Quite a few people are praising it for being subversive and deconstructing Star Wars...

Quite a few people are praising it for being subversive and deconstructing Star Wars. KOTOR 2 fans seem to like it for this and also what was done to Luke. Are we really just brainlets for not appreciating the effort?

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I'm a KOTOR 2 fag and I hate it.

Sup Forums is nothing but fucking brainlets , have you read the bullshit that gets posted here daily?

this
TLJ was good though

No, because it's not a good deconstruction overall and film still has huge structural and pacing problems as well. The only really good subversion are the ones involving Rey, and to a lesser degree Kylo and Luke since both of those character are involved interesting subversion but still very flawed in execution. I mean just for example Luke bitches about the Jedi but he doesn't really go into detail about why he hates them now nor does anyone discuss what they should change and in the end he basically just changes his mind for no reason other than because he likes Rey and now he has hope or some shit. Then at the end of the movie we're left right back were we started with Rebels and Empire and good Jedi and evil Sith without effectively reconstructing, or effectively deconstructing them for that matter, those ideas or doing anything else new or interesting with them. That's not even getting into how fucking irredeemably stupid and boring every other part of the story that doesn't involve Rey, Luke and Kylo is.

>KOTOR 2 fans seem to like it

What shoddy bait.

It's the disrespect to the craft that bother me the most. Trolling isn't a game.

I'm a KOTOR 2 dicklicker, and I despised TLJ, buddy. Don't twist your honeyed words. You don't speak for us.

>Why TLJ is good

-Audiovisually a true Star Wars film that embarrasses previous Disney films and prequels

-Kylo's troubled relation to Rey, Luke and the dark side

-Kylo's ascension to power

-The battle in Snoke's throne room that climaxes in rebel flag ship ramming them

-Actually acknowledges and respects the prequels unlike TFA

-The battle on Crait, extended and sells you the idea that the Resistance are in a tight spot

-Adds more world building

-Luke being a broken hero that learns to take responsibility for his actions. The ending reveals Luke's new plan to stop Kylo. One more adhering to the Jedi code.

-Actual drama and tension within the Resistance. Not just a singular unit against another singular unit. Same internal conflict is portrayed with The First Order

-The mysteries of TFA finished in an unexpected yet thematically relevant matter. Doesn't shroud itself in needless mysteries that TFA committed

-Is it's own story. Finally decides to push Star Wars forward and stop having it revel in its own OT nostalgia. Another sin of TFA.

-Humor while overplayed often makes more sense in context. Poe stalling for time. Leia playing with C3PO. Luke showing Rey he's a hermit now and not the hero she expected.

Obsidian's deconstruction was smartly written. Rian is a contrarian faggot twists on everything just for the sake of having them. There was no thought or purpose.

comparing TLJ to KOTOR 2 is a massive insult

>this is who's criticizing TLJ
You don't even understand it.
Try reading a bit between the lines, because out of all the things you could nitpick, what you said was made very clear by Rian.

Best star wars since esb. Solid 7/10.

The movie sucked dick bro. It doesn't even understand the lore or what it's trying to deconstruct. It assassinates classic characters so it can shoehorn them into Ryan's brilliant ideas (DUDE BABY HITLER LMAO). He did this shit in Looper and it wasn't clever .

Not to mention the millions of issues, like pacing, useless character, contrived plot, bash your head in social messages, dull visuals, zero imagination in alien /costume design, etc etc

Deconstruction is always boring anyway. Concentrate on telling a good story first - that's what I'm paying for.

^^^^THIS^^^^
Get fucked, OP. The Last Jedi is full of shit, as is your assumption of KOTOR II fans "liking" it. Fuck you.

How? Save me another two and a half hours an explain how.

The SJWs are out in full force, I see.

>mysteries of TFA finished
BOLLOCKS

My primary problems with it:
>Leia force-pulling herself to safety after her bridge blows up
>Entire pointless 30 min casino plot with Finn and asian girl
>Snoke dead with no explanation of who he was
>Luke hating the Jedi and abandoning the Force then using the Force to fool everyone (audience included) in the finale
>Luke fucking Skywalker is written out by evaporating
>Leia alive but her actress is dead

>You don't even understand it.
This. I never thought I'd see the day when most people can't even understand a Star Wars movie.

I'm a kotorfag and I love it. But this board being full of brainlets and manchildren is nothing new.
>muh character assassination
>muh inability to accept the corruption of the Jedi Order that created Vader coming full circle because the Jedi were my childhood heroes and I'm sad because my toy lightsaber was used to do bad stuff

all the left knows how to do is deconstruct. not to create.


it's post-modern nihilist garbage

desu you need to have a very high IQ to understand the Last Jedi

>It doesn't even understand the lore or what it's trying to deconstruct.
Indeed.
"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic. Before the dark times. Before the Empire."

But hey, we fucked up once so it was always a bad idea. Burn it all down.

...

Why did you post a photo of yourself, user?

>muh inability to accept the corruption of the Jedi Order that created Vader coming full circle because the Jedi were my childhood heroes and I'm sad because my toy lightsaber was used to do bad stuff

But the Jedi were already arrogant dicks in the prequels. Rian just put in several sentences of exposition describing it.

Were the prequels really too intelligent for you to see what's going on?

TLJ fags are the worst kind of pseud faggots,like JFC

That's my point though. We saw how fucked the Jedi order was in the prequels. In the OT however, Luke is supposed to restore it to exactly the way it was because Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't tell him shit about its flaws. Knowing what we know from the prequels, that's not a satisfying way to end it at all. And now in TLJ he falls victim to those very same flaws and finally understands that the Jedi order can't continue to exist in this form.

>subversive and deconstructing
If they had actually done this you might have a leg to stand on.

What actually happened is they gathered all the fan theories on everything left over from TFA. They looked at what was left and since there was nothing left that someone had not at least given a single thought to, that was what they did...

Nothing.

There is a million things wrong with this movie without getting into how it breaks the logic of the SW universe or disrespects the OT. The Last Jedi is without a doubt the worst written Star Wars movie to date. Things happen against all logic because the plot demands it. The chase subplot literally makes no sense and should have ended in seconds. Weaponizing hyperspace has already been explained to death. It has to break the character of Luke Skywalker to make the Kylo Ren backstory happen. Seriously, everything in ROTJ was negated between this and TFA. It's like the movie didn't happen. TLJ teases the possibility of pushing the universe in new directions but ultimately goes nowhere. Doesn't commit to any of its potentially interesting "new" ideas. It's literally a rehash of TESB with sprinkles of ROTJ thrown in for good measure. TLJ is the most inconsequential of all SW films.

But the Jedi Order got prideful and arrogant at the height at their power, that's why Darth Sidious won. There were thousands of years or peace and prosperity. Again, these are things that sound nice, but do not work in the lore and the universe at all.

>he basically just changes his mind for no reason
It's like you're choosing to ignore Luke's past.
Rian implies Luke learned the imminent danger of letting a sith run loose ahead of an Empire at the end of ROTJ, so when he senses Ben's darkness, he's tempted to try to save billions of lives traded for the life of his apprentice.
Since this was the very action that sent Ben to Snoke, he's guilt ridden and thinks everything is his fault, causing him to isolate himself in order to cause no more harm.
When Rey appears, Luke learns that the force will continue to flow regardless of where Luke is, so he's inspired to return ans fix his mistakes, something that is a huge nod to Luke's former optimism.

>bitches about jedi but doesn't go into detail
The very reason Luke wanted to kill Ben when he was his apprentice was that getting rid of him THEN AND THERE would be the ultimate good thing to do.
Since the jedi has this contrary oath to stay your hand unless forced to defend yourself, Luke is betraying the good by doing an ultimately good thing.
Even Yoda comes along and tells that very thing to Luke's (and you, the viewer's) face.

I think these two things alone points enough towards your inability to understand things that aren't just outright said to you, so I'll stop posting right here.

It's literally the Transformers of movies

This

But wha's really comical about this on that foundation of nihilism the movie still says shit like "love will conquer all" because it has to sell to kids

It's disgusting

> And now in TLJ he falls victim to those very same flaws

Those were not the same flaws. Sneaking into your nephews room and thinking about killing him is not the same as being too arrogant to stop your downfall. It's momentary lapse of judgement and contrived storytelling , versus classic fall of an empire.

>that the Jedi order can't continue to exist in this form.

But Rey can fix it right..? She has everything she needs which were two one sentence lessons from Luke just follow your feelings lol.

All I'm saying is that the very concept of the Jedi order lasting forever and snuffing out the Sith is antithetical to Lucas' vision. The Anakin prophecy spoke of him bringing balance to the Force. Light dominating forever is not balance. However, what we're seeing developing between Kylo and Rey likely is.

If Rey fixes it all and restores the Jedi order, I will shake your hand and admit that the sequels had shit storytelling. What I'm truly hoping for is the abolition of the Jedi and the Sith forever and the birth of something entirely new.
And by the way, Luke's problem absolutely was arrogance. He thought, at least in that moment, that he had the right to decide who lives and who dies based on own goals and wishes. What do you call that?

I don't know about this. In the prequel it always felt like the reason Sidious was able to outsmart the Jedi was because they were all incredibly retarded, not because they were arrogant. I can easily blame that on poor writing but you shouldn't rely on bad hack writing from the Prequels for your new movie. I mean Luke still doesn't specify why the Jedi are bad and why they must end and we can't rely on the prequels to give us a satisfying explanation on why they're shit so how are we supposed to know what specifically was the problem? If were to pick something I'd say it had something to with suppressing emotion and being stoic emotionless weirdos like all the Jedi in the prequels but that doesn't really come up at all with Luke in this movie.

Yoda says in TESB that the future isn't set in stone. Between that and how much Luke believed in his own father (who had done things many times worse than anything Kylo Ren has done), it's out of character for him to have acted in that manner. It's even more jarring that he does nothing about it. He unleashed what amounts to another Sith on the universe with Skywalker blood running through his veins and doesn't even attempt to correct his mistake. What did he think was going to happen? Kylo was going to forget about it and turn to a life of good?

I call that a disturbing lack of faith in Luke The Redeemer

>The Anakin prophecy spoke of him bringing balance to the Force. Light dominating forever is not balance.

According to Ryan Dickface. Not according to Lucas vision.

>However, what we're seeing developing between Kylo and Rey likely is.

So Disney can make millions of star shit movies. ROTJ was happy ending that would ensure hundreds if not thousands of years of prosperity and rebuilding. The republic and the Jedi order got corrupt at the height of their power,they got degenerate and corrupt, splintered and now they can rebuilt. It's classic fall of an empire stuff.

Rian dickface just doesn't understand anything

nothing about what Luke does is cool and deconstructive, he just acts stupid and illogical in the movie like someone tried to marginalize and belittle his character as much as they could get away with

If it's antithetical, why was Ep.IV 'A NEW HOPE', and Ep. VI 'RETURN OF THE JEDI' ???

Let me start by saying that I think I might be the biggest KOTOR 2 fan (or apologyst, depending where you stand) there is.

TLJ is an edgy teenager interpretation of the themes that you can find in KOTOR 2. Luke "gives up on the force" and the Jedi because of his most retarded moment where he ignites his lightsaber at the mere presence of fear like it was the only way he knew how to hande problems. When in reality, he let's everyone down, because he depended on that "laser sword" as he disrespectfully calls it, even more than the force itself. What a master.

Kreia never gives up on the force. It's who she is, how she sees, and everything that surrounds her. And she hates it. Because in SW lore, it IS everything. It's what determines the fate of millions of people, at the irresponsible hands that the demigods that are Jedi and Sith. And despite all that hate, she uses it with full mastery, and studies it in hope to learn how to exterminate it, and free the fate of every living thing. She loves the exile like he was his son, because when she sees him, and the karmic damage that his actions in Malachor V left in him, she sees the death of the force, her ultimate goal.

Of course all that hate corrupted her (or at least that's what the game suggests), but her motivation are miles ahead of whatever the mouse crapped on Luke.

>He thought, at least in that moment, that he had the right to decide who lives and who dies based on own goals and wishes. What do you call that?

cynical character assassination of a beloved classic character
and bad, contrived writing

>What I'm truly hoping for is the abolition of the Jedi and the Sith forever and the birth of something entirely new.

Wat?

How is the possible when the Jedi and Sith unless we KOTOR 2 and try to eliminate the force from the universe.

As long as there is the force and people give into to their ego there will be Sith. If there is Sith there will be Jedi.

Vice Versa as long as their are Force monks AKA Jedi some in their rank will eventually think the dark-side is a more useful tool

The appeal of Star Wars is in its fairy tale nature. You can deconstruct it but you can't deconstruct it without making it less appealing.

And it's like you're choosing to ignore Luke's past when he refused to kill Vader who had already killed countless people and was basically the second most evil person in the galaxy. He did this despite Obi-Wan and Yoda both telling him that Vader was beyond saving and that he should be killed. Luke Skywalker would have sensed that his nephew was feeling a pull to the dark side and would have tried to keep him from turning, not try to kill him. And if Luke failed he wouldn't have run away and cried, he would have gone after Ben and try to turn him back to the Light like he did with Vader. Jesus Christ in The Force Awakens they even talk about how Kylo Ren still has good in him. Luke would have sensed the shit out of that and gone to turn him back.

>we can't rely on the prequels to give us a satisfying explanation on why they're shit so how are we supposed to know what specifically was the problem?
Nigga I'm sorry but no matter how much you want to pretend they aren't, the prequels are 100% as canon as the OT. You not liking them doesn't change anything.
>If were to pick something I'd say it had something to with suppressing emotion and being stoic emotionless weirdos like all the Jedi in the prequels but that doesn't really come up at all with Luke in this movie.
I like where you're coming from, but it actually does. Instead of facing up to his mistakes, his pain and his grief as well as the emotions of Leia and Han, he literally cuts himself off from everyone and everything. And in the end he fails Rey as a teacher because he can't accept her anger and her feelings towards Ben.

>Light dominating forever is not balance.

Except it was. There's no light/darkness balance, the darkness is a corruption of the force that shouldn't exist.

Ofc well now they changed it so they can make billions of sequels

>Sup Forums is nothing but fucking brainlets , have you read the bullshit that gets posted here daily?
I'm reading it right now.

>not appreciating the effort
Effort=/=good

TLJ is in the exact same camp as the prequels: decent concepts ruined by terrible execution.

Holy fuck im reinstalling it

>I'm truly hoping for is the abolition of the Jedi and the Sith forever and the birth of something entirely new

What Kylo Ren did was a classic Sith maneuver, it was what every Sith did. And Luke called Rey "The Last Jedi" she's even shown having the sacred jedi books.

EPISODE VI: RETURN OF THE JEDI

EPISODE VII: THE FORCE AWAKENS

EPISODE VIII: THE LAST JEDI

>cynical character assassination of a beloved classic character
this. it's like turning cinderella into a whore.

I'd appreciate it more if they cut out half of the film.

Your post is nonsensical. Define "balance" for me then.
I'm not saying light and dark won't exist. I'm talking about the creation of something like a Grey Jedi order that will draw on the ideas of both the Jedi and the Sith to create something better. And of course there will always be good and evil, but it doesn't have to fall under those titles.

Fucking this. The Force was better when it had a single state and that the darkness was a corruption. This whole Jedi and Sith shit sucks ass.

Has it ever occurred to you that people change? That in a few years, bored with her faggot prince, Cindrella could indeed become a whore and that wouldn't be bad storytelling but simple human nature?

This is a major problem with trying to shoehorn in pre-existing characters and well lore and universe into "themes" and "ideas" you think are clever.

If it doesn't work, either adapt your idea or change it .

>(who had done things many times worse than anything Kylo Ren has done)
*Who MIGHT have went on to do something bad. According to Rian, a dude that thought a man that murdered a bunch of children could be redeemed would go on to try and murder a kid in his sleep because of a dream.

Her character is helped a lot thanks to her insanely useful passive chain ability. Fuck, almost all of the characters in KOTOR2 are significantly better than the KOTOR's characters.

>yfw when Luke could've been the new Kreia

I don't want the prequels to be non-canon but they don't give a good enough reason on their own for the extermination of the Jeid order, it's more an example of why they need higher standards, maybe a mental aptitude test to be a Jedi.You need to give a better discussion on the problem with the Jedi way if that what you going to do because the prequels don't. And he does cut himself of from the the force but that's after he already fucked up presumable due to different reasons, arrogance and fear going by the flashbacks, which are personal failing rather than philosophic issues with the Jedi. And I wouldn't really say Luke is suppressing his emotion the way the PT Jedi did so much as he is running away from responsibility and wallowing in self pity.

Yes but the Jedi are not approaching the Force correctly if they aim to turn themselves into emotionless suffering autists and strike down anyone who so much as lifts a finger against their ideals, are they?
Honestly I love the idea of erasing the Force from the universe forever.

>but it doesn't have to fall under those titles.

I don't understand why an evil force using the force would stop being labeled "Sith"

KOTOR2 is artsy shit for teenagers stop pretending something else

Everyone calls KOTOR2 a masterpiece despite the fact that it's buggy, laughably easy, and has no real ending.

Everyone calls out TLJ's flaws and nobody has called it a masterpiece.

Why could that be?

evil person*

>masks are dumb and childish
>Kylo destroys his mask

>nose scars are dumb and childish
>Kylo now has a badass eye scar

>archetypal heroes are dumb and childish
>Luke is irresponsible and a coward

>lore is dumb and childish
>Snoke is no one and dies immediately

>"chosen ones" are dumb and childish
>Rey isn't special

>good magic knights are dumb and childish
>Yoda burns the Jedi scriptures

>bad magic knights are dumb and childish
>Knights of Ren don't exist

>aliens are dumb and childish
>Ackbar dies offscreen and only humans get screentime

>dashing pilots are dumb and childish
>Poe is a buffoon who gets his friends killed

Literally a normie director, who thought giving him control over THE space fantasy story was a good idea?

vaughnlive.tv/bepis12

GET INNN

>has called it a masterpiece.

Some have called the most intellectual of all SWs

has it occured to you that fairy tales are not about realism? but about archetypes serving a story that tells of a higher purpose? of destiny?
look at how dignified obi-wan was in star wars (i refuse to use the common nomenclatura/naming).
luke skywalker was the fairy tale's fucking prince. they turned him into a murderous, disgusting old milk-slurping geezer.
they should never have tried to produce sequels. they have ruined the happy ending of the OT.

Thanks for actually engaging with me instead of calling me a shill and a retard. It's pretty rare and I appreciate it.
I see exactly where you're coming from. The point here is that the Jedi order really fucking needs to reform from the ground up, to the point where it will be so different from the Jedi order we saw in the prequels that you won't be able to call it the Jedi order anymore. I wasn't talking about destroying literally everything the Jedi stood for, that would be dumb. Just reform and rebranding.

Disney calls it a masterpiece and will stomp on anyone who says otherwise till they publicly agree.

The game was clearly rushed and despite that even without the restoration mod it has hands down the best story in any Star Wars game. See

Finally my movies about space wizards and giant balls that destroy planets make me feel validated as an adult enjoying them.

This. "Subversive" and "deconstruction" don't automatically make any movie good by themselves. They're just tools to be used on a story. In the case of TLJ the story is just an excuse to get from one "subversive" scene to the next and that's why so much of it is boring.

I think Luke's side of the plot is at least interesting, and I don't think it's the absolute character assassination Sup Forums makes it out to be. The movie has way bigger problems, not the least of which that half the 3 hour movie is about an awful subplot that doesn't amount to a single thing.

mark hamill understood 1977 that star wars is a fairy tale. 40 years later, the makers of the sequels did not understand the nature of what they were trying to expand on. they did not understand the basic theme.

STAR WARS IS NOT SPACE OPERA. space opera is merely somewhat popular. star wars goes way beyond that.

source:
youtube.com/watch?v=nKvbGjqIHY0

Is The Last Jedi the equivalent of those edgy fairytale remakes they stopped making because no one was watching them

It having no real ending is easily fixed with the unofficial contentpack that brings back much of what obsidian removed

The fact that it can be buggy has nothing to do with the story

>murderous
He didn't actually commit murder. He simply made a very human mistake. I for one prefer my fairytale prince to be a human being and not a one-dimensional cartoon. I've always been drawn to fairytales where characters have actual flaws and when I was a kid I didn't even like Luke because I thought he was too perfect (nowadays though I love OT Luke, so don't call me an edgefag).

>has it occured to you that fairy tales are not about realism?

The deconstruction audience are usually pretentious cunts who are willing to mangle a good story rather than execute one to an audience's satisfaction.

The Last Jedi is pretty close to a kino masterpiece.

> I've always been drawn to fairytales where characters have actual flaws

Did you even pay attention to the OT then? Luke is really flawed

>He simply made a very human mistake
He could have made many mistakes that don't contradict his character from the OT. He literally did not make that mistake and learned from that scenario . It's like it never happened and he didn't learn anything.

This. I liked the way in Looper he decided to say "don't expect time travel to make any sense just go with it".

But it was NEVER clever. It was just a way that gave him freedom to do some crazy shit in the same way that schlocky movies like Timecop with the "the same 2 objects can't touch each other" thing.

Kotor 2 was pure kino

Yeah how great it would've been to see Luke being an active misanthropist who refuses to help others or work for the greater good, hey wait

I was tfw to unintelligent to see Luke's flaws in the OT when I was 6 years old, if that's what you're asking.

Still better than an inactive nephew murdering Luke who runs away for decades for no real reason

I don't think there's a single RPG that's held in high regards that isn't laden with bugs anyways.

>Honestly I love the idea of erasing the Force from the universe forever.
Then why would you watch, why would there even BE Star Wars?

>KOTOR 2 fans seem to like it for this
Nah. We appreciate the attempt but KOTOR 2 did it far better. Film failed to deliver on the premise.

you would kill all life in the universe so there wouldn't be too many good stories to tell

>Kotor 2 was good
>Kotor 2 has a good story
Go back to Sup Forums, and never return.

>abolition of Jedi and Sith forever

this should have been Snoke's goal. burn the whole fucking thing down, bring about order by destroying both sides after centuries of them fighting each other

>Force is gone
>no more Star Wars
>no shit sequels
>no Mouse money
How do you not get that this is THE best ending, user?

fairy tales are about ideals to aspire after. not sure how much letitng milk run over your beard in front of a young girl sets a standard worth emulating for young boys.
i mean why try to be a good boy and fight for the good side when you only end up like that? it misunderstands what message star wars was about. the message was that you'll be rewarded if you fight for the good.