Last thread >>92534481

Last thread Luke.
Did.
Not.
Attack.
Ben.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=Kj3opk1QFTM
twitter.com/AnonBabble

>no.. it sound like shitty writing, and your defending it.
Removing a character's flaws and humanity is shitty writing.

why didnt luke destroy the first order with his laser sword? I was waiting for that part in the movie but it never happened

Fucking brainlets. It was much better when he teleported across the universe and said "heh, see ya kid". True kino

>reinserting a character's flaws after overcoming them is shitty writing.
ftfy

Yes he did. Even if he didn't he was going to. It's part of Luke's arc for the film and the entire reason he feels he had failed.

There's really two things going on here.

>1. Luke drawing his lightsaber on his nephew for badthink.
>2. Luke hiding for 20 years, claiming the Jedi must end.


In my personal opinion, Luke considering slicing up Ben for naughty thoughts is within the realm of Luke's character, although the way it was told in the story was pretty lame. (Flashbacks are stupid for such a mega plot point). On the other hand, Luke hiding in a corner like a little bitch for 20 years, that's way out of character.

>Tomorrow I'll give you 3 lessons. On why the Jedi must end.
>Ohh, this'll be good.
>Literally no reasons given. Luke just sucks.

BEN WUZ A SLEEPING BOY!

HE DINDU NUFFIN!

If you woke up with me standing over you with a knife poised to strike and then I shrugged and said "sorry, bro, moment of weakness. We cool?" Then I think we can agree it isn't appropriate, whether or not it technically counts as an "attack".

I wasn't in the previous thread at all but I'm assuming this is a "le character assassination" debate. My two cents are that, personally, if Vader murdered children, exterminated a religion, killed Luke's mother, assisted in destroying a planet and was prepared to do it again, and Luke still thought he could be saved because there was the tiniest glimmer of good in him, and then SUCCEEDED in turning him to the point where Vader destroyed the Emperor and restored peace to the galaxy, then it's a little out-of-character for Luke to consider murdering his nephew, whom he had known since infancy, in his sleep, due to feeling the presence of the dark side.

>he did
>was going to
Two different things.

That's because the movie showed 2 different versions of the scene idiot. Luke's version and Kylo's version.

youtube.com/watch?v=Kj3opk1QFTM

Luke Skywalker at the end of Return of the Jedi

> full-fledged Jedi Knight
> mastery of force powers
> veteran of dozens of battles
> goes on what amounts to a suicide-mission to defeat the Empire once and ofr all
> saved the universe through the ultimate act of love and forgiveness after facing the greatest temptation he has ever known

Luke Skywalker after Return of the Jedi

> senses his nephew's corruption
> sneaks into his room to "confront him" while carrying a weapon
> is tempted to murder nephew in his sleep
> activates his lightsaber to deliver the killing blow
> um, takes it back or something
> lies to his sister and brother-in-law about the incident (neither of them seem aware why Kylo became corrupted, or if they are, they are not particularly troubled by it)
> flees to the far side of the galaxy to die alone
> forgets it all and decides to train Queen Mary Sue - gives her like two lessons even though she proves herself to be an unstable psychopath
> decides to die after astrial projecting across the galaxy because he was bored or something

One of them was true and one was a lie. The true one made no mention of him wanting to kill Ben. That's simply what you assumed, which is bizarre to me since you seem to want to assume Luke is a saint before this movie.

>implying that either version of the story is the true one

>The true one made no mention of him wanting to kill Ben.
Different user but yes, it did. He even speaks of his "moment of weakness". He walked into Ben's room, and ignited his lightsaber to murder him. He then decided that he couldn't do it, and felt a moment of shame. In that moment, before he deactivated his lightsaber and left the room, Ben woke up, saw him, made the assumption that he was about to attack and defended himself.

You're right - Luke would not have killed him. However, he DID want to do it a moment earlier, to the point where he drew and ignited his weapon.

How do you now that Luke's version is true??? Why isn't Kylo's true? You don't know. I don't want Luke to be a saint. i wanted him to be a villian. I'm happy everyone is so ass mad at the thought that he would kill Ben.

Contemplating murdering a sleeping child and acting on that impulse is totally out of step with Luke's character

The fall of the Jedi Temple and creation of Kylo Ren would have been a much more interesting story than bland rehashes of ANH and ESB. It should have been the first film in the sequel trilogy (with the lightsaber incident being the climax) rather than a 30 second flashback.

I mean if Luke was gonna kill him why not just use the force?

For me I don't care if Luke was gonna kill Ben it had been twenty years so maybe Luke began to go bad too

> activates his lightsaber to deliver the killing blow
> um, takes it back or something
bullshit like this makes it clear you guys just want to hate tlj. the image of an abused woman raising a knife, or a parent putting their hands around the neck of a child exhibiting a horrifying nascent evil, is extremely common in cinema. it's not this weird confusing thing Sup Forums thinks it is

he hid for 6 years at most and how did you miss the point of the lessons?

tlj was just a bad movie its only because its a star wars movie that we're mad

just got back from seeing it

I have no words for how disappointed I am

Both rely on Luke *and* the audience forgetting what happened in RotJ

...

Luke transcending the mortal coil to become a symbol of hope and resistance across the galaxy is much more interesting than "dude why didn't he just kill the whole first order fleet with the force lmao"

He only pulled a deadly weapon on him with the intention of murdering him in his sleep.

...

Or he could just help his friends instead of hiding on his island leaving them to fend for themselves for a mistake he made.

You, Lyin Rian and the Puke-ass Film Story Group are all sociopaths if you don't understand the issue here.

i know that feel

that's not particularly interesting

>a bloo bloo bloo why isn't muh childhood hero Luke a flawless gary stu

I really wish this were one of the movies that got leaked before it made it to theaters. I would have never gone to see it in person

It's a common trope, but one that needs to be justified by a character's prior actions if it's going to be effective.

The child murder scene is chronologically the first Luke scene that occurs after Return of the Jedi - in which Luke completed his heroic arc and overcame temptation. To undo 3 films worth of growth in a 30 second flashback is bad writing and understandibly rubs people the wrong way.

TLJ is pure subversion for subversion's sake. It has overt political objectives (happily pointed out by critics that praise it) that are hostile to the series (heroism, a core theme of the original series, is antithetical to the universalist message of TLJ) and its (largely white and male) fanbase. That's what fans recognize and resent.

Not an argument.

Neither is Luke bitching on an island for two hours only to tell his nephew "nothing personal kid" before dying

Not what that means but at least you tried

Good, I'm glad we agree that it's not a bad story arc for Luke just because he didn't measure up to the infantile pedestal you put him on

No it isn't it's fucking stupid.

Even Luke's version had them clash lightsabers together.

Rian get off Sup Forums and learn to write. Subversion doesn't automatically make it good

>Neither is Luke bitching on an island for two hours only to tell his nephew "nothing personal kid" before dying
but it actually is. his arc is interesting and ties in well with the drastic streamlining that happens in the plot. he's apparently disillusioned with the jedi order, but actually it turns out he just lost faith in his own ability to rebuild it. he gains hope for the future, does what he can to help it happen and checks out to go to space valhalla. that is a much more interesting, simple and cinematic story than the lore porn you fucks wanted to see

The impression I got from that plot point was that every force sensitive person/Jedi is always tempted by the dark side and must carry the burden of that struggle between dark and light for the rest of their lives. Even Luke, who was so far in the light by the end of ROTJ, succumbed to fear when he saw those hints of Vader in Kylo and made a bad call in response to that fear. It seemed like part of the greater theme of the movie that is emphasizing the moral struggle that comes with force sensitive people, and grounding the "jedi" myth that the younger people in the star wars universe think; that they were always a force of good without any flaws or problems with moral issues. On that point I thought it was a good route to take, but I think with how much of a trainwreck the rest of the movie was, that point failed to land.

The story doesn't work with Luke's character or arc. We don't know why he became a disillusioned hermit except because he failed Ben. The catalyst of him wanting to strike Ben is regressive and doesn't make sense to his character in the first place. It's not a simple or good story because it does a disservice to the movies that came before it. It's a shame when asking for simple consistency is considered "lore porn".

>iconic character is beloved due to enduring dramatic and cathartic struggle culminating with a dangerous act of bravery, selflessness, faith and love, a hero to millions
>infantile pedastal hurr KILL THE PAST AND GROW UP NERDS, KEEP BUYING TICKETS WHILE YOU'RE AT IT
oh dear user

No, it's a bad story arc because it's out of character badly written trash in a movie full of badly written trash.

>t. disney shill

The important thing to remember is that there was no need for Luke to have an arc. His development was done by the end of Return. He should have been there to give advice to Rey and maybe get a nice sendoff. But this was time desperately needed to develop Rey's character and make the audience actually like her. But they wasted it trying to fix what wasn't broken.

+1
the exploration of the dark side as a snake in the grass ever present temptation to evil was a million times better than anything raised in the prequel trilogy

the OT just hinted at what the force means philosophically. it was mostly just space mana. the prequels overexplained it and failed to make it interesting on an emotional level. TLJ has salvaged the concept.

>Tomorrow I'll give you 3 lessons. On why the Jedi must end.
>only gives 2 lessons
BRAVO MOUSE

>Be the demoted, insubordinate, careless mutineer pilot named Poe
>have a stupid, half cocked plan with 2 idiots that undermines a Vice Admirals plans
>The plan fails, resulting in hundreds of rebel deaths
>The Vice Admiral has to sacrifice herself to fix the shitstorm you caused
>Leia doesn't have you hung as soon as you dry land
>Instead, you get a heartwarming reunion with your robot
>The Vice Admiral actually said "I like him" about you to Leia

What the fuck kind of garbage screenwriting is this?

>describe the film as a train wreck
>must be a disney shill!
really got me thinking

and yet you haven't given a single reason for why it's inconsistent with the OT.

i don't necessarily think it makes total sense as a continuation of his original arc and is remarkable for that reason, but i think it's an interesting arc that takes him in a new direction and rejects the idea that we know everything there is to know about him from the previous movies. you do have to do that if you want to make a good story out of an established character.

The movie is utter shit.

>Rose saves Fin from commiting suicide and saving the rebels
>"boo hoo we don't sacrifice our lives to save our friends"

Then what the fuck did Vice Admiral Holdo do 20min earlier?

>bullshit like this makes it clear you guys just want to hate tlj

This revelation may stun you to your very core, user, but people who pay good money to watch a Star Wars movie don't want to hate a Star Wars movie.

The reason this film is being mercilessly torn to shreds by an unprecedented proportion of the fanbase is very simple. It's profoundly shite on many levels.

>be terrible leader with purple hair
>destroy the resistance through utter incompetence
>die needlessly

Were you watching the movie? They need all the help they can get. Why kill Poe when he is 1/10th of the Resistance at this point?

Why didn't the dreadnught have a shield? Everything else has a shield, but why didn't it? I mean, maybe its too expensive to shield the whole thing, so why not just shield the vulnerable spot?

You should have seen this coming from TFA when Luke was hiding out. Why would someone with Luke's personality go into hiding?

He got half of the remaining rebels killed. He lead a mutiny that undermined Holdo's and Leia's plan to escape because of incompetence and insubordination. He should've been killed as soon as possible so he couldn't do more damage.

backwards reasoning user. just cause you guys hate it doesn't prove that it's bad. what i saw was the first interesting movie since the OT. i don't get you didn't see that - unless you're just dumb and have poorly calibrated expectations.

>and yet you haven't given a single reason for why it's inconsistent with the OT.
Luke finishes his training to become a Jedi by not striking Vader out of anger or fear. Before that he's against killing Vader even though he's responsible for so much death and destruction. TLJ Luke is willing to kill Ben because of visions he sees. That goes against his arc and what the Jedi were about.
>i don't necessarily think it makes total sense as a continuation of his original arc and is remarkable for that reason
That's poor writing.

Holdo and Leia's plan to escape was unbelievably retarded.

Holdo was a terrible leader? Did she devise a failed plan that revealed the escape plan to the first order, leading to the death of half the remaining rebel fighters, or did she just keep information away from a shitstain, demoted pilot?

Yes. She was a terrible leader. Leia too.

I actually don't hate the film. I just think it's extremely poor.

But regardless of what I (or anyone else here) thinks, it's clear that TLJ is by far the most disliked Star Wars movie to date.

So was the rest of the screenwriting.

The whole movie's plot is the bad guys and the good guys are in a turtle's race. A vice Admiral and a pilot have a disagreement on how to escape which causes tension and pointless side stories. In the end, kumbaya and no progress is made for anyone.

Vader is the father Luke has always looked for his whole. His nephew is his own personal failure.

cool

Not that user but she's the reason like 70% of the rebels die and her brilliant plan was just hopping in escape pods. For some reason that couldn't be shared with the crew.

Who the fuck was snoke? Why was I supposed to think he's menacing or a threat?

ben isn't vader, and old luke isn't young luke. any temptation luke might have had to kill vader was competing with a desire to see his father redeemed. as a master, he came to believe that ben was irredeemable, and the weight of responsibility as the restorer of the jedi made him flirt with the idea of dipping into the dark side, just this once, for the greater good....

the idea that once his jedi training was 'completed' he would no longer be morally vulnerable is pretty stupid. and he didn't give in to the dark side despite being tested which is completely consistent with the vader example.

>But regardless of what I (or anyone else here) thinks, it's clear that TLJ is by far the most disliked Star Wars movie to date.
lol no.

Get this: Her plan would've worked if Poe didn't make that shitty plan to infiltrate Snoke's Ship.

and why the fuck do they portrait hux like a little bitch? isnt he supposed to be threatening? yet when hes on-screen he has this whiny wet eyes

>If Poe was successful, her plan would've worked.
>If Poe never sent Fin and Rose on the mission to las vegas, her plan would've worked.
>Since Poe's plan failed, her plan failed

How is it 7% her fault?

BTW she's a vice admiral, she doesn;t have to tell you anything. Unless the rebels are so undisciplined that they were destined to fail in the first place without some movie magic in the next film.

>isnt he supposed to be threatening?
no

he's a camp pansy bad guy, like the french in henry iv

Hux was cool in the TFA, but now he's just some kiss ass bitch that Snoke toys with. SAD

Ben isn't Vader, he's just some kid who literally dindu nuffin. Luke has grappled with the dark side before and knows people can change yet he's willing to just say fuck it now. Not only is he willing to say fuck it but he's willing to give up on a kid who hasn't acted out yet.
>the idea that once his jedi training was 'completed' he would no longer be morally vulnerable is pretty stupid.
Vulnerable, sure. About to kill your nephew, no.
>and he didn't give in to the dark side despite being tested which is completely consistent with the vader example.
"The Jedi use the force for knowledge and defense, never attack" not to mention his first master Obi-Wan went the pacifist route when dealing with Vader. Luke didn't draw on Vader that was the test.

He really wasn't in the force awakens. This movie really turned his character into an opportunistic brown nosing weasel, which isn't a logical character trait for someone in his position.

>not striking Vader out of anger or fear

Dude, his whole arc is that he overpowers and beats Vader with brutality and hints of dark side.
Then he looks at his father's stump, he looks at his robot hand and THIS is when he cools down and stays on the light side.

>The new Republic had a strict no Jedi policy so Luke was exiled there after Ben blew up the school.
I didn't even have to kill a nephew to do it.

I actually liked the this representation of Luke.
I liked the attempt to put Star Wars on a new path, and every scene involving Kylo Ren is pure kino.

But the movie was fucking trash. We have to accept it. Stop defending it.

>the FO aren't looking for escape pods on a ship that's on its last leg
They destroyed all of the ships following the large one and that was the last one left. Did they just think that everyone would stay on board?
>BTW she's a vice admiral, she doesn;t have to tell you anything.
That's true but when the entire crew's life is on the line communication is necessary. The rebels go off script often which makes them different from the militaristic Empire. Why should we accept Holdo's need for absolute obedience now?

HEY BEN

>Force mind raping him while he sleeps isn't an assault
kek

Something I don't get. Why do people assume Luke just goes and makes a conscious decision, even for one second?
"okay, yeah, I guess I'll just kill him, that child's trouble. Well, on second thought, no, this is bad."

I mean, he just spent time mind reading a guy who "snoke had already turned" (in his own words). Wouldn't it make sense that, in contact with the dark side, any one would have killed Kylo in Luke's place, and that's because he is so great at resisting the dark side, he managed not to?

Why did Luke use a loud as fuck lightsaber to try to murder his nephew? Why not just a knife?

Igniting the lightsaber is what fucking woke Ben up. Be quiet and use a knife you fucking retard

For a majority of the fight Luke is unwilling to fight Vader. He doesn't lash out until he threatens to go after Leia. He stops when the Emperor mocks him and he realizes his mistake.

Or put the light saber to his head and then turn it on

reminder this is the first time Star Wars has ever done flashbacks. They have done dreams and visions but never cut back in time and TLJ showed the same flashback 3 fucking times.

So, exactly what I said. Threat to his sister made him react and become angry.
He stops when he looks at his father robot stump and realizes that he's going to become like him if he doesn't stop.
His whole arc is when he throws his saber away. In fact, if he hadn't, he would've been fried by the emperor.

jedis can only murder other jedis with a lightsaber, its part of the jedi code

Yeah realizing violence isn't the answer. Meaning that it's out of character for him to try and kill Ben in his sleep

>be snoke
>be so strong in the force you can choke people and fling them around the room from across the galaxy
>die to a lightsaber that doesn't even touch your head

I don't know why people think he's actually dead. I bet he was force projecting just like Luke was. He looked younger in TLJ than he did in TFA, just like Luke did when he projected himself. He was aware that Kylo was turning the lightsaber on him, because he literally talked about it (Kylo's lightsaber was ALWAYS pointed at Rey, no need to turn it). The body stops moving until Hux observes it, then the legs fall over.

I wouldn't be surprised if Snoke is either a sith force ghost(since TLJ established that force ghosts like Yoda have godlike powers) or someone still living and hasn't actually shown his true self to anyone.

It resonates with the Vader scene on a level you're too stupid to understand. Luke has a vision of the future which temps him to commit an evil act (just like Anakin), he attempts to prevent a threat to something he cares about (just like his fight with Vader), he rethinks his actions and doesn't follow through with the evil deed (just like his fight with Vader).

The scene is thematically consistent with Star Wars, and you can't really argue that it's inconsistent with the character.

It really sounds like you don't like it, because it's no the same as the old EU Luke you read about as a kid.

It does none of those things and is absolutely inconsistent with Luke's character.

>because I said so

Nice argument.

So he regresses as a character because Rian is a hack

...