You know, maybe Max isn't all the things that you think a son should be... but he loves me

>You know, maybe Max isn't all the things that you think a son should be... but he loves me.
>Hey, my son respects me!

That was dark. And sad. And depressingly real.

Who would have thought that the greatest source of fatherly disappointment in all media would be Goofy?

Yea, and then he turned into a filthy beatnik, great parenting jackass.

A beatnik who got a piece of tail as fine as his Mom.

Pete would be proud

OKAY user, THIS IS IT: LEFT OR RIGHT?

Even better, unlike his dad, he might actually keep her around.

UH... UH..... RIGHT!

Childhood is thinking Goofy is a good dad.
Adulthood is realizing Pete was right all along.

And intelligence is in recognizing that both have their faults and virtues, and that it's impossible to get everything right.

And Constitution is Goofy and Max surviving the fall off the cliff

This is depressing if you move past the "childhood bad, adulthood good" mentality and realize getting older makes you overemphasize things that don't matter to a child growing up.

Having a good relationship with your kid is much more important than just having their respect.

The thing is, they both had points. Pete's right that you need your son to respect you first and foremost, which is why his son didn't pull shit like Max did.
Goofy's right that a son still needs actual love and a sense that you care about them, which is why he and Max in the long run were happier as a family.

The scene works because while Pete only brought up the map to be an ass, they both have legitimate points.

Pete does not have virtues.

Having their respect means they listen to you and you can protect them from making mistakes that can ruin their lives since most of the time, your kid will make life changing decisions entirely in your absence. If they don't respect you, they may act just to spite you, even when it's not in their best interests.

Being your kids friend is overrated, and that's how you end up with a dead kid or a runaway.

Nah mate, that's just fate points.

He instilled a sense of respect for others in his son, which made his kid a better person than he was. Bringing a bit of good into the world is a virtue, however little it may have been.

Is the Perfect Cast dexterity or charisma?

Wisdom.

/tg/ coming out of the woodwork at unexpected times always gets me.

> If they don't respect you, they may act just to spite you, even when it's not in their best interests.

I'd say that's more likely with a lack of love than of fear. Not to knock respect, it's important, but if it's not backed up with some kind of positive feeling than you're only really respecting the presence and the power. The moment you're outside of those what's to stop you from doing whatever the fuck you want?

luck

Are all forgeting the fact that Pete is WRONG here
his boy doesn't respect him he's AFRAID of him as such is null to a certain degree as PJ would act to spite Pete or excircise his own freedom as soon as Pete is out of the equation and PJ was sure he couldn't intervene
Granted Pete would have to be dead or half way around the world for PJ to feel that comfortable but the fact is Pete has his claws so deep in PJ he doesn't know how to act on his own outside "Pete's list of rules"
And even they themselves are only enforced by Pete's presence

Kinda reminds me of those hardcore christian families. Spend years beating those values into their kids and they lose their mind the minute they go away to college and experience all the shit they couldn't at home

That does seem to be the Goof meister's dump stat
Or maybe it's faith

They're both right, but for the wrong reasons.

You can't strong arm your children into respecting you or they'll turned out fucked up or at worse fucking spiteful. Whats gonna happen when you need an organ or want them to watch your house? Or not put you in a retirement home where the nurses "accidentally" kill you because they don't fucking care enough.

You also can't under any circumstance be your children's "friend", because they don't NEED a friend, they NEED a parent.
You need to be there for them to temper the stupid fucking decisions they have, but to also provide that good unconditional genetic love that they need to be good, social, smart people.

Pete was making the mistake of using his child as a fucking minion.
Goofy was making the mistake of just hoping love would conquer all and was getting used and abused by his coddled child.


Even then, though, you can still fuck everything up since children are such a slow-burning heat and you won't know how successful you were until 20 or so years later.

Yeah, you gotta be careful or you could end up raising a Willis

Not surprising, a lot of Christian families don't even bother trying to explain why certain things are bad to their kids. It's just "The pastor or the bible says this and so you can't do that" and any logic or protest is shouted down by parental authority or at worst an exorcism.

When you really start to encounter ideas outside of the church and people who are actually willing to explain shit to you Christianity really can't hold a candle anymore.

Seriously, just look at PJ in an Extreme Goofy Movie and compare him to his younger self in Goof Troop. There is a big difference and PJ leaving for college really brought out the real him.

Sure must be nice having a dad.

My dad is kinda distant, but he's a hell of a lot better than his dad was and I know I can always count on his love and support.

I hope I'm a good dad some day.

I was raised in a christian family and while me and my mother see certain things differently (gay marriage being a big point) she ultimately loves me, without a doubt. My thing is, just follow the Ten Commandments and be a good person in general but never a doormat.

>I hope I'm a good dad some day.
You've already made a good first step: Caring.

>Respect
Nah. PJ fears him.

Same, helping to raise my niece is gonna be a lot different than caring for my own kid.

The fear of knowing you'll have to face your father again later that night, or some point later on. Respect is without a doubt the most important virtue to instill in a child. Love is important, and I can agree that respect through fear has its flaws but if I could not get a child that both respected and loved me, I'd rather have one that respected and feared me before I had one that loved and did not respect me.

No.
They'll try to get your ass out of their lives as soon as possible and then you'll call them ungrateful because you don't know why they won't love you back. If there's no love, there's no trust and consequently no relationship.
Indeed, this is too damn real.

So what you're saying is that Pete and Goofy should just do the fusion dance and they'd be the perfect parent?

You had a dad once. What you really mean it must be nice to have dad that cares about being part of their child's life.

I once punched my dad repeatedly when stole a large portion of my money to buy alcohol.

We haven't spoken since.

Yes

I think you and others are confusing fear with respect. Fear can be used to reinforce it, but respect is a separate virtue all its own.

Not always.
Sometimes, it'll be more of a burden.

Ouch. While I can't really condone physical violence (unless done in self-defense) the dude is still a massive prick for pulling that.

Respect can be gained in many ways. Fear is one of them.

>The fear of knowing you'll have to face your father again later that night, or some point later on.
And they moved to a different city so they never have to deal with that shit again. Unless you got some crazy hold on them, they're just gonna fuck off to someplace out of your range first chance they get

Yeah, I know how that is. My dad's kind of got the Hank Hill thing where he endured such shitty treatment from his dad that he grew up emotionally distant and not really willing to talk about how he feels. I think he was distant with us because he had no idea how to be more engaged and open and he probably saw his options as being either distant and kind of detached, or being an abusive tyrant, and that wasn't what he wanted to be.

For all his faults he does care and he does try, and given the shit he had to go through I can't be mad at him for being the way he is.

Same here user, but at some i understood that is better this way, at least i'm not going to be like him

You can fear someone without respecting them.

I'd rather have them live long enough to be able to say "fuck you dad I'm gonna drink a beer in college" than let them do some crazy shit at 14 when they're out at 2AM because of some bullshit "unconditional love/trust" and then find their dead body in a river or dropped off at a hospital.

Plus most people have that zen moment when they realize Dad was looking out for them in their 20s precisely because they made it that far. Unconditional love dad gets no such moment from their kid. Their kid just abuses their love and gets addicted to heroin or some shit.

That's the tricky part- fear and respect can yield similar results so it's easy to confuse the two. They'll never be the same thing, though.

I concur.
Though your definition of respect seems a bit different from what's in the context of OP's pic.

Go back to being dead, Machiavelli.

Pete also had the problem of basically neutering himself to be a more-or-less honest NORMAL person to raise PJ and Pistol instead of being his actual A-Grade Overt The Top Criminal.

I wonder if PJ's opinion of him would change if he did know how much Pete gave up to be the best father he could be. I mean, at very least he cut off contacts with his cousin Portis and his various criminal friends like Scuttle, Dum-Dum and the Phantom Blot.
Also, Peg might be hot and everything, but Trudy is a far better match for Pete

>Poofy

>be a kid with an estranged father
>mom wouldn't let me be with my father for more than an hour or two
>dad spends that time taking me to see movies
>nearly every movie we watch ends up having some subplot of the main character and his dad having a terrible relationship
>more often than not the goes dad full asshole or straight up Hitler, forcing the hero to either cut him out of his life completely, or straight up kill him

My dad does his best to be with me, but it's like the universe doesn't want him to be part of my life.

My parents were always of the "initially harsh admonishment but then talk things out" variety, and I had respect for them because I didn't want them to be disappointed in me. Not because I was scared that disappointment would lead to admonishment, but because I knew they wanted the best from me and I didn't want to let them down.

Nearly every kid I knew with harsh as fuck scary parents was a raging douche at school by comparison.

Machiavelli stated how Love+Fear>Fear>Love>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hate.
Never EVER be hated.

GOD WHY IS PETE SO FUCKING HOT???

So for all of you people saying respect/fear is overrated, would you truly prefer to have a kid that didn't respect you but still loved you?
I.E. he never listens to what you say, always disobeys, breaks the law, steals from you, absolute mess all around, but is probably going to cry at your funeral?

You would really, HONESTLY prefer that route?

Not sure Pete was ever an outright villain in this continuity as he was in others.

Then say fuck you to the universe and make time for you two to have a relationship, on your own terms.

Machiavelli was actually mistranslated a lot.

"The ends justify the means" in original Italian was closer to "One must consider the means".

That's the thing though. Goofy is clearly not one of those types of parents and if anything, Pete is close to being that type of parent while Goofy was more of a pushover. I think people are overplaying the fear aspect. Pete was not a monster.

I would prefer a kid who respected me but wasn't afraid of me.

Yeah it kinda sucks as a kid, but you end up not caring when you reach your 20's so how many of you have your dad around growing up?

If someone loves you, they will look to you as part of a model for their behavior, so unless you teach them those actions, they might just reject them, like most people do. Or do you just think that you learned nothing about how to act from your parents?

That's the problem. Neither Goofy or Pete are the option you suggest. And if it boils down to only one of those two choices, it makes more sense to be a Pete than a Goofy.

It's more of like a magical ritual so Intelligence (Arcana or Religion).

I know my parents actually sat down and explained what was up a lot, and it helped me realise why I shouldn't do things without trying to scare me into it.

Also, Pete was honestly convinced his son respected him, not feared him.

Most people who quote Machiavelli(or Sun Tzu) generally have never really read their books

>His genuine undisguised disgust and disappointment, to the point where he can't even stand to be in his son's presence anymore

For a movie about a guy named 'Goofy' this shit was too fucking real.

What are you going on about? You can love someone without looking to them as a model for behavior.

Not on a basic human level you can't. Role models, especially those for children, are those they care about, the people they look up to. So why on Earth would a child who loves their parents not look up to them, and thereby learn from them as role models?

I propose a better question user, how many of you have childs and stay around?

Well in the show, he was a bit of a shady businessman, but he was mostly just kind of a smug dick

A child that loves their parents as they love a secondary friend or acquaintance might not use them as role models. Just like how you don't really pay too much attention to that guy who's hanging at the edge of your friend group and dont model your life after him, but you'd still probably be upset if he died or got into a car accident.

It's still love, but it's not respect. And that's a bad position for a parent to be in.

>respect/fear
You aren't understanding that respect and fear are entirely different concepts. I feared my father when I was young because he would beat the shit out of me whenever he thought I stepped out of line, but the instant the fear was taken away so was his ability to influence my behavior, and I often ended up doing the exact opposite of what he wanted out of pure spite. It isn't an effective long-term solution the way legitimate respect is.

I'm unfamiliar with Trudy. What makes her a better match for Pete?

don't go to see gotg!!

UNDER YER THUMB

>if you don't like this extreme then that means you like the other extreme

if your kid is acting out of fear then they'll turn out to be a gigantic fuck up when they grow old enough to stop being afraid of you. you aren't teaching your kid "do this because it's right", you're teaching them "do this out of fear", which stops working once they no longer fear you.

Such bullshit that this Pete isn't used more. Sleazy used car salesman Pete, who occasionally showed he was a decent guy under it all is best Pete.

Reread the post. I'm saying if you had to only pick between Pete and Goofy. Hence the "thinking Goofy was a good dad, but adulthood is realizing Pete makes more sense/was right (in the context of the movie)".

Pete had his flaws, sure, but if it came down to picking the Pete or Goofy style of parenting, it makes way more sense to have a kid you know can act out of spite in his 20s than have a dead or imprisoned teenager that says he loved you on his way out.

why do yall think that respect inherently means that a child won't be out doing dumb shit

im i lil bitch and i cry at the thought of people i care about having to deal with the consequences of my actions
but I'd go out of my way to spite someone who gives me a hard time. I'm grown, beatings don't scare me

Not saying Pete is right. Im saying it makes more sense to be a Pete than a Goofy. Please stop projecting your family issues this hard and looking for words that were not said.

>tfw your dad isn't the greatest but he tries and that's what matters

>I'm grown
Exactly. That's the point.

It doesn't. Both of them are equally bad options.

So instead of having a kid who loves you and would want to do right by you, you want a kid that would hate you and reject you and anything you would teach them?

She's lovey-dovey, patient, caring but doesn't let Pete push her around(not he usually would in first place). She also cooks really well, though I don't remember Peg's cooking skills.

They have a long lasting relationship based on respect for each other and robberies- they live together and act like a married couple in everything but being actually married.

I'll agree they both aren't the best options but Goofy style is easily worse than Pete style.

You need both. I've made a case study out of father-son-brother relationships in my life.

>Great-grandfather a derelict drunk
>Great-uncles both become drunks
>Grandfather (middle son) becomes man of the farm and is responsible
>Eldest great-uncle's alcoholism is what makes younger great uncle an alcoholic
>Grandfather has no respect for his older brother or father, regrets being unable to help his younger brother
>Eldest great-uncle has a terrible relationship with his son, who respects my grandfather more
>Grandfather totally family oriented but stoic
>My father says he never told him once that he loved him
>Father has me and my younger brother
>Brother spends more time with grandfather, strains relationship with dad
>Brother becomes alcoholic at young age
>Dad and I get him to turn things around after a decade of struggle do to our mutual respect and affection for one another

You need both.

>do right by me
Except he wouldn't because he didn't respect me.
Which is the whole point. Just like how fear and respect are two separate virtues, so are respect and love.

You can love someone without respecting them, and if the choice was having a child's respect without their love or their love without their respect, having their respect is the clear choice.

>I'm saying if you had to only pick between Pete and Goofy.
And I'm saying characterizing it as a choice between love and respect/fear is wrong, because "respect/fear" can't actually be combined like that, at least in the context of the scene. Pete isn't respected, he's feared.

>know can act out of spite in his 20s
I act out of pure spite to this day. It's mostly minor things like being nice to waitstaff and being extra patient with people, sure, but it's still the opposite of what I was taught. I never respected the one who tried to instill the teachings opposite to my now-spiteful actions, I only feared them, and now the fear is gone.

Love without respect is basically condescension.

I always felt it a tad out of character for goofy to get so angry, but then again it's honestly justified

Explain how PJ does not respect Pete.
Also
>I still act out of spite to this day...
You're a man child that needs to grow up

Not really. There are numerous examples of things or people you can love without respecting them. Dogs and slaves being such an example.

When's the last time you interacted with a slave, user? Is there something you want to tell us?