Star Wars: The Last Jedi’s Hitchcock-style twist is its best moment

Maybe it’s easy to take for granted these days just how subversive Psycho was in 1960. Its first-act twist — Marion Crane, our ostensible hero, is brutally stabbed by an unseen killer while in the shower — is a radical gesture, proof that director Alfred Hitchcock didn’t give a damn about the audience’s expectations or even narrative convention.

Now, I’m not saying that Star Wars: The Last Jedi’s director, Rian Johnson, compares to Alfred Hitchcock. But Johnson makes a key choice in telling the story of The Last Jedi that’s striking in the same way that the shower scene in Psycho is. A key moment in the latest Star Wars film is just as disorienting, bucking the franchise’s deeply rooted convention to create The Last Jedi’s most tense, exciting and unforgettable moment.

Halfway through The Last Jedi’s very lengthy runtime, Kylo Ren presents Rey, his captive, to his master, Supreme Leader Snoke. Snoke’s an intimidating being, even more so than the unhinged Kylo Ren: He’s not human; he’s physically imposing; he’s the Supreme Leader, after all. Without her lightsaber and with just vengeful Kylo Ren alongside her, Rey looks pretty much doomed while facing down Snoke.

The scene feels familiar, like an homage to Empire Strikes Back: Rey will lose her first battle against the trilogy’s impossible villain. She’ll probably come out of this one with at least both hands, I thought to myself, holding my breath; but she won’t come out of it totally unscathed.

But then Johnson does something that, in hindsight, maybe isn’t all that surprising. Rey and Kylo Ren’s relationship has become a cornerstone of the new trilogy — they went through a lot together in The Force Awakens, finding something recognizable in each other. Even though he’s the one who’s offered Rey up to Snoke, Kylo Ren is not about to let his fellow Force-sensitive orphan (by choice or not) go this easily.

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finding something recognizable in each other. Even though he’s the one who’s offered Rey up to Snoke, Kylo Ren is not about to let his fellow Force-sensitive orphan (by choice or not) go this easily.

And then we get my absolute favorite shot in the film: With Kylo Ren and Rey in the foreground, and Snoke unfocused in the back, a well-placed lightsaber cuts Snoke right in half.

Johnson never refocuses the camera. He doesn’t immediately cut away to Snoke’s lifeless body, now divided in halfway. Instead, we stay with Rey — our hero — and Kylo Ren — who, we’ll soon find out, is our true villain — as the pair fights off a swath of Snoke’s royal guards. It’s a beautiful, seamless transition. My eyes were wide and unblinking with awe.

This is not The Last Jedi’s grand finale. Oh no; the film keeps going, and going, and going. Say what you will about how much longer it goes on for, but for me, the film’s true climax happens here. The villain I thought would last until Episode 9 was dead. Kylo Ren, Han Solo’s murderer, had saved Rey from an easy demise. The pair were now united in some unbreakable and unspoken way, even as the rest of the film makes sure to add more shades of gray into that bond.

Johnson rewrites the standard Star Wars trilogy setup in just a swift, beautifully shot scene. Rey gets another chance to prove herself, and Kylo Ren assumes his true position as the Supreme Leader. He’s a villain even more unpredictable than his grandfather, Darth Vader, and Rey is a hero whose odds are even more greatly stacked against her than her mentor and counterpart, Luke Skywalker.

Of course it had to be this way. But it took Rian Johnson shockingly twisting the knife, or turning on the lightsaber, halfway through the film to prove it.

Also.

Gayest and most wrong thing ive ever heard

But Rey lives. It would've been Hitchcockian if Kylo actually killed her as Snoke ordered, and then the narrative fully shifts over to him. Snoke isn't the bait-and-switch potagonist, he was introduced as an Emperor-type antagonist, meaning as per the OT he only serves the character development of his Vader-analogue. Which he did. Kylo betrayed him as per the expectations. The twist is that Kylo still wants to rule the galaxy. Well... actually that's no twist, it's just what would have happens of Vader successfully overthrew Palpatine before Luke managed to appeal to the remnant of Anakin inside him.

>I want to sound deep using my undergrad Film 101 knowledge: the post

What an embarrassment

This would've made TLJ kino, though ep 9 movie would probably just boil down to Luke defeating the bad guy and saving the day

Counter-theory:

They killed him because he was an unpopular crappy character that wouldn’t sell any toys

I remember when Executive Decision was billed as a Steven Segal movie...then Steven Segal dies five minutes in.

You mean not-Luke aka Rey. Yes, most likely. And she will exhibit a level of control and skill and new Force powers Luke could never have dreamed of.

Not necessarily. I like that guy's idea and it would make ep 9 more exciting.

In ep 8:
>Kylo takes Rey down, even though she may be the 'last jedi'.
>Kylo and Luke fight, and Kylo wins, and THAT'S when you find out he is a force hologram.
>He gets mad when he realises that he was so caught up in fighting Luke that he let the resistance get away

Ep 9:
>Kylo is the real last jedi
>Whole film leads up to Luke vs Kylo
>Finn and Poe destroy the first order in their own subplot
>But when Luke faces off with Kylo, he doesn't kill him.
>Instead, he turns him back to the light side, just like he did with Vader in his final moments.
>Luke could either save Kylo here, or sacrifice himself to let Kylo live
>He makes right by his big 'mistake' of nearly killing Kylo and letting his nephew turn to the dark side. He honors Han and Leia by saving his son.
>First order is dead, and the Jedi can reign supreme and bring balance to the universe

You get all the star wars-y rhyming with Kylo mirroring Anakin, but refusing to go full darth. You still get a happy ending. Problem is no Rey, and people would complain that episode 9 is 'all white men'. However, I see episode 9 following this basic outline but with Rey instead of Luke.

I'm talking about a hypothetical ep 8 where Kylo kills Rey

Not bad, user. The best we could probably do with the mess that has been this new trilogy

Plain retarded. Making someone take a dump on screen, especially in a Star Wars movie, might have the same effect as Rian's bs decision. It would fuck with audiences. On the other hand the franchises narrative wouldn't be completely up the ass, so better the shitter than Kylo Snoke splitter desu. It was just stupid narratively, to kill him off like this, at least as of now. The First Order seems completely idiotic, since all you see of them is retarded. Not scary, simply stupid. Snoke could have balanced that,but nah, let's let the fucking kids run this shit show.

>It would've been Hitchcockian if Kylo actually killed her as Snoke ordered, and then the narrative fully shifts over to him.
That would have been so cool. Just an entire hour worth of Kylo.

this site is on autopilot

You're sprinkling glitter on dog shit.

Why are people attaching so much meaning to this film? It's a okay if not somewhat dumb sci-fi movie, this is just grasping at fucking straws to try and convince people it's not all just a Disney cash grab.

>He’s not human
Wait, he's not? I thought Snoke was just ugly and disfigured beyond recognition

Nope, he's an alien, which is really weird since the Empire hated aliens but suddenly the leader of the First Order is an alien.

>the Jedi can reign supreme and bring balance to the universe

There can't be balance if the jedi reign supreme. There needs to be both sides. If one side gets too powerful it just sets up the other side to upset the power. The jedi might as well murder billions if they seek power themselves. It is best they stay small.

>Nope, he's an alien
Is that actually stated somewhere in the movies?

In which alternate version of history was this even a twist? It was plain obvious from the start, that Kylo would not follow Snokes order. Have you even seen the movie? In literally every scene before that confrontation Kylo said something like "nobody controls me" "I decide for myself" and similar stuff. The twist would have been, if he had killed Ren or Ren had submitted to Snoke out of free will to rule together.

No, but it is stated in this so there's no reason to doubt it.

Ah okay, I was just wondering if I missed something like that

That makes sense. I do wish it was stated or even alluded to in the film at some point and will admit that is a clear flaw with the film, but I get fed up with the people I've seen on this board who insist that anything that is not stated in the films isn't true when there's readily available official material that backs it up.

>In literally every scene before that confrontation Kylo said something like "nobody controls me" "I decide for myself" and similar stuff.
>tfw Kylo is literally Master Asia

In a scene that ríos off RotJ, you might add.

What the hell do you mean "ríos"? Look at that, you even put a little accent over the i. What's going on here?

This will honestly go down as one of the worst twists in film history. Trust me, nobody is rewatching this film to feel good or marvel at it like we did TESB or ANH.

What exactly feels good about ESB? 90% of the film is watching the characters suffer.

Exactly. It meant something when Han is frozen. It meant something when Luke got fucked up. It meant something when Lando rused and then was rused.

And yet at no point do we feel betrayed by them. This film only made me hate the filmmakers and Rey, TFA didn't do that. I watched the film, I won't be watching it again, ever.

>ITS DIFFERENT SO IT'S GOOD

"Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi" entertains as comfort food in filmic form, but this is an altogether slighter experience than the spectacular one "Star Wars: Episode VII - The Force Awakens" provided. One goes to "Star Wars" hoping to be wholly and consistently immersed, but this time the jagged edges poke through. In addition to its reluctance to break new ground the way "The Empire Strikes Back" did, Johnson stumbles at times while attempting to capture a tone with humor, fun, and dramatic gravitas. The light-hearted moments are frequently forced, from a pratfall off a bed to a surreal phone gag that reminds of a joke which might have been seen in a "Scary Movie" sequel fifteen years ago. And then there are the Porgs, small sea birds that look just like Furbies. They may be cute but they are entirely inconsequential and unctuous, shoehorned in as a way to pander to younger audience members while providing grindingly unfunny comic relief. If the cliffhangers typically found at the end of the best middle chapters in a trilogy typically leave one drooling to find out what happens next, "Star Wars: Episode VIII - The Last Jedi" opts not to end with much of a cliffhanger at all. Yes, there are still plot threads to work out and the fight between the Resistance and the First Order is yet to be solved, but all things considered it's not much different than where "The Force Awakens" ended—only with less pathos. This is a fine film in spite of its many issues, easily recommendable to fans, but somehow "fine" isn't satisfying enough in the shadow of the greatness which preceded it.

I'm assuming it was a typo (read: rips.) He's not wrong.

>luke goes to vader to turn him
>emperor tortures luke and wants him dead
>vader rebels against emperor and kills him

>Rey is a hero whose odds are even more greatly stacked against her than her mentor and counterpart, Luke Skywalker.

How? Luke was maimed, friend lost to the Empire and had two Sith lords and the galactic Empire against him at the end of ESB. The more powerful villain is dead at the end if TLJ and we already know she can beat kylo ren. Yea he still has an army (not an empire) but she just needs to track him down and super rey him as we already know she is capable of. Are we suppose to be worried about the heroes?

The (((journalists))) insultingly stupid and rabid defense of this film is almost worse than the film itself

Because she is a woman and women are the weaker gender.

I do wish she'd lost an arm like Luke did but then 1) people would be complaining that it ripped off ESB and 2) people would be complaining that a man hurt Rey. Or something.

I’m sure your mom’s proud you came outta her

I wish she had lost a head.

Unrelated but did anyone else notice she looked thicker in this film? If nothing else she was slightly better to look at

Killing Snoke is not tantamount to killing the protagonist of the movie, so that basic premise of comparing this to Hitchcock is null.

That said, I do agree that killing Snoke was potentially the point where this franchise could have been saved. It was the biggest breaking off point from the OT we had yet - Ren, deciding to leave his dark ambitions behind, murders Snoke, puts his hands on the wheel of the First Order, and has the freedom to choose a new path.

Instead, he chooses to go back and do the same old shit. I cannot stress enough how frustrating it is to have a scene where Kylo goes "forget the dark and the light, empire and rebellion, jedi and sith. Let's build something new" cut immediately to a battle of Hoth rehash.

I've said it before about this movie, but it wasn't interested in taking chances, only presenting you with an illusion that it was taking chances. It played it as safe as could be and that is evident by where we end up narratively at the end of the film.

>Marion Crane, our ostensible hero
>Slut Thief was a hero

She just found out a bigger evil than herself, what the fuck is this shit

Star Wars is a space fairy tale. If it compares to Hitchcock instead this is not a compliment to the author-director.

it seems like Johnson's TLJ wanted to be an edgy Star Wars deconstruction but he cucked to Kennedy and the (((Story Group))) at Lucasfilms and the overlords at Disney to shoehorn in:
1. Endless feminist/critical theory shit that Katherine Kennedy and Kiri Hart love; honestly look up what these two lunatics think
2. Disney needs formulaic feels-like-star-wars story telling hence the ending of TLJ, which has evil empire chasing our plucky heroes.

This is why we've got JJ Abrams coming back into the fold. It will be hilarious watching him try to make a TFA-esque film with the lack of set up from TLJ. We are going to get mysteries and shit reveals that were set up in TFA and gloss over TLJ.

The only way I see going forward is that they jump 10 - 15 years from the end of TLJ in order to set the stage for a new premise in order to wrap up the trilogy. The movie will start with an explanation of premise that Rey and co have to figure out, explain away Carrie Fischer's death by having Leia dying off-screen years ago, and the film will be a two hour rehash of TFA. it will set up a previously unseen bad guy, so we can have an evil wizard to defeat. It will culminate in Rey defeating Kylo, learning that her own father was Luke or Kenobi or some other stupid relation, Kylo turning good last moment and helping defeat generic evil wizard.

It will be this dumb.

This actual retard doesn't even know what he's talking about. In psycho, the reason the main actress is killed so quickly is because it tells a story about a psychopath murderer.

It's not about Kubricks opinion about the character, it's how something like that would happen in real life and that's what's so shocking about it.

Kylo is just a cowardly shithead who rebels against something that he is afraid of, which wrecks Snoke's original purpose completely.

Blink twice if you're being held hostage.

Blink many times if you're high af.

>entertains as comfort food in filmic form,

TFA did that. TLJ was a meal I didn't order with a taste I didn't like.

>Instead, he chooses to go back and do the same old shit. I cannot stress enough how frustrating it is to have a scene where Kylo goes "forget the dark and the light, empire and rebellion, jedi and sith. Let's build something new" cut immediately to a battle of Hoth rehash.

In fact, if they ended TLJ right there, I would have been willing to overlook a lot of this shit the movie puts the audience through.

At that point, Star Wars could have ventured away from its confines into something else. I can't help but think this is where Disney pulled rank and noped this idea into oblivion, which is why we end up with Kylo as Supreme Leader now (and the whole FO, including Hux being cool with that) and setting up another final battle that will be as gay as Storm Troopers fighting Ewoks.

...

UNHH

Not as proud as your mom was when I came into her.

...

It might be true, but the movie should give you enough background already that you don't have to consult the manual for nearly EVERYTHING.

Yes, I stated that it is a flaw with the film. That's not what bothers me. What bothers me is the people who act as if the information does not exist just because they don't care to read it. Strangely, I've only seen this stubbornness with Star Wars.

Well, Kylo actually gets to control The First Order now so maybe we could get a movie where basically Vader and Palpatine are inside the same person BUT he has conflicts, that could be an interesting story.

It's because the prequels did it first, with stuff like Grievous' origin or Palpatine's capture, hell, most of the clone wars relegated to books and later two TV cartoons instead of being stated in the film. Disney promised up front to not do that shit with the PT, and then it happened to an even harsher degree. Even people who used to consume EU material throughout the Prequel phase have outgrown this behaviour/don't have time to read/play everything anymore and would just like a new movie trilogy that's self-contained, with optional branching media for side characters of interest. Instead, You NEED the Visual Dictionaries to even begin to understand why the Resistance and the FO can exist in a post-ROTJ timeline. That is basic information that the viewer is not privy to unless they pay up for a book with largely gobbledygook and nonsensical trivia in it. Or does it help me understand the movie better if I know Krennic's cape is antistatic, or that his mind is "focused on architecture and conspiracies"? Or that someone is wearing the "vambraces of Shmoorp" with a red coat lining "in remembrance of the battle of Ragglefraggle?"

Hux takes over as reluctant right hand plotting to destroy Kylo, who fills the Emperor's/Supreme Leader's position now.

>Instead, You NEED the Visual Dictionaries to even begin to understand why the Resistance and the FO can exist in a post-ROTJ timeline. That is basic information that the viewer is not privy to unless they pay up for a book with largely gobbledygook and nonsensical trivia in it.
That's a part of the problem. I can't believe I'm saying this, but we should have had one or two political scenes.

A bald assertion isn't an argument. I've already refuted your representation based arguments. Give me something else.

>It's because the prequels did it first
No, the OT did it first. Or did you forget that A New Hope is episode 4, literally beginning the story in medias res. There's tons of stuff in the OT that was not explained until later.

youtube.com/watch?v=Kj3opk1QFTM

>implying Snoke died halfway through

He died like nearly 2 hours into the 2 and a half hour film

It made it less of a twist and more of "Oh so there's no real threat or climax to the ending then"

This implies that Snoke ever felt threatening to begin with.

New idea of damage control

Rian Johnson = Alfred Hitchcock

New idea of retard

This guy = retard

ITS A GREAT MOCIEEEE

IT HAS A FEMALE LEADDDDDD

IT HAS PLOT TWISTS AND STAR WARS

Tons of stuff that was inconsequential throwaway lines that still conveyed enough to hold the plot at hand together. Like, nobody needed to know WHAT the clone wars were, only that Luke's father fought alongside Old Ben. You also learn that there was a time before the "Evil Empire" where a republic ruled. You didn't need to know who Jabba was, only that Han had to settle debts with him and would face dire consequences if he didn't. Stuff like that. Blue milk also was inconsequential, it just looked alien. That's world building. TLJ actually does it when Poe is surprised that Mrs. Halo McBallgown is Holdo, who apparently achieved a great victory in the battle of Whatchummacallit. The important thing about that sentence was that she was capable of military thinking and good at her job. Shame the movie did nothing with it, it was pure tell don't show.

You also forget that the OT was all there was to Star Wars. The PT itself turned out supplemental material to the OT fluff. The ST is the third trilogy and kinda just happens unexplained as far as the movies are concerned, because it gives no context how the status quo got wrecked so hard inbetween ROTJ and TFA, which ended on a high note for the Alliance, an even higher one in the Special Edition 1997 onward, which shows the Empire completely crumbling (whether it makes sense or not). TFA just throws you in and shows you stuff that doesn't seem to gel with what we last knew about the universe.

He could have been a proper threat throughout TLJ if Rian Johnson didn't suck at writing

Why do these people care so much about "subversion"? I get that subverting expectations can be fun sometimes, but these people seem really obsessed with the concept. Like it's some kind of driving principle for them almost.
Really gets the noggin joggin.

WAT U THORT WUD HAPPEN DIBN'T HAPPEN SO VERFOR ISS A GUD MOOBIE

The Citizen Kane of Dark Souls of Star Wars.

They're trying too hard...

It's a film critic thing because film critics have seen way too many films so they like a film doesn't take the direction they were expecting it to take, doesn't use the same story beats they've seen a million times. And I get that.

Thing is, TLJ ISN'T as subversive as these people are saying it is. It plays it safe. Constantly. Which makes me think that these people haven't actually seen much film and are just saying subversive because they hear their betters saying it about other films.

You want an example of an actually subversive film? No Country for Old Men.

>Kylo betrayed him as per the expectations.
This. How the fuck can it be a twist if they make it so goddamn obvious that it's going to happen? The twist would have been Kylo NOT killing Snoke, THAT would have been surprising.

They could have at least not framed it so obviously. Like have it be a genuine surprise when the lightsaber went through Snoke, instead of showing Kylo slowly moving his hand and turning the lightsaber. How dumb does Johnson think the audience is?

Well, the intended audience is 12 year olds and kids visiting with their parents, but even they should have seen ROTJ by this point and piece together the most likely course of action.

...

GODS

MY ARSE

A bald assertion isn't an argument. I've already refuted your representation based arguments. Give me something else.

Who is Snoke btw? i guess we'll never know

People never went into a Hitchcock film to subverted into watching a shitty Mel Brooks knockoff.

Advertising is against the rules.

Holy shit

Snoke was a humanoid alien who was leader of the Attendants, a retinue composed of mute alien navigators who originated from the Unknown Regions. At some unspecified point in his life, Snoke acquired a black obsidian stone from the catacombs and mines beneath the castle of the Sith Lord Darth Vader on the planet Mustafar. He affixed this stone to a golden ring he wore, which was engraved with glyphs used by the Four Sages of Dwartii, controversial figures of philosophy that dated back to the early days of the Galactic Republic.

Eventually, Snoke witnessed the rise and eventual fall of the Galactic Empire. What was left of the Galactic Empire fled to the Unknown Regions and took the shape of what eventually became the First Order. Although most of the Imperial officers would have likely perished while crossing this uncharted realm, the ancient hyperspace trails blazed by Snoke's retinue helped them to stay there and organize themselves. Although he was a powerful practitioner of the dark side of the Force, Snoke was not affiliated with the Sith, which became extinct as a result of the deaths of Darth Sidious and Vader at the Death Star II thanks to the efforts of the Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker. As such, Snoke, a master of the Force, was a seeker of arcane lore.

Anyone who thinks we won't get a prequel movie about Snoke is a fool.

The issue that Disney Star Wars has added fucking nothing to world-building like Lucas did in the OT and PT films.

>even alluded to in the film at some point
Well, he's clearly much bigger than Rey is, and his proportions don't really look human, either. I assumed he was an alien.

Also, kind of unrelated, but I remember back in the day there a lot of debate over whether or not Sheev was an alien. His reveal in TPM really disappointed a lot of people.

That's one of the byproducts of the EU. Because there was so much stuff in the EU (a lot of which was random as fuck and contradicted each other), you'd get situations were people were basically arguing over petty details and included arguments about which fanfiction was better for authority. It was really annoying, and it hasn't gone away.

Day 1 expansion for movies

Who was Snoke?
>Great question user, have you taken a look at Star Wars™: The Last Jedi™: The Visual Dictionary (Hardback), just $20 at all good bookstores, because it explains it all there.
Oh... ok

Kylo isn't even a threat to Rey. He'd rather impregnate her than kill her. This is a terrible story. Fuck this. Fucking female written fan fiction.

>Why is he horribly scarred?
It doesn't matter
>Why is he so powerful with the force?
It doesn't matter
>Why doe-
It doesn't matter

cool

>Day 1 expansion for movies

LMAO

Does anyone have that picture of Luke drinking Ren's titty milk? I think it fits.

...

Well for all its problems that's not true of the rebooted EU.

If you've noticed, there's about 6 of these threads up right now. No one is going for repeated viewings and it's grossing the lowest of all star wars movies, so they're in damage control mode.

2 of them are mine. Report in bros, which threads have you created?

IT BROKE NEW GROUND !!!

You know, people praise the OT for "not explaining anything" and hate the PT for "explaining too much", but in the ST's attempt to imitate the OT's success at this they seem to have completely missed the point. Important plot points are kept mysterious for seemingly no other reason than "This is how we understood the OT." And in doing so they show just how little they really understood the OT.

Objectively speaking. TLJ was just trash.
Could have used a much better score too.
youtube.com/watch?v=Rt0xgCwJlp0