Star vs the forces of character development

This show has done an amazing job of making character development very prevalent in S2. Ludo turned from a joke into someone you can almost respect and feel bad for.
Star had to deal with a bunch of problems she put herself into and she's slowly starting to meld into a mature person.

And Season 3, with it's leaked intro, probably promises to flesh out an entire group of characters. Which characters are you most looking forward to being developed further? Any thoughts on what direction they'll be developed in?

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=rc5G04nJecI
youtube.com/watch?v=LCUTWyMWS3g
youtube.com/watch?v=yXIhF8ezsQI
mega.nz/#!f4EyFbQD!_ZOHSfVII4__vd27z7r9cvCfnlTI6twKUHOL47tbjeA
amazon.com/Forces-Marcos-Guide-Mastering-Dimension/dp/1484774191
twitter.com/AnonBabble

Personally I can't wait to see what they do with Kelly. I like her design and she seems like an easy character to develop, what with her being more or less a blank slate at the moment.
Does anyone actually know what she is?

...

Jackie's absolutely the top priority on my list. I'd also like to see more of Tom, Yvgeny, King and Queen Butterfly, and Mina Loveberry

Season Two did a great job with side characters in general

Janna, Jackie, and Tom all got pretty fleshed out compared to the first season

Some people argue Jackie needs more, but I think they are confusing Jackie being uninteresting with Jackie being underdeveloped

Kelly is the one that really stands out as undeveloped in the group seen at the end of the new intro

I think Tom is an interesting one as well, mainly cause we haven't seen him interact much with anyone other than Marco in a while so seeing him with new friends and how his relationship with Star has changed will be interesting

I like how Tom didn't go down the generic rogue gallery villain and actually became a sort of ally that Star and Marco can turn to.

I think its a bit of both in Jackies case. We really only see her through Marcos eyes, so the perception of her character is at the moment based off of Marcos perception of her.

I like that he has lots of issues that go beyond his crush on Star and the writers manage to mine that for both comedy and drama

>Jackie is top priority
Why? It isn't really 100% crucial to the story that she gets developed. Is it just because you don't want to see her become another Wendy Corduroy?

Because she's great and I'm just now able to have sympathy for her

Well in my eyes if a character is as perfect as Jackie is then they're just underdeveloped. I don't know, if all she is is "Mrs. Perfect for Marco" then she's actually legitimately the least interesting character of the current bunch. Excluding Pony head. Dear God I still hope Ponyhead goes away. Token best friend death so the Main Character undergoes a crisis and is forced to go all out?

Tom is the character you could argue that has made the most development with least screen time, in a ratio of sorts. He's shown that he's willing to change if need be and is the one character that is actively trying to change.
Tom is a good boy. Doing the things that he's doing for the wrong reasons. But hopefully he'll learn as he continues doing those things.

Well regardless of how much screentime she ultimately gets she has to become more than ms perfect for Marco if a breakup is going to happen. Especially if it's of Jackie's own volition due to feeling like she was lied to.

>excluding pony head
Also Kelly at the moment, though that will likely change

Buff Frog is based a/f. Wonder how much he'll help in S3. He's already helped Star and Marco out before, I'm sure we'll have at least one more episode with him somehow heavily involved.

There is this whole underlying "Monsters vs Mewnians" story going on, let's not forget.
And I wonder if the crew is going for a sort of good and bad way to attempt and reform the current power.
With Mewnians currently at power and the Monsters majorly under the gun. Maybe, Toffee fighting head on with the higher ups through use of stealing and power alone is just showing us that this isn't how you come to an agreement with anyone and you're very likely to get burned.
But Buff Frog and Ludo being the one's that are making/might make allies with the same people that keep them under their boot. Showing them that Monsters aren't nearly as bad as history has told them. And this kind of an approach actually might succeed in tipping the balance of Mewnians vs Monsters.
I have this hunch that this is where the show is going in terms of the Mewnian vs Monster dynamic.

>if a breakup is going to happen
Here's the thing though and I'm about to pop a really ugly zit.
What if it's Star who has to learn to deal with not getting her way again?
I mean, Star is kind of what the show is about.
The only thing that goes against this in my mind is that if the show is going to pair her up with anyone, it's going to be Marco. There isn't another character that would fit Star.

Part of me wishes that happens, and not due to the whole overused cliche argument.

also Tom accidentally cursed them to be together forever

I could see that being a temporary state of affairs though, like Star has to get over the fact Marco picked Jackie over her before they do an arc where Marco and Jackie break up

I just like Janna.
You can keep the rest Sup Forums

If no one is claiming Jackie I'll gladly take her

Hekapoo will always be mine.
have fun with your shovel chin

your alright user

youtube.com/watch?v=rc5G04nJecI

Guess I'll be the fag and be the one to take Star then. While I can.

It'd be better than doing that with Oskar, which was thankfully aborted by the end of Starcrushed

You can have prime Star but the lizard is mine

Part of me hopes for it too. But at the same time, deargodpleaseno

>temporary state of affairs
Well this might be a point.
>Implying that S3 is going to heavy on character development
>Star of S2 Star learns to let go of her feelings in order to deal with the imminent threat that is Toffee
>By mid S3 Jackie turns out to be "Mrs.NotSoPerfectForMarco"
>By the end of S3 Jackie doesn't want anything to do with Marco or visa versa and now both are open
This is kind of the absolute best case scenario.

Also I feel like where it might go with Jackie's development is that the whole traveling through dimensions thing becomes way too overwhelming for her, she can't deal with it and asks Marco to either choose to go on his adventures or her.
Maybe then and there Marco realizes that the whole dimensional adventure thing is just part of who he is and if Jackie can't accept it then it might not work out.

It also might be the reason she's not in the new leaked opening. What if by the time the group face off against Toffee/Ludo, Jackie's realized this whole shindig isn't for her and noped out?

>Star had to deal with a bunch of problems she put herself into and she's slowly starting to meld into a mature person.

That's the best part honestly. The way she treated the bard at the start of the princess song episode was fucking hilarious. I didn't expect that level of sardonic nature from her, and it was delightful. It's a nice break from her being bubble all the time, I just hope they don't make her omg so serious because that would suck.

>Which characters are you most looking forward to being developed further?

Surprisingly, Glossarick is top on my list. I want to see why he's such an unloyal dick, and where he went after leaving Ludo. Second choice is a tie between Heckapoo and Marco.

Is anybody else really fucking annoyed at how the show has glossed over the fact that Marco spent 16 years fighting and traveling through another dimension? Even if they didn't change his character at all, you'd think there would have been half a second of consideration beyond "what happened to my hot bod?" and Star poking his belly. Considering that the show has been pretty good with conveying consequences, like when Ludo got tossed in a shit dimension by Star and came back a harder man, you'd think there'd be something done with Marco. My only thought is that next season will show Marco's years of experience when he uses his earned interdimensional scissors to go to Star and figure out what the fuck is happening. If they don't do that then I'm going to be fucking pissed over such a big plot hole in a show that's been pretty good about those.

She might be for at least a little while. I imagine having to deal with leaving Marco behind and an imminent threat like Toffee will leave her pretty devastated.
But come Marco all that will most likely be turned around. The only question is, how soon does Marco jump in? First episode? First few episodes? Mid season?

Glossarick isn't loyal cause he is a literal fucking god

he seems to be both all knowing and all powerful or close enough to make no difference and thus he just doesn't give a crap

I just don't know why it would be stressful for her if it wouldn't be for someone like Janna. Jackie has been shown to be a thrillseeker and not just skating. She referred to battling Ludo and saving her friends from a portal to nowhere as the "funnest dance she's ever been to"

Yeah, I figure as much, I just hope the show keeps a balance between drama and comedy. I don't want it to be a complete bummer.

I hope first episode. Like I said in my other comment, Marco has interdimensional scissors he earned and 16 years of bad ass experience. If they make an excuse for him to stay at home and not even check on Star the first episode or two, I'm going to be pretty pissed.

True, but he also said it was his job to train the next Queen of Mewnie. He's not much of a teacher if he fucks over his student just because he can. Or maybe he was lying about being a teacher too?

It's either this Or maybe this whole leaving Star deal is also temporary and all part of Star's training, you know, making sure she's tapped out all of her potential?

It's all just one big fuck you to Queen Moon for telling him to do his job better/quicker.
You wanted Glossaryk to speed up the training process! Well here you fucking go!

Kek, that is the exact kind of cunt move that I could see Glossarick pulling. I accept this headcanon until it is disproven.

Hmmm. You make a good point. Need to reconsider that theory.
But then I have no fucking idea how a breakup between Marco and Jackie is possible.
It's a shame if it isn't. I really like Star and hope she ends up as happy as she can be after all this.

Speaking of the whole 16 years with Hekapoo. Don't count those out completely yet. There's rumors that Marco gets into a sword fight. But like, he's never explicitly trained with with a blade if you count out those 16 years.
What if the moment Marco picks up a sword, all the muscle memory on how to actually use a blade come crashing right back. Giving a nice nod to that episode.

based on what he says later it seems like he is bound to the book itself more than anything else, the book just happens to or did at least, belong to the Butterfly royal line

although honestly this seems like a lie or an excuse given that he literally created all the member of the Magic High Commission, so I find it hard to believe there is actually magic powerful enough to bind him to anything if he really didn't want it

Now we just need that one pic of him with the full sword that's just a pair of oversized D-Scissors and we're set. We can even have an episode of him earning it from Hekapoo, complete with some jokes involving knight/chivalry cliches.

I mean he body reverted back, it would make no sense to retain muscle memory if his body reverted, if anything he should remember how to be a sword fighter from the experiences but be lacking the muscle memory he used to have

Reflexes get stuck harder than memories is my thinking. In the book, Marco references the whole ordeal with Hekapoo as a hazy dream.
So it's obvious he's lost his actual memories. But have the skills completely gone away?
Or maybe we just get a magical macguffin kind of thing and Hekapoo brings back all those memories. Which would again, make things hilariously awkward.
It just feels like a cop out that all those 16 years have just been forgotten, y'know?

>it would make no sense to retain muscle memory if his body reverted
it would make narrative sense if he retained some gained skills from the experience
leave the hoowa for the Newtonians to stress over

I personally can't wait for more river

Many of the past Queens we know of underwent some pretty rotten ordeals to realize their true potential with the exception of Skywynne who was intelligent and diligent enough to sucessfully pursue it herself. Star's different in that she's so dismotivated, selfish, dim, and spoiled that it takes her losing almost everything midway through Season 2 to make her actually give a damn about bettering herself.

>everyone has already taken the best ones
I'm surprisingly fine with this, I'll just snatch one of the crazy waifus the before someone thinks about it.
However, I can't decide.
Odd last number on my post means Mina, even last number Starfan13.

The only people who don't want to see Jackie development are literally salty Starcofags.

>In the book, Marco references the whole ordeal with Hekapoo as a hazy dream.

What book? Is that canon?

Urray!
>tfw you'll never have as Starfan13 gf to share your Star fantasies with.

I can understand indifference but yeah, they're the only ones actively against it
It's just not at the top of everyone's priority list

I don't think that spoiled describes Star quite right.

Jackie looks pretty developed to me.

The book is a pretty big deal and yeah its totally canon

also Glosserick is Hekapoo's father

Flying Princess Ponyhead isn't her real name, also one of her sisters is trans-horse

Janna's last name is Ordonia, which is apparently Filipino

and a bunch of other important facts about Mewni and the show

Ludo is just a good example of a tragic villain. Especially during season 2.

Starcofag #1 here and I WANT to see Jackie developed further. Like I said earlier to me right now she just kinda seems like "Mrs.PerfectForMarco".
I don't want a character to exist solely for that purpose. I don't want the only reason Star doesn't get to be with Marco because there's a token "Mrs.PerfectForMarco". That would be shit writing and would make me salty beyond belief.
If I'm never going to get Starco, it damn well better be for a good reason.

Book is canon. But I'm assuming canon stuff that's deemed very important will make its way onto the show eventually.

Good to see that if they are going to pander to tumblr and sjw they will do so with a totally unimportant character.

Marco's big chorizo

Leaked intro? Did I miss something?

Her first response to destroying a police car was to assure Marco that her dad would just bail her out by bribing the cops.

Right you are

Then how would you describe her? Spoiled seems quite right for me.
She's never been FORCED to deal with bigger problems and it's lead to her doing whatever she wants, being irresponsible with her magic and generally annoying as seen in S1.

Someone leaked the last 15 seconds of the intro.

There are also various summaries online from people who attended the event.

its short and in low quality, we also had decent describtions of it though from witnesses

youtube.com/watch?v=LCUTWyMWS3g

Jackie isn't in it at all

Sweet chorizo or savory chorizo?

those number mean you got best girl

Well, she comes from a society where Royalty can do that and will do that in order to keep appearance also most probably they don't it as bribe but a form of compensation for the victim in order to repair the destruction and pay the inconveniences. Not only that, we have seen that Moon and River don't spoil on her, we have seen that Moon is at least very strict on her.

Fug that looks great. Thanks y'all. RIP my hopes for Jackie I guess.

SHOT THROUGH THE HEART

AND JACKIE'S TO BLAME

STAR BUTTERFLY HAS NO GAME

River is a based dad. Probably the best you could have. All serious and business when around Mrs.Bossy Queen Moon but soft, loving and caring when he's alone with Star. Or maybe that makes him the worst dad?

Oh dear god if we get to see him actually do GLORIOUS COMBAT in S3 that would be boss a/f.

Really hits home, that. It took me losing almost everything to finally get me moving.

Star will probably get the most interesting development but at the same time the whole angle of her maturing etc. is kind of expected. I feel like Marco didn't actually get a ton of development in 2 despite things in his life changing, so 3 might be pretty interesting if they do more with that.

Ludo, the MHC, and Glossaryck are pretty obvious, though I can't even predict how they'll use them so much as what their role will be at all. They're all kind of in a weird state right now where you know they'll appear again but not how they'll be used. Also I guess since Toffee's existence is finally not being treated as a late-season plot twist maybe they'll actually do more with him this time; more speaking roles like in S1 and the inevitable backstory.

More Moon is also going to happen for sure but I don't it want to become The Moon Show, ex. the Moon/Toffee backstory dominating everything. Or more like if that happens it would seem almost like a failure on the writing team's part to make the overarching plot still sort of irrelevant to Star 3 seasons in.

Also Eclipsa more than almost anyone here since we still haven't seen her in person. I doubt she's evil, and I expect her to take the place of a mentor for Star in the absence of Glossaryck, rather than Moon. Would be honestly surprised if she's actually a villain.

Holy shit, those are some serious truth bombs you're dropping. How the fuck does the Glossarick and heckapoo deal even work? It's a shame that Marco doesn't even remember his time in the other dimension.

What's the book called?

It could be a new beginning for her as an unexpected series villain

Star and Marco's Guide to Mastering Every Dimension. It's written by a guy on the show who's a boarder and on the writing team (Dominic Bisignano)

The official Deep Trouble Star comics are also canon

I never would have thought Ludo would turn out to be such a great character. He was a joke. And now he's the most tragic and probably the most fortified character in the show. He's WILLING. He's somewhat ABLE. He wants to BE somebody. But outside influences keep him from attaining his goals. It even rings a bell back to the whole Monsters Vs Mewnians dynamic as I've stated here This show has some grade A+ villains.

I wouldn't say star is spoiled per say but more she does not focus or concentrate and sometimes does not take things seriously.

Star is a good person but you forget she is still young, being 14 is when you really start discovering yourself and who you are, she has alot of weight on her shoulders since she is going to be queen so she constantly wants to have fun and he with her friends.

She has times where she seems spoiled because she gets her way with magic, but that's why there were episodes focusing on her overcoming stuff without relying solely on magic.

I still am impressed how well the character development is for this show after only 2 seasons. They really BTFO Gravity Falls character development and took a more realistic approach with the relationships and life lessons.

>In the book, Marco references the whole ordeal with Hekapoo as a hazy dream.

This was never in the book. The only thing we really got about Hekapoo was some narration from Glossaryck about her being a creation of himself. We also got some info on the Dimensional Scissors, but none of it about Hekapoo.

You're thinking of the second livechat with Marco:
youtube.com/watch?v=yXIhF8ezsQI

Transcript of the relevant question below:

[25:04] Q: "How was it to spend 16 years alone, and then come back to Earth as a kid?"
>"This is a great question. Yeah, a lot of people want to know... if... I've been deeply, deeply affected."
>"And well... I can tell you that, it's kind of a weird feeling. I feel... I remember everything that happened over those 16 years... definitely... can... remember it all."
>"But it... since I got back to Earth it's all becoming... a little more and more hazy. Like... almost like... a memory you had when you were a kid or something. You can remember it but... it's getting harder and harder to put details together."
>"Although I do remember Nachos, my dragon cycle."
>"I remember my sweet sword. I remember my abs."
>"And of course... the lovely Hekapoo." (she portal smacks him again)
>"You know what? Maybe I'll go visit her soon."

So he can "remember it all", but it's "getting harder and harder to put details together". He likens the experience to thinking back on "memories you had when you were a kid or something". But he can definitely remember Nachos, swords, abs, and Hekapoo.

Personally, it just feels like a cop-out answer so he can avoid answering questions about things that have never been set in stone by Nefcy/storyboarders. That's why he just pivots to listing things that we saw happen in the episode, it's just him falling back to obviously canon details. But that's just my own interpretation.

I feel like we had a mega link or a imgur of it at some point but I have no clue anymore

Here's the PDF version
mega.nz/#!f4EyFbQD!_ZOHSfVII4__vd27z7r9cvCfnlTI6twKUHOL47tbjeA

I don't know why the text aliasing is so shit in the PDF.

At first I thought whoever created the PDF used a shitty program during a conversion (e.g. when removing DRM). But if you look at the Amazon sneak peak for the book
amazon.com/Forces-Marcos-Guide-Mastering-Dimension/dp/1484774191

You can see the shitty text aliasing there too, even with the lossy compression of the reader. It's either Amazon's or the publisher's fault.

Anyone has that "Who are you? I'm you but with charm and likeability" star vs mabel pic

I can't wait to see the developement of this crush thing between Marco and Star, I mean. Yeah, I ship them. But the show crew managed to make it look weird and odd, they managed to make a cliche best friend falls in love with best friend something odd, something that even may look wrong, like incest. I don't know how to explain myself.

So I hope that at first we get this uncomfortable moments to get passed through it, how does this has a relevance with Jackie and all that stuff. Star seems to be growing and getting more complexity as a character, even more than Marco, she's getting ready to be a queen and it's exactly that character developement I want to see.

Tom is someone who I want to see with a bigger character developement, in the book he has quite an interesting look, that's something that in part I want to see, maybe even getting passed through Star and finding someone else who matches his likes and that stuff, maybe Janna? Who knows.

Oskar is also other character that has now an interesting last appearance, I jus hope that he'll follow the crew to Mewni, and that the scene of Starcrushed wasn't only a "revelation moment" but a character developement for Oskar promising Star that he'll be with her in the summer.

This thread is gold.

And just a reminder that the hardcover book is real damn cheap too if you want to drop some money supporting the show

Quads don't lie.

Oh well I'm mixing up my sources then. Glad there's someone to correct me.
That is a valid interpretation. But just because it wasn't set in stone then doesn't mean they can't do something fun with it later. "It's there, it's cannon so let's reference it!"
Mistakes in writing can be turned around and this show has already done that.

>Google ordonia
>third result is a Manna tumblr blog
Heh

I know what I'm buying tomorrow, hell yeah. Thanks mane.

I had no idea these interview things existed. Are they worth checking out? Are the Canon as well?

Cool, thanks man. I can read this while waiting for the book to ship.

...

>Oskar is also other character that has now an interesting last appearance, I jus hope that he'll follow the crew to Mewni, and that the scene of Starcrushed wasn't only a "revelation moment" but a character developement for Oskar promising Star that he'll be with her in the summer.

Bleh, I hope not. Oskar is a shit character and he's already served his one dimensional use.

savory

I understand both are underdeveloped, but the fact that some people see Oskar and Jackie as exact parallels sorta pisses me off

>Oskar is also other character that has now an interesting last appearance, I jus hope that he'll follow the crew to Mewni, and that the scene of Starcrushed wasn't only a "revelation moment" but a character developement for Oskar promising Star that he'll be with her in the summer.

His only purpose in that scene was to confirm that Marco is Mars thus supporting the fact Star is Venus.

The livechats are sort of canon and sort of not.

Realistically they wouldn't be really happening in the show and they can't really answer relevant questions much at all because of spoilers. But occasionally like the Marco Running with Scissors answer they say something that's intended to be taken as truth, at least for now.

It's mostly just Adam and Daron messing with the fans

So we learned Janna's spirit animal is the Ouroboros from the new book, and from my earlier theory I suspected Janna to be the Jesus type figure in the lore.

>The snake eating its own tail simply represents the recreation of life through death by the Universe. It is interpreted as some kind of a rebirth of the dead reaching an immortality of sorts.

Maybe Janna can die, and resurrect? Could be her power in Season 3, and also she seems to like the dead as seen in the canon book. Also pic related is maybe a sign?

>Alchemists of the old ages were using the infinity symbol as a purifying glyph and they referred to it as “the name of the Great World Serpent surrounding the Earth”. It also represented the element of mercury (which is known as an element that can run through any kind of matter).

>(which is known as an element that can run through any kind of matter).

Remember how she seems to be everywhere, and know all of Marco's secrets secrets with ease? Maybe? Anyways don't have much now, but just what I got.

The book of spells is also has the Infinity symbol on the front, and Janna stole the book when Glossaryk first appeared.

I think Oskar was really only there to show how strong Star's feelings are for Marco. She had a crush on Oskar because he's cute and artistic, but she's in love with Marco and no amount of cute hipster doofus will change her mind at this point. I also don't want him in it more because he'd take time away from way more deserving character.

I agree that Jackie is not the same though. She's also pretty one dimensional, but her dynamic with Marco is entirely different than Oskar's with Star.

Also you might as well just look for transcripts/relevant information from them because they're kind of long and it'd get old watching them all in a row.

The weirdness of Daron trying to talk continuously in the StarFan13 voice and eventually just going all over the place with it is kind of entertaining though. You can almost pinpoint the exact moment she stops giving a fuck about trying to sound like the show.

Janna Banana in apyjama is coming down the stairs,
Janna Banana in a pyjama is coming down with pears,
Janna Banana in a pyjama is chasing marco bears,
'cos on Tuesdays they all try to catch them unawares!

Off topic:
>This thread is gold.
>Mfw I made this thread
>Mfw I've been curating and replying to as many posts as I could, leaving open questions in my wake
>Mfw it's paid off in dividends
Actually revealing this runs the risk of derailing everything but I don't care. I've already more than enjoyed myself a good discussion thread for once.

I keep saying that if you want top quality threads you have to make them yourself.
Shitposting and shipwars are all fine and good. But if you complain about the threads being cancer you're just being lazy and not trying to make something better.
Now it won't work every time of course. The nature of Sup Forums is such that everything is in constant flux. Sometimes a good thread will bite, sometimes it won't.
But if you never make one, it never will bite.

Back on topic: Also yeah right now Star has way more development than Marco. But she is kind of the main character. It's surprising how easy it became to forget that. Writing one character well is doable enough but writing two characters so well that neither seems more important than the other is a skill that's been intimidating me since I've ever started writing.

These fucking teases. If I give then 100 bucks do you think they'll give a live chat happy ending?

I was planning on just listening to them while working out, but thanks for the tips on the transcripts.

2/3 done

Also, I forgot some of the requests from weeks ago and I can't access the archives for some reason. Do the people who requested them still remember? All I remember is the request about starfleet reaching mewni/ captain kirk having tea with moon

Also, I'll probably be doing a bunch of requests before working on the 3/3 part of this tedious as fuck comic strip request

I hope that jack off session was enjoyable. I'll admit that you've earned it, this is one of the best star threads I've seen in a while.

>Also yeah right now Star has way more development than Marco. But she is kind of the main character. It's surprising how easy it became to forget that. Writing one character well is doable enough but writing two characters so well that neither seems more important than the other is a skill that's been intimidating me since I've ever started writing.

I think the secret to that is that you can't be worried about giving both main character equal time in the short term, but equal time and development over the long term. You can have an episode with almost just Star, as long as it's balanced by a Marco focused one. I think a lot of shoes get too focused on having both characters on screen equitably each episode or even several episodes, and that's where it fucks up.

What are you writing?

Listening to them might work too.

Actually the one after Starcrushed where Marco's obviously depressed that Star's just left and is constantly annoyed at fan questions/on the verge of tears is pretty funny. It's kind of "canon" for that livechat that right after Star left Earth they still forced Marco to go through with this lighthearted fan conversation thing, and he clearly resents it.

Congratulation, many congratulation to you

What the fuck is supposed to be happening here?

Also I'd highly recommend not using grid paper in the future. Things look way too messy and hard to see with the grids behind the already sketchy lines.