fuck, its why Image and Dark Horse exist in the first place.

A relaunch is a soft reboot, and the public sees it as the same. They aren't regarded warmly.

>they aren't regarded warmly
>he says as Rebirth continues to dominate

Pic not related right?
Because Rhodey wasn't replacing Tony as Iron Man, he was just fullfilling a supplementary role.

An occasional side kick if you will.

>Because Rhodey wasn't replacing Tony as Iron Man
he literally was, though. He was the only Iron Man for years.

Because Rhodes is Tony's friend so it actually felt like it meant something.

Sounds familiar.

It's the difference between Captain Falcon and Riri.

It's not required for a legacy to be set up in advance, but it's much easier to sell the character's place in the world without making them look like a poochie.

>Miles was never ultimate pete with a black skin change.

Might as well been. Miles barely acts any different than Peter in the costume.

user, you might wanna look for a better example. Jim had been a supporting character on the title for a while when he started being Iron Man the first time. He was his own character already and him taking the armor wasn't really arbitrary, it was either him or Happy.
There's Eddie March but he was a single(or 2 can't remember now) issue thing.

That iron man suit was elastic. He could wear it under his clothes and everything.

Because now a days it's done with all the subtilty of a brick to the face.

Rhodey had been a popular supporting character in Iron Man for several years before this happened, he was Tony Stark's hand-picked replacement, and his not being a genius inventor like Tony completely changed the tone of the book in a way that shook everything up.

Fans were able to embrace this a lot more than they were with Riri, who came out of nowhere to become the new Iron Man in the space of a few months, and possesses all of Stark's genius and inventing skills.....but better than he ever was!

There's also all those old stories about Tony fighting to prevent his Iron Man technology being used by others, going to war with former allies and friends over this, and now people are supposed to believe he would just hand everything over to some teenager he just met.

Rhodey and Riri are the "how to" and "how not to" of replacement superheroes.

It's also important to note that when Rhodey was Iron Man, Steve Rogers was still Captain America, Bruce Banner was still Hulk, Thor was still Thor, Logan was still Wolverine, Peter Parker was the only Spider-Man, etc. One well-handled replacement hero at a time can earn attention, sales, and fans. When you're replacing everyone at the same time, you start alienating too many longtime fans at once.

And then you refuse to back down, because you care more about your ideology than about sales, and everyone waits for Disney to start paying attention, and fire everyone in Marvel editorial.

To me that motherfucker is always an architect first

Rodey is cool.

>Who were USAgent, Thunderstrike, Ben Reilly?

Yea he was Tony's bro.

Get a trip

No, I'm Spartacus!