Are "deep lore" shows cancerous?

Are "deep lore" shows cancerous?

Only when that Lore is boring trite shit, rarely ever comes up, and the characters themselves are annoying and boring.

So Deep Lore Shows like Steven Universe are shit, yes.

>rarely ever comes up
So you don't watch the show, got it

Yeah, pretty much. They get a pass for having sub-standard animation and writing by having some pseudo-arg or generic lore shit for fags to wank over and when they finally end faggots say "why was the ending so shit???" People who don't care about lore could see the writing on the wall from day 1 but lore wankers have it pass right over their head because they are speculating about incrediblely obvious lore or what waifu they wanna fug. I can GUARANTEE stuff like SU and Star Vs. will have shit endings just like Gravity Falls.

When did using the term "lore" for this even come into fashion? I just call it worldbuilding.

Not him but all SU does is repeat the same plot points over and over.
>S1 finale
>Greg tells Steven there was a war and it's presented as some big revelation even though we knew about it 15 episodes in
>Steven has the same character arc about his mom repeat multiple times
>The current arc is a rehash again and we are 100+ episodes in and only now is the MC meeting the main villains

Why do you think SU has good writing?

Because The Lore is really relevant to all those episode where Steven Fucks around with the townies, right?

Because they're pretty much two separate things. Lore is a part of worldbuilding but worldbuilding doesn't need lore.

leepest dore is only bad when there's no direction to it. shows with an intended story to tell (complete with ending) don't tend to cause that much of a problem. SUs problem is that it's completely aimless and insists on having the lore shit even though it's more of an episodical show

Considering you're posting a picture about a show that is nothing but shitty DEEP LORE.

Then yes, yes they are.

Are there that many shows going on with deep lore, or is it just burnout from seeing SU discussed a lot?

...

this
a good example is the first alien vs nu-alien
Alien had excellent world building but very little lore
nu-Alien is so clustered with loreshit that the world building suffers

No.

Steven Universe is probably the definition of a "carrot on the stick" type show.

>Episode 12
>Hey Steven you can fuse with gems too! :^)
>He doesn't do it until episode ONE HUNDRED FUCKING ONE

Avatar isn't deep lore though. We know nearly everything about the world's history halfway through season 1

Could you give a reasonable definition of what lore means then in the context of a story?

Lore is the history of events in the world
Worldbuilding is showing how the world works

Is that an exageration?
This is an honest question

The problem with shows with substantial world-building is that it is inevitably ruined by
1. Showing too much, and it not being good enough.
2. Not showing enough, and moments feeling underplayed.
3. General in inconsistencies.

Still better than barely knowing shit lore mentioned in a random one-liner only to be forgotten and finally addressed 100+ episodes later.

I kinda agree, but not for those reasons.

I like an unwritten lore, where the wise man doesn't explain how the Dark King rose to power in the Dragon War or whatever the fuck. I like being dropped into a setting where there's a backstory, but it's never directly explained. When the the Gems to explain the war for Earth, or Ford to explain Bill's whole deal, or Adventure Time explains.. Well, anything, I get bored; I already know, you already know, it's too late in the show to do worldbuilding and it's kind of unnecessary.

I liked SU when the Gem War was unexplained, when people had theories about what made monster Gems and regular Gems different.

As soon as Amethyst popped up and blurted out "Those monsters we fight used to be just like us!!" in Ocean Gem, all that went to shit.

It was actually episode 102

In my mind worldbuilding is the creation of the whole imaginary world, with its history being a part of that. "showing how the world works" seems too limited in scope for the term.

"Lore" the way Sup Forums talks about it is fucking stupid. Shows should be judged based on their story, not indefinite blueballing bullshit that fags pretend is more meaningful than it really is.

Watching the world and lore grow is really satisfying and the speculation part is great, discussing theories with other people and either agreeing with them or calling them retards is fun
Problem is some times the fan theories end up being better than what actually happens so you're left with a "what could've been" feeling, and most times these kind of shows also set the stakes too high for their own good so in the end they don't actually deliver and/or end up leaving enough lose ends to justify another season which is never gonna happen

Yes

We fucking understood the diamonds were the big bads a century ago and they keep building up this inevitable confrontation with excruciatingly specific detail.

The show should've been about a boy with alien powers going on episodic adventures and fighting a big bad at the end of each season. Instead we're a hundred episodes in and we have only learned about a season's worth of information.

>After only 8+ anime seasons worth of episodes, we're just started having an climatic antagonist, and a non-dropped plot point.

Yes that's what it is but you don't need lore to construct it

I blame that fucking Mario Kart 64 thread

I suppose, but it would be a pretty flat world if there wasn't any history to it. It's a pretty fundamental part of worldbuilding.

It'd be like writing a story without characters.

Imagine a world where you aren't an aspie.

You live and grow as a normal human being, with different milestones in your life.

These milestones and the things you learn from them often impact the way you see the world around you.

That's what these shows are. Not a conspiracy to make you look stupid by getting you to like something, which seems to be the aspie white whale.

>I like an unwritten lore, where the wise man doesn't explain how the Dark King rose to power in the Dragon War or whatever the fuck. I like being dropped into a setting where there's a backstory, but it's never directly explained.
I agree. I mean, I like it when some of it is directly explained, enough to make the story meaningful, but the rest is left vague or at least only implied. SU seemed like it was headed that way for a while but dropped it.

>non-dropped
Don't speak so soon.

No it's not, and that's why many works fall flat because they think they have to explain some irrelevant shit.

That's an issue of over-explaining. If you give nothing though, you don't have a world - you have a geographical location.

A story, like a cartoon's, can have little background, but worldbuilding necessarily comes with history.

>worldbuilding necessarily comes with history

No it doesn't, SEE: Cowboy Beebop

SU isn't even that deep.
Like ankle deep with the occasional place where it goes belly deep.

What are you talking about? It had references to the past event of the gate accident. And it drew from the history of our own world with stuff like the space shuttle and the betamax player. Also there's all the backstories of the four characters.

The world of Bebop definitely had a history, even if it is relatively simple. Besides, my point isn't that stories need history, it's that the act of worldbuilding needs history.

Kamen Rider Gaim

Yes. Rick and Morty, as maligned as it is on Sup Forums, it is a pretty decent comedy show with some creative ideas. But people droning on about it's non-existent "philosophy" or "woah, this Rick is actually the rick of c-13i4iii3i3i3, it's a huge conspiracy etc." need to fuck off.

>100+ episodes

Fuck, has it really been that long? God damn there are some decent parts to this show but fucking townie episodes make me hate myself for liking it.So much could have been done if not for the "IT'S NOT FILLER because it has one tiny thing that might be relevant in another episode" garbage.

The history of what happened to the previous civilization and where the overlords/inves came from. How the yggdrasil corporation started.

I don't see what the point of this exercise is though. Any world is going to have a sequence of events, which gives it a history.

I think this is one of the reasons why Star Wars was such a hit back in the day. Characters mentioned Clone Wars and The Force and Toshee Station and you didn't quite know what the hell they were talking about but you were able to infer bits of it through the actions, emotions and dialogue. Things weren't spoonfed to the audience just because of the author's insecurities of "what if my story is really weak and doesn't hold its own". This is also why Adventure Time and Steven Universe suck in this regard. You can tell their creators are very insecure of the grand-scheme universe they created.

The Overlords world is completely independent though. For all intents and purposes it's basically an alien invasion story.

You're probably onto something, though I imagine Lucas was probably really insecure about how well his universe would hold up as well.

"Context? No, no, we need a three paragraph page of text to float by at the beginning that explains the setting! How else will the audience know that the rebels are good and the empire is evil?"

Sure but it's part of the story and it's a past event. Besides it's the history of that world that becomes the catalyst for the events that occur during the show. And everything about Zawame and Yggdrasil was on earth. They don't drop you in at time 0, there's stuff that happened before the show when starts.

And again my point isn't that a story necessarily needs much history, but building a world needs something.

I think this basically sums up SU's problem. It assumes that people give a shit enough to actually stick around through DEPEST LORDE when it's literal hundreds of episodes to do what most series do in one or two seasons.

No, that would be filler my good man.
Good story, pacing, character development and over all writing of said lore is what make an excellent show and this did it RIGHT But from what I've learn on the threads the SU crew seems to be suffering from a writers block and abit of infighting?

Lucas didn't give two shits about if Star Wars was gonna hold itself or not. He had plan B through Z in case that happened, including simply quiting that and move to the next movie because he was already a B-tier director at least. Luckily for him, it was a hit and he became a billionaire. Rebecca Sugar and Penton Ward can't say the same.

Even without the personal stuff, the differences between hits like Star Wars and these shows is that everything in the lore was planned out in an incredibly autistic level, yet they never tell you shit. There's entire bibles for these settings but they only tell loose pieces of it, and the rest you can (and must) imagine for yourself. It's very different to have a 3-minute scroll that vaguely describes the backstory and another to have every single episode of your show feel like a tour guide through some shitty DeviantArt setting, like with SU.

>deep lore shows
I assume you mean plot driven shows. They aren't bad but the fanbases they spawn are cancerous.

Its got to the point where we can't have an episodic show anymore without some people screeching about lore or shitting on it.

Clarence is still be shit talked by people who just write it off before watching it

Not necessarily but for sure they haven't been doing a good job trying to make me think otherwise.

What if the lore is too deep? Like ponu

no the no lore shows are

Gaim is basically the opposite of SU. A normal Kamen Rider series will usually have similar problems to Steven Universe since the director and writers will have 46-49 episodes to fill out and a bunch of other obligations to work into it during that run time, let alone things like movies, crew egos, and special episodes. You usually wind up with a set up, a bunch of filler, and then a finale. OOO is probably the biggest example since literally about a dozen episodes in a row were just everyone fucking around with Date since Hiroaki Iwanaga was apparently so fun to be around on set they refused to kill him off.

Gaim got around the problem since it had actual discrete arcs where the metaplot built up. Kaitou and the other riders were the primary antagonists for a while until Takatora actually got his shit together. But then once we got several episodes to figure out his motives as he actively did things it was revealed he was chasing after another enemy. Then it looped back around on itself as the other riders came back to the forefront and everything actually flowed well and things escalated at a good pace.

If SU was run the same way then Lapis would actually have been an antagonist for more than one episode and her character would have been explored and established then instead of like two years later. Thus when she was actually captured and brought back people would care because we'd know who it was besides "that girl who tried to drown Connie". Thus when Lapis switches sides it has weight, and Jasper would probably do actually villainous things instead of ALSO taking two years to do anything, and Jaspers gem corruption bit would have segue's more naturally into the cluster stuff, and so on.

The SU way of doing things is to establish something, forget about it, then 30 or so episodes later bring it up again out of nowhere to pretend you're smart.

Shit dude, I was agreeing with him. I was just points out that even Star Wars breaks the rule of "show, don't tell" from time to time. Didn't mean to imply that SW was somehow as bad as SU.

Sure, I don't disagree with you on any of that.

But I also don't know what that had to do with what we were talking about.

Yeah because all of the classic Looney Tunes sucked because there was no bullshit about an infamous galactic unicorn war that never gets mentioned outside of some background poster and, I don't know, a character's eyes going off in a certain direction during a song about ice cream sandwiches.

Shows like SU and AT fall apart on the deep lore angle because the summation of subtle build up and development always amounts to naught for two reasons

1: conclusions are rushed to restore the status quo

2: The core of the series is whacky, uncaring cartoony hijinks, and trying to build a pillar of serious storytelling just doesn't work.

A perfect example of 2. in SU is how humanity is supposed to represent a desirable, special emotional heart in a cold universe that these alien gems become enthralled with.

But it falls apart because humans who aren't Connie and Greg exist for nothing but dumb filler episodes and jokes and don't even give a damn that magic fucking aliens exist in plain view.

No, it's just kind of disappointing to see good lore wasted on kids shows and know those shows will never reach their full potential and know that unless it's something HUGE like Pokemon or Yu Gi Oh, 95% of the viewership doesn't actually give a shit about the lore, see; Ben 10.

They can be. Because they have two fates, the fate of SU/AT where hack writers don't know have to pace story based series and leave important plot points hanging for two seasons to address it later.

It took us 50+ if not more, episodes to learn what the fuck those corrupted gems are from episode 1. Like what kind of fucking world building is this where they won't even fucking explain the origins of the enemies they are fighting. Instead they just throw in wacky characters who seem to be villians but then their story line straightens out and no one explains shit.

Or you get shit like gravity falls, where they set up a WHOLE BUNCH of deep lore shit, but then end in season 2 in a rushed manner to the point where it felt like all the mystery that could be explored and hinted it was left untouched and just ultimately dispapointing because of what you know it could have been.

If it's done right, it's actually netao, but being done right means that kids aren't interested in it and get bored rather quickly.

I feel like AT has managed to do the 2nd point decently well, the entire show has gotten more serious as it went on and the universe is big enough that I never considered any of the serious stuff that happened as preventing anymore goofy hi-jinks from happening in the future.

SU can't do as well because everything is so focused toward their main plot so it feels so off when big things happen that threaten all the character's lives yet no one acts on it for ages and has fun shenanigans instead.

you honestly haven't seen a lot of rider if you think gaim avoided any of the typical pitfalls of the series.

please get the uro-dick out of your mouth and realize gaim is just a worse ryuki.

>because everything is so focused toward their main plot
Two thirds of the episodes are either townie bullshit or some inconsequential event that could be chalked up to "character development" for one of the gems.

How about X-Files, where it literally never goes anywhere.

Is it really deep lore if there is no progression and it's all on a treadmil? That's like calling samurai jack a deep lore show. They have a basic story and world they built but new scenarios every week to encounter that end up going back to status quo. It isn't really deep lore, it gives the impression there is, but you just learn there isn't.

It's not that bad but you get what I mean. Everything is built around the world's history (at least the important parts) and they've been hinting at the gem empire coming for them for like two years and have continuously been building on that little by little but it took them forever to go anywhere with it.

It all comes back to the townies not feeling 'real'. They feel more alien than the fucking gems because at least the gems react to the world around them and question why certain things are happening.

The humans are so passive and accepting that it becomes annoying watching them. Do something you shitheads.

This quote from Jesse Moynihan sums up why AT is the way it is.

"It’s interesting to me how Adventure Time’s character arcs happen on their own time, rather than in a direct, continuous line. I think this is because all the pieces are falling all over the place, and you have to wait and see how they land. Then you gage where your ideas maybe fit in that landscape. It can take a long time to get an idea through at the moment where it’ll work harmoniously with everything else that’s going on. The philosophy of Adventure Time I feel, is that life is moving along without a “story”. Life is just life. The story part is the pieces that viewers put together. I don’t know if that’s a perfect description but maybe it’s a loose template for how our story threads work."

I realize I came off as hostile with that post. Didn't mean to. It's just that I really hate what an overestimated show SU is, specially when there's better things made by better people that don't even get the chance to start because of it.

No. The people who feel they are more important or better than other shows are.

That would be fine, if there was even a sense of time to be had in that show. There is no time or progression in the show to explain how "things happen when they do, not because it's convenient for plot". Any major event that affects later episodes, is never impactful on other things. If they want to imply "Oh the reason this arc was started two seasons ago and addressed now is because the passage of time hasn't allowed for that event to happen in the world yet." but they lack one the basic anchor to validate this whole thing, time. No viewer has an understand of how much time passes between this two season arc. Is it a day? A year? No one knows. It's all episodic non connecting shit unless it's part of an arc stated at a time where most of the audience forgot it was even a thing.

Looney Toons is bad because there weren't enough shorts where bugs bunny cried and sang about his feelings. Looney Toons animators also used model sheets and those are a tool of the heteronormative patriarchy.

There is totally a sense of time. Finn ages (but doesn't physically grow which is lame as shit), character relationships develop, histories are explored, this all totally happens. From the most recent seasons episodes have been continuously connected to each other more and more in both explicit and subtle ways. Have you been watching the show recently?

AT for sure has a problem with waiting a fucking ridiculous amount of time to bring stuff back, I mean there's one plot point that was sitting in limbo for literally over 5 years, but your points aren't very valid imo.

Not even /mlp/ understand how deep the lore is. The first 3 seasons form the first chapter, where the lore builds itself from the very beginning to the end every other or so episode. The main character learns to teleport at the first 4 episodes and it becomes her quirk. She does it so naturally, that even now the fans don't notice it being her habit. They even highlight the importance of this by showing her mother being a character from past shows who was known for her ability to teleport herself. At season 3 finale, the fans are so distracted with everything else thats going on, that they miss the fact that the main character created the deus ex by teleporting.

The show never brings any of it verbally up. None of it. Its too deep.

even Tolkien, the king of worldbuilding, said that a few unexplained things make the story more interresting

No I dropped the show like most people because they got sick of waiting a year to see an arc finish. It got boring, and honestly, I'd rather have seen more episodic shit, because it slowly became 15+ long ranging arcs that will be addressed way later and every three episodes was a filler. So it's like, "Okay here's an episode that didn't matter, but here are 20 that do that don't connect with eachother and has yet to shown itself to conclude any time soon.

They need to finish the shit they start before making new shit.

Yeah but kids actually call bullshit on that and they actually enjoy succinct guidelines and cohesive set lore, kids like learning set stats and figuring out who could beat up who and all that kind of junk, thus why shit like Pokemon is so big and makes kids give enough shits to learn about and memorise the names of 600+ fucking Pokemon, their types, their evolutions and their background lore in the case of legendaries and actually enjoy it. Same with DBZ, Yu Gi Oh, Naruto and X Men. Same reason why a lot of kids don't give a shit about comics but indulge in powerlevelfaggotry. You can't say "life is just life" to kids because they think that fucking sucks donkey cock.

I could tell by how you were describing it, if anything AT references previous stuff that happens so often nowadays that you need to be a mega-autist like me who remembers everything to fucking understand it. It's fine to think the show got boring but don't just make shit up man.

I can get not liking the philosophy but AT's whole deal is that "the journey is the destination maaan" sort of shit where if you're only watching for the Lich or Simon and Marcy or nuclear war history you'll be bored 99% of the time and interested maybe once every 14 months. You have to fully enjoy the show or not bother. I can respect that after realizing it wasn't doing what you preferred you chose to not bother.

A few unexplained things are good, but they shouldn't be plot heavy, and important things. A good world gives you a good understanding of what made the world what it is, not EVERYTHING, but the important things that clearly had an impact. Things that are unexplained could even be explained as "lost in time information" because it wasn't really important. It's a neat fact, but not dependent to know to get the feel of the world. But don't defend the lack of information for SU as anything what tolkien does.

They built a very small world on earth, and really never explained shit about it or why no one seems to question the plethora of alien artifacts scattered across the globe. No one explains gem culture outside of "Hur dur, we dun kno emotions." and in reality we have yet to be given an understanding on what the fuck the gems are even doing in a galactic scale. Why was earth important, why do they need these weapons, why are they using planters to churn out soldiers for war. There are many questions as to what the fuck the world is we are in to experience. The most development we get from world building is assholes in beach city, and their world building means nothing because it has nothing to do with the actual antagonist or real conflict of the story.

A lack of information of a tragedy that happened in a character's life or an event is one thing. But to leave out chunks of a map not yet explored this far in? It's shoddy shit my man.

Depends on the kid I guess, because I was never into that stuff. A lot of them definitely are of course. Either way, I don't see how enjoyment of those things precludes enjoyment from other forms of entertainment.

Not when the lore is actually good. So mostly, yeah, they're cancerous.

>Sup Forums claims to hate lore shows
>they're literally the only shows people talk about in any depth around here
>Slice of Life cartoons and shorts get 0 threads until they start having LE DEEP LORE
The catalog speaks for itself.

Someone will try to pull that bullshit "there's nothing to discuss with good things" but lore and waifus is all most people give a shit about really

Reminder that Avatar, which was full of "deep lore" is considered one of the best cartoons out there.

Deep lore isn't the problem, the problem is that people are either shit and doing it or have to compromise between telling a story and making an episodic show.

anybody have downloads of the new episodes?

I don't know really. I say it depends on the team.
That said, I do agree that "Deep Lore" shows are starting to wear out their welcome.

Absolutely yes.
Steven Universe is probably the worst example of these types of shows, because the only reason people give a shit about SU is because it uses the "carrot on a stick" method of cockteasing the viewers with "deep and interesting" plot outcomes/history and then doesn't do shit with them until 2-3 years later. This is just a lazy way of keeping the audience from leaving.

What ends up happening is 1.) the fan theories made during the waiting time end up being much more interesting than canon and/or 2.) people get tired of waiting and move on to other shit.

The core problem of pretty much all "lore" shows is that they rely heavily on hiding shit from the viewer, and it's main draw is "find out more ~deep lore~ next week/episode/season/etc."

A show that relies too much on mystery (i.e. Gravity Falls or SU) is doomed to have a divided audience; one half praises the shit out of it (because "muh lore"), the other half becomes underwhelmed or disappointed with it and may eventually lose interest.

You need to understand the difference between deepest lore and DERPA LER!

A none of that is necessary for the story

when it's just an excuse to pull shit for a one shot it really is. Lots of modern "deep lore" isn't planned, it's just the writters padding the script with "this looks nice there and maybe I'll get an idea later to continue that". sometime it's not even planned to be continued, they just rewatch an old episode/read an autist blog and it gives them an idea 2-3 years after the content was written.

They suck in that they last for like 200 episodes, yet only about 30 of them are actual "plot" episodes.

They're having their cake and eating it, yet the cake is pretty shitty. At least AT is saying "fuck it" and just doing mini-series now.

>if you're only watching for the Lich or Simon and Marcy or nuclear war history

Why would you ever be watching AT for that shit? Those things were never important

No you're probably just getting confused because they naturally get discussed and analyzed more

Its like how a large city has more crime than a small town
its not that the large city is a terrible thing on the contrary its very integral to the prosperity of any nation
its just that you put enough variables into a single defined area and the potential outcomes grow exponentially

How do we fit Star vs. in this conversation?

it's just as garbage. actually it's worse.

By reading the current Star vs. thread right now. It's in one of it's Deep Lore cycles.

Dies Irae

People like SU for more than just its lore so this is a flawed argument. Does it drag stuff out? Yes. Is it the only reason to watch the show? No.

Check /trash/ or Dailymotion if you want to stream them.