So is DC Comics afraid to portray Batman in a negative light or something? Why is it...

So is DC Comics afraid to portray Batman in a negative light or something? Why is it, then whenever we get an Elseworld story about superheroes going rogue, it's usually Superman and Wonder Woman, but never Batman? The guy who has a contingency plan for every hero. The guy who many claim is the most dangerous human on Earth. The guy who has always struggled with crossing the line of killing.

It really just comes off like Batwanking that he's always the incorruptible one in these stories, because he's the main money maker.

I'm pretty sure the most fucked up Earth in Countdown was one where Batman went nuts.

Because you expect Batman to go rogue, Superman WAS more unexpected before they ran it into the ground.

Because evil Batman is just a less interesting Lex Luthor. There is no story you can tell with him that wouldn't be better as a Lex story.

What about Evil Batman v Lex?

>Superman WAS more unexpected before they ran it into the ground.

Well that's the thing. It's SO run into the ground at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if in the Justice League movie they fight a temporarily evil Superman.

No it wasn't. And in a way, that was still Batwank, since it was portrayed as pretty much a paradise, with the only real price being paid being Bruce's innocence.
>Superman WAS more unexpected before they ran it into the ground.
They really did. I'm so sick and tired of evil Superman by this point. I hate how some people want the DCEU to go full Injustice but that idea is so fucking terrible.

Lex would definitely win

It wasn't the most fucked up one, but it was the weakest one since the heroes had nothing to do so they all got complacent and fat.

Imagine a Rocky movie where Rocky doesn't need a training montage because he's stronger fthan Ivan Drago and squashes him easy at the end...except Rocky's still the guy the movie follows and Drago's not.

That is what you're asking for. An underdog antagonist.

It doesn't fucking work, it goes against the core structure of how stories are written. Batman's entire character is about him starting out as the weak one and overcoming the odds through human resourcefulness. That's a main character plotline, it's not the plotline of the guy the main character beats.

>with the only real price being paid being Bruce's innocence
That and the fact that Earth was ripe for an attack by outside forces, which is what ended up happening. Superman Prime and Monarch decimated every hero there because they were so out of practice.

Batman is already enough of an asshole in main continuity.

If Batman's the underdog why does he keep winning? Checkmate, Batfags.

Every Batman story stars an underdog protagonist. Some untrained idiot like the Joker is no match for Bruce. What are you even talking about?

Including good ol' Fatanna here. You know this bitch be like:

>Gnirb em lla fo eht stunod!

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Well, it WAS Countdown and everything.

>but never Batman?

>Some untrained idiot like the Joker is no match for Bruce.

Joker and Riddler type stories are about Bruce's brains being tested instead of his brawn, he's the underdog in those in that he starts out not knowing or understanding their way of thinking and what their plans are, and then he gradually figures it out. Detective work is the training montage.

So every Superman comic is bad? Got it.

If Batman's evil, then Superman/WW/anyone with powers would fuck him up. It would be a fucking boring story.
Like someone else mentioned, what makes the idea of Batman winning attractive is that he's the underdog, he's the one that's supposed to lose so it's more fun to see how the writer makes him win.
An underdog villain is just not a very good premise for a story, because nobody wants to see him win anyway.

Batman's entire character arc is being incorruptible, doing the right thing no matter what anyone thinks of him. I think The Dark Knight movie provides great insight into his character.

Underdogs ARE supposed to win. The point of the underdog is a feel-good story about force of will overcoming a challenge.

It's the whole reason the 2nd act exists in the classic Three Act Structure. The whole reason you create a bad situation for the hero is then you get to watch them rise to the challenge.

Superman's villains all being weaker than him is a meme, casual.

So every Superman comic where his villain is weaker than him is bad? Got it.

:^)

Batman is the superior to the vast majority of his rogues in terms of strength, intelligence and resources. He's not an underdog at all unless he's facing Ra's

Sorry I meant antagonist like the post I was replying to.

We do agree though.

The thing is, if he ends up being the corrupted one, it's STILL gonna Batwank because he'll have to be able to hold off a bunch of heroes (at least Superman, if WW ends up being Bats' cock holster with some other heroes).

Even in ASBAR, everybody hates his guts, he's a terrible person, and Miller takes some cheap shots at the character, but since he's the most popular hero and it's HIS book, he still gets to call the shots. Every elseworld or book with him in it will be like that.

Batman and co alone sold more books through bookscan in 2015 and 2016 than the other smaller publishers, usually making up 500k+ units. Batman and co make up some of the more popular Halloween and cosplay outfits, even above the likes of Spider man.
We just have to get used to Batman being the most popular DC hero.

Actually look at Supermans villians. Even low tier scrubs like Parasite and Metallo are tailor made to fuck him up

But it's gotten to the point where everyone but Batman is the underdog

Closest I've ever read to an evil Batman was the elseworld where he became a vampire. By the end of that he was full on evil and offered Gordon the chance to reave the Earth clean of humanity just to quench his thirst.

But if he wins all the time how is he an underdog? An underdog needs to get kicked down every now and again.

Batman in the 80's got his ass handed to him all the time. Batman nowadays wins every fucking fight he enters, like pic related would never happen nowadays. It's absurd yet perfect for a villain.

Imagine Millar's Nemesis (but probably less retarded) versus the DCU.

Originally it was because of the shock factor of DC's biggest and best hero going evil. Now it's because Batman is the biggest seller so they aren't going to do anything to smear him for the retards who say dumb shit about how they love Bruce for being a normal human who's always right.
...What? Supes doesn't fight normal humans. Lex doesn't count with all the bullshit he pulls with his 12th level intellect.

The Toyman.

NORMAL humans, he's a talking, animated ventriloquist puppet.

Hahhaaha, no.

>he's a talking, animated ventriloquist puppet
wut
Do you even comics bro?

I unironically want to see Omega Superman on a movie screen
I will forgive Snyder for everything he has done if he would give me Omega Superman

The fuck?

Only this past year, really. I tried getting into DC a while ago but then after I finished LEGION I found out flashpoint happened, said fuck DC for a decade and now I'm trying to catch up again.
I was going off the JLU toyman, didn't know he was so different.

heh I'm working on a short fan comic with the evil batman premise :) why does this thread have to come up all of a sudden before I put it on /hyw/ just check into the threads sometime so y'all can see, and you can tell me if it's edgy.

Maybe he only saw the Superman animated series one.

>tfw no comic where Batman turns out to be the true evil mastermind all along

way to completely ignore me saying just that

But that was still a human, was he not?

DC in the 80's was actually generally written very well.
You're comparing a well-crafted piece of jewelry 30 years old to a piece of fresh dogshit dropped 10 minutes ago; one will always be a consistently better example then the other, for the rest of history.

The whole "underdog" thing is about the story's internal logic, not what character is popular or not. In a story where there are superpowered beings, a non-superpowered one will always be the underdog.

>Batman nowadays wins every fucking fight he enters, like pic related would never happen nowadays
You gotta thank Morrison for that. Before his run, even though Batman was the most popular character, he was still mostly grounded (as grounded as a superhero can be, of course).
The Moench/Dixon/Grant years had him constantly fucking up before eventually getting things right.
It was Morrison and his Jesus bullshit that turned him into the OTT thing he's nowadays, and he did the same for the Joker, who was mostly an opportunistic asshole before the whole "super sanity" bullshit.

Ironically Morrison did that just so Batman's presence would actually makes sense on the JLA, but it ruined Batman's presence OFF the JLA.

Fuck, you got me.

Unfortunately most Batman stories that show him fighting superheros made these days rarely if ever show him struggling particularly hard to do it.
He usually just pulls some mystical bullshit plan out of his ass that he had all along and instantly wins; there's no underdog-ness in most stories at all.

Then again we can't expect modern comics authors to ever tell good stories or understand proper story structure, can we?
Holding them to the status of actually good writers is perhaps a bit unfair.

>Why is it, then whenever we get an Elseworld story about superheroes going rogue, it's usually Superman and Wonder Woman, but never Batman?

...he's already a villain, OP. He's a billionaire control freak who dresses in a gimp suit to beat up the poor, the mentally disturbed, and the disfigured.

He's already the villain. If he were a fat 70 year old with a shitty wig driving up and down 5th avenue on a golf cart with the Russian ambassador shooting cops, it'd be too on the nose and the kind of chumps that have traditionally supported his titles, which have often supported the rest of the company, would abandon DC and then they'd go bust.

So they keep it subtle.

t. Ennis

You're giving them too much credit even then.
Nearly all of his modern plans inevitably involve punching someone, using some kind of thing that magically makes them more punchable to him.
It's not even older Batman where his contingencies seemed intelligent because they specifically AVOIDED a physical confrontation on his part because that player into the strengths of superhuman foes he can't beat in a straight fight.

>gimp suit
You fetish shaming Batman?

You mean all those years in charge of different Batman titles were just so he would make sense in the JLA?
I'd say it's Morrison being a writer with a lot of shitty ideas and editorial immunity.

>Nearly all of his modern plans inevitably involve punching someone, using some kind of thing that magically makes them more punchable to him.
This honestly. Bruce's "preptime" is just him going
>I was only pretending to be retarded! Behold my McGuffin!
And then he wins because it's Batman so no one has to actually try to create an intelligent plan.

>Moench
Way underrated writer, by the way.

But even within the story's internal logic Batman is not an underdog.
In fact the whole "Batman is vulnerable because he doesn't have superpowers" has always been bullshit considering that his ability to always pull life saving gadgets out of his ass is practically a superpower

I was reading Ditko ASM last night, and Spidey actually does some BNE & investigating and gathering clues.
Does Batman do any of that?

He used to, nowadays writers fall back on the ol' Batman '66 method. Batman puts some shit into his computer and it tells him who did shit.

Maybe he did at some point but nowadays no.
For a character who's supposedly "The World's Greatest Detective" he really does jack shit of actually being a detective.
Most of the time his deduction skills boil down to "happens to stumble on a lucky clue" or "owns gadgets that solve everything for him".

he was a force of nature.

The thing about Batman, to me, is that why do people like him so much? What makes him so appealing rather than Superman?

Well, I think the truth is rather sad and unfortunate. People, I think, like Batman on a subconscious level because he operates almost exactly like a villain would. In fact, if he WERE a villain, he'd probably operate much in the same way he does now, but would, you know, kill instead. He'd still have a secret lair, he'd still have sidekicks (henchmen), and he'd have it all be secret as he hides behind the mask of poor orphaned Bruce Wayne, Prince of Gotham. Hell, if we consider his ability to raise an army from The Dark Knight Returns (where he creates the Sons of Batman from the Mutants), then he wouldn't even NEED to do everything on his own...but he would. He'd raise hell. In fact, he'd probably be a better villain than hero, because he'd be actively trying to dismantle the system rather than preserve it as well as others in danger. Think about it: Batman exploring Gotham City Police Department one night. Who's gonna stop him? Commissioner Gordon? He could tear Gotham apart, and it's rather terrifying.

And when you think about how much he could easily fuck up the city he protects, you start to see why he's a formidable foe in general. He is DANGEROUS. He's unpredictable if he has no restrictions other than his training. He could get away with just about anything. He has the skills, he has the money, and he has the mind, body, training, skills, education...it's all right at his fucking fingertips.

But who'd stop him? Who'd let him get away with this?

Well, one person: Alfred. The only fucking problem is that GOD DAMN ALFRED is too fucking based to let that shit happen. He'd turn Bruce in. He'd do the right thing. But...if Batman had an EVIL Alfred? You best run the fuck away. But really, all he'd need is a loyal companion like Alfred, but evil. Someone like Mercy for Lex Luthor.

In conclusion, no evil Alfred = no evil Bats

>he hasn't read World's Finest: Superman vs. Batman
Where do you think the panel of Batman slapping Robin is from?

Plus, all canon portrayals of Batman are negative now. They hate the guy and think that "flaws" make someone a good character. Muh mental disorders muh can't control benis :DDDD

I hate it.

We need more Justice Lords Batman.

>The problem with democracy is, it doesn't keep you very safe.

It has other virtues though, you seem to have forgotten them.

>I didn't forget, I just chose peace and security instead.

YOU GRABBED POWER!

>And with that power, no 8 year old boy will ever lose his parents, because of some punk with a gun.

I love that our Batman gave up because of that line.

He's probably talking about Morrison's JLA run, which is where that take on Batman started. He just carried it over to the solo titles when he got there.

Even there he still was the first Justice Lord to turn against the others though.

Lol Ba Man stopped being an underdog a long time ago

There was a bit in King's run where he pulled out Matches Malone to get some info on Gotham & Gotham Girl.
Ironically, adaptations like the Arkham games & The Telltale Series probably feature more detective work.

Say what you will about Hush, but it was rather refreshing to see Batman receive a life-threatening injury from something as simple as a fall.

Yeah, I know. My point was that it was way more than just that, beacuse it lasted for years and several different titles, and instead of fixing shit up Morrison only made it worse and worse.

best version of an evil batman

>So is DC Comics afraid to portray Batman in a negative light or something?

He was portrayed in a very negative light in the story your image is related to.

I think Batman has become cancer to DC. Probably one of the reason why DC is losing the battle to Marvel on the big screen.

People like Batman because he has a catchy name, cool suit, cool gadgets, cool villains and it's easier to identify with and admire because of his lack of superpowers. It's as simple as that.

Batman is what's keeping DC alfoat, both in comics and in the movies.

>>>>>Comics thread, user

That's pretty much my point. He is the only thing because DC doesn't have faith in other character. Look at what they did to Superman.

>is that why do people like him so much?
That's one of the main reasons why. Batman's relation to villanous characters like Dracula or the Phantom of the Opera makes people inevitably more fascinated with him than a more clear cut hero like Superman. People are fascinated with dark characters and Batman capitalizes on that.

In fact, the character that Batman ripped his entire shtick from, The Shadow, was described by his creator as a "benign Dracula". He had most of the things Batman had (secret identities, money, secret lair, gadgets), as well as other things like an army of agents across the world, multiple secret identities which were a mystery even to the reader and psychic superpowers. And he didn't have Batman's No-Kill rule, he was dropping criminals like flies and brutally too (there's one pulp where he forces a man at gunpoint to drink poison, and a radio episode where he tricks a man into blowing his brains out). And even then, there were characters who were even more brutal, like The Spider.

Batman is essentially a toned down version of the pulp vigilantes that preceded him (which helped to make him more commercially appealing).

You mean helped him survive through the CCA years.

The Shadow knows! How different was movie Shadow from the other versions?

Ironically wasn't Batman on the verge of cancellation which is why they created Robin? It's only recently that Batman has usurped Superman as DC's premier hero.

Honestly I don't think that his origin really works with evil.
Also there was that time he became a vampire I guess?

Sure it does. Just, instead of turning on the criminal element that killed his parents, he turns on the police force that failed to protect them.

The police force that would needed a fortune teller to stop that event?
It was a mugging, not a hostage situation in a bank.

Look at what happened every time DC tried to push Superman to the front again?
It's not that DC doesn't have any faith on the character, it's that most people like Batman better.
Same happens with Marvel and Spider-Man. Not even the MCU managed to steal his place as the top character, and that has nothing to do with Marvel's lack of faith in other characters.

Well, he was rogue in BvS.

Have they actually? Doesn't fucking look like they actually tried.

Not much. The movie Shadow took traits from the pulps and the radio show and just combined them together.
He has more in common with the radio version, hence why Margo Lane, the Lamont Cranston identity, and the psychic abilities were so prominent, but there are elements from the pulps like Roy Tam, Shiwan Khan and the Tibet stuff. In fact most of the plot from the movie is lifted from The Golden Master pulp (which is the one that introduced Shiwan Khan into the Shadow mythos).
The sequel was supposedly going to incorporate The Voodoo Master but unfortunately the movie tanked so it never happened.

Yes, they've made movies, animated shows, TV shows and even tried putting people like Morrison and the best selling team of Scott Snyder and Jim Lee in front of his comics and none of it worked.

>Look at what happened every time DC tried to push Superman to the front again?
Which was? No doubt people prefer Batman now, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that Batman is the only one getting cartoons, video games, or animated movies these days.

>e best selling team of Scott Snyder and Jim Lee in front of his comics and none of it worked.
Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure Snyder's Superman was in the Top Ten. Also his Doomsday animated movie is still the most profitable animated movie I think. Really though they should give him a cartoon series. They won't give anyone besides Batman a cartoon series these days.

Yes, but when they left, Superman still sold like shit because people don't care about Superman. When Snyder left Batman, Batman still topped the lists because people care about the character.
It's as simple as that.

>When Snyder left Batman, Batman still topped the lists because people care about the character.
You mean right before the relaunch?
>It's as simple as that.
Under King the book fell under 100k. Before the New 52 reboot Batman sold 40k and GL was at the top of the list. Look where those two are now. You need to get your head checked, do you think the Flash's newfound popularity came out of fucking nowhere?

Sure, man. It's all a conspiracy from DC because they only want Batman to work for whatever reason.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

I'm pretty mad it didn't get a sequel because it feels like "what if Nolan's Batman were good." Not to mention all the unmade video games! It would have been so cool! Not sure if a sequel would have been as good though.

The Shadow is not a good film, the pacing is jumpy, the action sparse, and none of the characters are really developed.

The Shadow movie is not terrible, it certainly deserved better, but it's not really a great movie either. And certainly not what the character needed for a revival.
I seriously wish it hadn't come out at the same week as Lion King and it was directed by Sam Raimi.
Honestly if you want a Shadow film that does justice to the character you should watch Darkman.

You gotta be kidding me. It was a 9/10 movie definitely. There were a few questionable decisions and definitely needed one or two more action sequences in the middle, but overall it was great. I loved that final fight and the ending scene in the asylum. There were some really good moments and the visuals were top-notch.

Why are you insisting in this shit? It's OK you hate batman but stop talking about him.

For. Fucks sake red rain exists already, you are an obsessed autist.

I feel that on some level a Shadow movie should be comparable to a mafia film.