Why does Fox even want the rights to these characters?

Why does Fox even want the rights to these characters?

They're box office poison.

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Trade Fodder with Marvel Studios. If Marvel wants to use the accompanying characters they'll either have to buy them back or trade them something else and since that includes dudes like Surfer, Galactus, Namor, ect.

Honestly, I'm surprised they could use the Watcher. I was sure that he was in the FF Rights.

they can probably use the race of the Watchers but not Uatu specifically. Like the Skrulls and Super-Skrull

Only reason is because they keep making bad movies.

Also, they need to make a FF movie where it's not the fucking origin story. If they ever make a new one, just skip that shit and go right into world saving.

Doubt it, Watchers in general were associated with F4. Chitauri was sort of a loophole to allow them Skrulls.

They know that Marvel Studios will make them successful if they got their hands on them.

Ironically, OP posted the best movie.
Anyway, like said it's for making potential deals with Marvel.
Also if Marvel ever got to make a Fantastic Four movie and it did well then heads would roll at Fox.

>FF movie where it's not the fucking origin story
the only thing that they can do at this moment is a deal like Sony and reboot them, they could introduce FF in the postcredits of the first Thanos movie, giving to marvel all the artistic direction and all that, if they try to reboot again or a secuel will be a disaster

We need first a successful movie with the origin story to move on.

Why? We know who they are. We've known since the 60s.

Was the Corman production the best Fantastic Four movie?

>with the origin
Norton's Hulk tell the origin in less than 3 minutes, we could have something like that

sorry forgot the link
youtube.com/watch?v=RHVUCVVE4ek

Yes, it's legitimately fun and has a charm you only get with a low budget and practical effects

Didn't they just use the watchers in GoG2?

Yes, some people claim now that only Uatu belong to fox and no the entire race

Backup

>They're box office poison.
Then Disney doesn't want them either. What's the problem, foolish shill?

there's four people with assorted super powers

boom, origin told

Disney want Galactus Sylver Surfer and Doom, they try to get that before Fox lose Daredevil in exchange to let them keep DD but Fox said no

Marvel traded Negasonic Teenage Warhead for Ego and Watchers

You'd still need a 1st act to show your audience the actors/characters chemistry. Skipping that is not a great idea, so you'd still need an introductory movie, even if it didn't have an outright origin story.

The first two FOX movies did kind of OK financially (especially when you factor in movie-FF merch, which FOX also gets 100% of), and the Corman movie was made by the previous rightsholders in order to renew the rights period specifically so that they could find a buyer for them, which was eventually FOX.

The way rights to a property (any property) work is like this:

You "option" the rights to a product, like FF; you may in rare cases buy the rights in perpetuity (which was once common practice, but is now highly unlikely).

Your option has a headline price, say, a million dollarydoos. That's the price you agree to pay when you make the movie, but to begin with you only make a small downpayment - maybe 10% (but the figure is on a case by case basis).

Once you've optioned enough rights, you decide where to spend your money. So far you've spent, let's say a million in total, optioning ten products. These are all things that you bought because they have one of several competing factors; great Q scores (popularity with the public as measured by independent rating and polling agencies based on a variety of data), great stories (ie something in the script which is unique), or great names already attached, such as actors, directors, even producers whose names will guarantee a certain amount of publicity, funding from investors, and eventually moviegoers.

So in the end you've got enough money in this scenario to fully complete, say, three of the ten properties you made before they all revert to their ultimate owners. If you get lucky, one of them gets so big at the box office you end up with money to make even more, and some sequels, but you still can't make them all.

In reality, you're talking about hundreds of products at any given studio, even the indies. Most never get a second script draft; almost none ever get made. But they still have value - so even if you don't want to use them, you hang on to them, and see who'll make you an offer.

Fox just wants in on the gravy train. They have no clue why Avengers, batman, and deadpool do well. they think fantastic four and the movies they make should be hits too. They're like anyone who farts all the time and stinks up the place, no clue their brand is shit to everyone else.

You have to remember, Fox is old money, old hollywood. They're ignorant. Sony is new money, new hollywood. They played ball with marvel cause they are more self aware.

No..... this is fucking dumb. Chitauri are nothing like skrulls. Some minor connection in story is not worthy of trademark elements.

So hypothetically, if Marvel got FF back, who should be the first villain in their solo film?

Hasn't that been common knowledge for the last couple years or so?

Fine so show them having great adventures and Torch throwing a pie in Ben's face right after you get through 3 cuts of them meeting, then going into space, then being blasted with cosmic rays.

The rest of the opening credits you can just show them being a family, it isn't that hard, you can establish the personality types fairly quickly.

I agree. The whole movie should just basically be a Rick and Morty/Futurama high-concept episode except without the memes and with the Incredibles cast.

Mole Man, put in nods to Annihilus, have him be the second movie villain, keep Doom in the background as the third movie villain.

Even if something looks ruined, it still has a value because you have it and nobody else does. If you can hang on to something for long enough, it may become valuable again - and if the only costs associated with that are storage for contracts saying you own it, then there's no real barrier to ownership.

There's a claim which appears solid that FOX owns certain named characters like Super-Skrull, but not their races - so the Chitauri thing is misleading (especially since they weren't particularly Skrull-like in appearance, modus operandi, goals or allegiance).

This is borne out by FOX's ownership of the X-Men franchise rights; FOX has held these rights for over 20 years, first exploiting them in 1996 for a tv movie. It wasn't until they initiated a legal action against Marvel and some other studios over a tv show called Mutant X that FOX learned they did not, in fact, own prominently-featured, named X-Men they had already used in their tv movie and in their later movie series - because these characters were not specifically named in the contracts as agreed at signing.

Given that the two Marvel contracts (which run parallel even today, and can't be combined without agreement from Marvel, despite giving control of both franchises to FOX) were likely drafted in the same office by the same lawyers, it's reasonable to assume that example characters and stories as named at contract time were all Marvel ever explicitly intended to give away; so FOX probably never owned as much as anybody thought, but you can see why Marvel today might not know that - whoever wrote those contracts probably retired years ago.

This is why you always read before signing, kids.

The Story films are MCU tier you idot

the best way to introduce the character would be a cameo like spiderman maybe a scene with them back to earth and after that a the end of the movie helping in a figth scene or something like that, from there you can make a quick resume with a couple of university flashbacks and other of the launch of the rocket and go straight to the movie without 30 borring minutes

>keep Doom in the background as the third movie villain.

Above all else do this. You want to do Doom justice, you fucking build him up. He's wasted as an origin villain and Fan4stic basically adapted Ultimate FF's Annhiulus arc but made Doom the main villain anyway instead of saving him for sequels.

Leverage with Marvel.

The origin doesnt take more than 5 minutes to explain in the movie intro, watchmen style. They have to focus on the good stories already. And about the FF working or not, every MCU movie so far has used the same formula, perfect precisely for the FF: Family friendly fun and adventures full of quips, not too complicated, not too simple.

>deadpool
But that is Fox. Logan did well too.

You're fucking delusional. Fox started the superhero movie craze with their X-Men movies in the early 2000s and they've been consistently making money off of that one universe ever since, culminating in one of the best reviewed comic book movies ever. Also, Deadpool is Fox you idiot. Fantastic Four is just something they make to hold onto rights so they have leverage with Marvel, they literally only made the Trank movie so the rights wouldn't lapse, they don't care how bad it was.

Mole man, as said before. Annihilus gets explored eventually, and the Gah-Lak Tus / Annihilation wave is your MCUThanos

>They played ball with marvel cause they are more self aware.

They played ball with Marvel because they're on the verge of going out of business, they had no choice after their bombs with the Amazing Spider-Man movies and continued mistakes like the new Ghostbusters. Fox doesn't need Marvel.

I agree. I think the best way is to introduce the characters slowly and DO the origin in the movie. Show Ben as a pilot, make him conneced to Rhodey or Carol or something. Make Reed a scientist, working with Tony or Bruce or Pym or someone. Do those prior to a movie.Don't skip over these characters bonding together.

>were likely drafted in the same office by the same lawyers

No. The Fantastic Four deal is notorious for being a really bad deal for marvel. It was done in the 80's. The rumors are a lot of promises and drugs were made and not really done on paper. Money was exchanged, deals do exist, but nothing like the later movie deals marvel did.

>Fox doesn't need Marvel
Only for the Xmen thanks to Deadpool and DoFP, the Fantastic Four need a reboot, and more people will see them if they are inside the MCU, they can try alone or try to get a deal with Disney

>Fox doesn't need Marvel.

FOX has been part of the Murdoch empire for so long they're virtually synonymous.

FOX is going down, friend. This stuff with Ailes and co over at the tv side? Isolated? So explain Rebekah Brooks. Fired from her job - the paper she edited shut down - and back she crawls after two years. Two years in which claim after claim after claim has been settled by Newscorp, the Murdoch's ultimate umbrella corporation, over phone hacking. Because that was where Newscorp got its stories from - at the British tabloids and beyond. Which means FOX News too. Meanwhile it turns out the guys at the top of FOX News were treating it as a harem, which has already cost them tens of millions in settlements alone and will likely end up costing an order of magnitude - or several - more, thanks to them being stupid enough to try that shit in the US.

Meanwhile, Rupert got shafted by his ex-wife (who turns out to have been much better at business than he's ever been), married his new wife partly because she's not going to want kids and partly because she's connected - which is desperation on his part - and his adult children from his earlier marriages are fighting it out with his hired proteges for the right to lead when the 90-something fuck finally croaks.

The movie studio could have a great decade with no flops and no shitty concepts at all and it would still have seen any profit sucked out to pay the ruinous legal costs of decades of mismanagement. Newscorp is fucked, the shareholders just aren't ready to admit it yet (and the controlling shares are all held by the Murdochs anyway).

When it goes, it'll be sudden. Deals or not, nothing can save it now.

>No. The Fantastic Four deal is notorious for being a really bad deal for marvel. It was done in the 80's. The rumors are a lot of promises and drugs were made and not really done on paper. Money was exchanged, deals do exist, but nothing like the later movie deals marvel did.

If there's nothing on paper, the it's a really good deal for Marvel by default, because if there's nothing on paper then FOX owns nothing.

All a court would ever give a shit about is what FOX can prove it has the right to do, not what it says it should be able to do because some fratboy execs got coked up in the 80s and thought they'd screwed over Stan Lee.

Never ever trust an old man in LA. They're not what they seem.

Why are you on Sup Forums Rachel?

>missing the point this hard
>calls me an idiot

Lol, should I even bother explaining to morons? Of course deadpool is fox, it was hugely successful. It being fox wasn't the point, it being successful was the point. You think fox knows WHY deadpool did so well over X-men Apocalypse? I mean one of you thinks fox is making movies out of spite, so I can't being to fathom the other stupid thoughts floating in your head. If fox had 0 successes in the super hero genre they'd have given up by now. Universal gave up. Fox legit doesn't know what they're doing right or wrong.

> they had no choice after their bombs with the Amazing Spider-Man movies and continued mistakes like the new Ghostbusters.
>bombs
>ASM
>they're most profitable films of 2012 and 2014
>ghostbusters
>spider-man was in civil war before this movie even came out

fucking hell, I forgot I was on Sup Forums, you guys are so fucking retarded, are you all sleep deprived from needing to wake up before noon yesterday to get free comics?

>>they're most profitable films of 2012 and 2014
Wrong. It's well known that Sony lost money on the Amazing Spider-Man movies. That's why they scrapped their Sinister Six plans and a third movie to make a deal with Marvel.

>Universal gave up.
Also wrong. They want to make another Hulk movie, but Disney doesn't want to share the profits with them. Also a well known fact if you bothered looking anything up.

They should've just let Ioan Welshname play Horatio Hornblower the entire time.

I wish people would get this shit through their skulls. Why are origin stories so goddamn important to people? Like 99% of the best cape comics of all time are NOT origin stories.

I'm so sick of seeing superheroes starting out and figuring out how to use their powers. Notice that one of the most successful superhero films of all time is Avengers which has the heroes at the full height of their powers. Granted, it shows the origin of the team's formation, but that's just moviemaking 101.

Also most hero origins, as in how they got their powers, can be summed up in one sentence, which is what they do at the beginning of most Marvel comics.

As much as I love the F4, the fact that they're handled so poorly makes them ripe for parody.

They actually confirmed they do have rights for the same reason they have rights to Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver, just not the Super Skrull. But they chose a no-name race like the Chitauri because the Skrulls would introduce an espionage element they didn't want to bother with because the movie was about the Avengers, not the villains.

I bet you anything Avengers 4 (5?) will be the Kree-Skrull war.

James Gunn also confirmed that Marvel traded the rights to the Watcher from Fox in exchange for that one Teenage Negasonic Warhead or whatever the fuck she's called to be used in Deadpool.

>*source needed

Ok, if they're such well known facts, prove it.

You are now aware that the guy that gave him the 2nd or 3rd warning was actually Josh Trank before he directed the latest flaming piece of shit movie.

>You have to remember, Fox is old money, old hollywood. They're ignorant. Sony is new money, new hollywood
The current head of Sony was the head of Fox. Tom Rothman is a retard and Deadpool and Logan were only made BECAUSE he was finally gone.

And guess what, now that he's firmly in place as Sony Studios CEO, which occurred after the Spider-man Homecoming deal with the MCU, they're trying to make the Spider-man Cinematic Universe happen again.

deadline.com/2015/03/amazing-spider-man-2-profit-box-office-2014-1201389608/

Sony only made $70M off of ASM 2. Not good considering the investment.

slashfilm.com/universal-hulk-rights/

Universal still owns distributing rights to any future Hulk movies, which means they have first say in whether or not they want the movie to be made. To avoid splitting profits with them, Disney is just teaming him up with Thor and putting him in Avengers movie only.

Under the right director and screen writer I think they would work but at the same time I really do think that the Fantastic Four are going to be like the Hulk: On their own it just won't work but with the other Avengers? It might just work out.

>Sony only made $70M off of ASM 2. Not good considering the investment.
>Wrong. It's well known that Sony lost money on the Amazing Spider-Man movies.

OK, so how am I wrong then?

>Universal still owns distributing rights to any future Hulk movies, which means they have first say in whether or not they want the movie to be made.

And this is evidence that Universal WANTS to make another one? I said they walked away from super hero movies and your proof they want to be in is the inability to make a hulk movie? No reference to the kick-ass franchise being dropped, or them letting Namor go. Or even mention of Sean Daniel, long time universal producer(who still works there) is now working with Sony on Valiant comics. Why not universal? Cause they didn't want it. Universal is trying to make other projects, not super hero projects.

The fuck? That's like trading a penny for a dollar bill.

It's possible Deadpool ends up making more money though.

Batman 1989 didn't do his origin, just had a quick flash back scene

They didn't trade NTW for Ego they needed Marvels ok to drastically change the characters powers in exchange Marvel asked for Ego

Are any of the F4 animated series worth a watch?

If you buy that. Most people think a little more went on here than just those two characters. With Legion and Gifted and so on.

Did Fan4stic do anything right other than avoiding the cringy title drop Roger Corman's movie did?

Isn't Namor owned by Universal?

>Like 99% of the best cape comics of all time are NOT origin stories.

The origin should be somewhere in there, considering many people who see these movies aren't actually comic book fans

That being said it can be done in different ways, it doesn't have to be an entire movie focusing on the origin itself, that seems to be a thing because everyone wants a franchise and expects the first movie to be...well, the first of many to come

Most people don't care about origins though. The origin movies make the least amount of money. People don't want to have to wait an hour and a half for the payoff, they want the character doing shit from the get go. That's why Winter Soldier is the best of the MCU.

Yet they are only box office poison because of Fox.

Interesting chicken and egg situation

Fox couldn't have known that when they first picked up the rights. It's not the studio's fault they've fucked it up time after time, it's the production/direction crew.

I'm fine with really quickly telling their origin, but origin story movies tend to have it be the entire movie.

If they make another FF movie they just better not waste too much time on the origin story, again.

If only Fox hadn't wanted a crazy amount for a double now thrice failed series.

Uh, no. Fox is box office poison.

>James Gunn also confirmed that Marvel traded the rights to the Watcher from Fox in exchange for that one Teenage Negasonic Warhead or whatever the fuck she's called to be used in Deadpool.

Ego. They traded Ego for the girl.

He could make some cameos in other films too, like a passing mention of Latveria.

they don't want another company to embarrass them and do it better

>he isn't hyped for Universal/Dreamworks Captain' Underpants

>Ego. They traded Ego for the girl.
Trading your Kuribo for a Blue eyes white dragon. Someone got ripped off.

>that Susan Storm

Actually this and this. Fox got SUPER butthurt that once in the hands of Marvel, Daredevil became this amazing netflix original, and Fox would rather hold onto something of possible value, not knowing what to do with it, rather than give it to someone else who can take all the potential and turn it into an amazing value they never could.

How? Deadpool made a shit ton of money, possible more than GotG2 will make. It's not like Ego is some big get for Marvel. They were both bottom of the barrel properties that were exchanged.

There's no reason at all they couldn't work. PAD's Hulk is one of the best comic runs of all time and does anything even need to be said of Kirby and Lee's FF?

Saying Hulk or FF "just won't work" is like saying Spider-Man won't work. Just because incompetents made bad Hulk and FF movies does not mean they can't work, just as incompetents made bad Spider-Man movies with the two trash ASM movies. And if ASM 1 and 2 were the only Spidey movies, people might be saying the same thing about Spidey not working.

Because Marvel will turn them into box office gold. It's literally just out of spite now. Sony damn near instantly gave the Ghost Rider rights back after the second movie bombed.

>and since that includes dudes like Surfer, Galactus, Namor, ect.

Namor wasn't included with the F4 rights. He was sold separately to Universal and is mostly back with Marvel. (Solo distribution rights are still with Universal).

In a perfect world MCU would get FF back and have it be directed by Brad Bird because frankly The Incredibles is the best FF movie this far

youtube.com/watch?v=XggH5-vLlUQ

There's the whole origin story in one minute. I'm not saying the movie needs to be as brisk as this, but to pretend it needs to take up half of the movie is absurd.

Here's what you do. Have the movie start with them rocketing into space. Expository dialogue gives us the hows and the whys. Ten or fifteen minutes of banter between the characters establishes chemistry. Disaster strikes, they have a rough landing, and by minute 20 of the film they're discovering their powers. By minute 30, you've got the characters where you need to be and the story begins in earnest.

>How? Deadpool made a shit ton of money, possible more than GotG2 will make.

Deadpool cost about a quarter as much to make but Guardians has already earned about half as much worldwide in one week as Deadpool did in its entire run. So it'll be a pretty close thing.

Deadpool was aimed at adults while GotG is clearly a family movie, makes little sense to compare them, like trying to compare Blade Runner to Back To The Future.

The teenage girl was not spectacular in Deadpool but the movie would have probably been worse without her than with her. Also they obviously had a use for that character, rather than the other, and it's generally better to have a worse character you can use than a better character that doesn't fit anywhere.

At this point in the MCU it'd be disastrous to include the FF even if they got the rights back because it'd be hell to fit in AND I feel like all these shitty movies will just make people not give a fuck. They just need to give Rupert Murdoch a handjob and then put the Council of Reeds in the Avengers 4 post credits scene where one of the Reeds goes, "We've found a universe where we don't exist... ever." and they all just shrug or something.

That's true of the comics too, there's a ton of poorly written crap that just has a character there to justify them being on the cover.
(Wolverine)
But the best-of-the-best stories Sup Forums can name are all about characters that fans and writers had given up on and then they're given one last story to really shine in that only exists to showcase the core of who that character is.
I'm sure you can think of a few examples. I know I can.

>tfw I remember watching this
i feel old

The origin is the least interesting thing about them, so much so they did not even change their identities and literally continued with their day jobs and saved the world part-time

Was he? I thought he was part of the FF rights.
Good to know.

>No..... this is fucking dumb. Chitauri are nothing like skrulls. Some minor connection in story is not worthy of trademark elements.

Did you read Millar's Ultimate FF? Millar went and outright confirmed the Chitauri were the Ultimate universe version of Skrulls (and either he or Land depicted them looking like the 616 Skrulls). This also might've given them that technicality since I don't even get how MCU would even have had any rights to Skrulls in the first place. Kree-Skrull War maybe? But other than that the Skrulls were predominantly associated with the Fantastic Four. It's not like Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver where you have two characters who started out as X-villains but predominantly became associated with the Avengers instead of the X-Men.

*cough* King's Vision *cough*

Universal secured the rights 'just in case' when their lawyers pointed out there was just barely enough similarities between him and the protag of water world that it could be an issue. which meant Marvel didn't have the rights to sell when they made their deal with Fox

>Kevin Costner played Namor in an alternate universe where Waterworld was rebranded as a Marvel property

Open the next movie with that, zoom out the tv and the Thing and Johnny are watching the tv and Sue call them for dinner, Reed is working, she goes and call him too, after that a couple of flashbacks in the dinner and is done, all the origin history in less than 5 min

No we don't. Just quickly recap that shit and move on. Origin stories are the cancer of superhero films because they all generally hit the same beat of

>Wh-what's happening to me?
>angst
>sadness
>figuring things out

They used to be a big deal before Spider-Man, weren't they?.

It was a valiant effort of Batman V Superman to just fast forward over Batman's origin story to focus on the real plot. Too bad said real plot sucks.

Another positive example was Captain America: TFA. The would be hero jumps voluntarily to the process that would give him his powers and instead of angsting or being confused about the changes he jumped at the call imediately and rushed to punch a Nazi.

Even North Koreans in gulags who've been deprived of any contact with the outside world know how the Fantastic Four came to be. We don't another origin story to explain shit we already know.