>we're still the same rebel vs Empire as the start of ANH.
Actually it's much worse. Han is captured, Luke is missing a hand and is emotionally devastated (enough to throw himself into a bottomless hole) and the Rebellion is scattered across the galaxy, on the run and barely surviving.
I know this is bait but I'm replying anyway, fuck you.
Robert Bell
I didn't know the fate of rebellions hinged on the life of one random smuggler who fucks the princess.
>and the Rebellion is scattered across the galaxy, on the run and barely surviving. So just like the TLJ ending?
Landon Martin
Now imagine doing this in the 2017 instead 1980. How retarded you need to be to expect it will ever work (again) ?
Checkmate mouse shill.
Kevin Scott
...
Adrian Lewis
this is why movies that doesn't stand on it's own are a failure i don't get esb's circlejerk
Angel Moore
So get this, the movie starts with Luke opening a snow camel to warm himself with. What the fuck? And what is Big Foot doing in Star Wars?
Jacob Foster
>Vader is Luke's dad? EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED BRAVO KERSHNER! Kind of, but what you're missing is why that twist worked so well. Even before Lucas conceptualized Anakin being Vader, Vader already operated as a dark counterpart to Luke.
The problem people have with Luke in TLJ is that they think the set-up to his exile was out of character and the results unsatisfying.
Jaxson Turner
>i don't get esb's circlejerk It presented the most introspective story Star Wars has had and enriched the moral/spiritual stakes while still delivering a fun adventure movie with memorable new characters.
Bentley Thomas
>Vader is Luke's dad? EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED BRAVO KERSHNER! This twist worked because it showed the human side of a villain and raised the emotional stakes. The twists in TLJ are all retarded and that's why people are making fun of them
Jack Gomez
>Hamill is still sorry because Luke cut off Big Foot arm in ESB >In TLJ they made Luke attempt to murder his nephew because he could turn dark side
Imagine being Mark Hamill.
Jordan Perry
In every shill thread until you like it, OP!
Listen you idiots The Last Jedi sucked. But it did not suck because of all this alt-right/neo-nazi garbage. It sucked because: 1. The plot was a modern corporate “set-piece” showcase that made up “cool scenes” and wrote a story around them instead of creating a plot that could generate excitement through it’s narrative. 2. Rey is bad not because she’s a powerful competent women, she’s boring because she is a generic paint by numbers “insert-here” protagonist meant to be as inoffensive as possible so no possible merchandising demographic would not like her. 3. Finn had a good arc in The Force Awakens. Shame then that he apparently forgot it all between movies and repeated it all this movie. That why he was so pointless, not cause he’s black. 4. Canto Bight is a thirty minute waste of time that does not effect the plot. It has no “anti-capitalist message” it has a toothless “hurr greed bad” message. 5. Holdo is a bad character because she is a walking plot device that makes decisions only so others have to take action. She was created backwards. Where they wanted Poe to learn a lesson about “not being a hot-head” but didn’t want him to actually do something wrong because then the audience wouldn’t like him (and buy his merchandise). therefore she makes contradictory and nonsensical moves because she isn’t a character, but a plot-object. None of this has to do with her purple hair (it’s space, some planets have weird hair) or being a woman. 6. Hyperspace ramming as elaborated in detail elsewhere invalidates the entire franchise. 7. Luke had all his character development from a whole trilogy wiped out. All so they could do a cliche “fed-up with life kung-fu master” cliche who then dies from thinking too hard. cont.
Christian Walker
You can very well argue that Luke exiling himself after failing to raise new Jedis is a very humanizing touch on a character often considered more myth than human.
Hell it echoes perfectly what Yoda did. And Yoda was the fucking Jedi Master of masters. Luke was on the contrary their only shot of toppling Vader. He was never the ideal candidate for the job. Hell Yoda says as much in ESB. The dark side is too strong with him.
James Price
8. The First Order are illogical, apparently they built a fleet and accompanying super weapons as big as the Galactic Empires without having a galaxy or empire to fund and build them. Somehow the entire galaxy is fine with them rolling up and taking charge without so much as a shrug because they blew up one system with a weapon they no longer have. The OT empire was well presented in how they ruled and operated the galaxy even in A New Hope. The First Order has no characterization beyond “remember the Empire?” Nothing the First Order does is even remotely related to the Republican party, their pretty generic space facists. They never rant about immigration or healthcare or really anything political other than the same "We hate Freedom" that the original Empire did, and they have a diverse multi-racial and gender equal approach to evil, more so even than the original. Unless you think being obvious pulp-Nazi stand-ins is an accurate depiction of the GOP they're pretty toothless when it comes to current political commentary. 9. Snoke is stupid, lots of critics claim “we knew nothing about the Emperor” but the viewer had no preconceived knowledge about the Star Wars universe in the original films. It stands to reason that powerful characters existed, unknown to the viewer. In the new trilogy, the universe is established, The evil was the Empire, Vader and the Emperor. For a character of Snokes immense power to exist is contradictory. It requires an explanation. And for characters such as Luke and Leia to refer to him by name, on multiple occasions, and for others such as Rey to never question this, is disconcerting, unnatural and entirely immersion breaking. cont.
Nolan Rivera
>Hamill is still sorry because Luke cut off Big Foot arm in ESB This is exactly why actors should be quiet and let actual directors direct them. Very few actors can look past their characters and see the larger part of the story. Nobody fucking complained about Big Foot getting amputated except Hamill who considers his character the flawless ideal of a hero. This despite a whole trilogy of Luke tip-toeing between light and dark.
Alexander Martinez
Empire Strikes Back is overrated. Only the beginning and the ending are particulary good. It is and always will be a weaker movie than New Hope.
Julian Hill
This. TLJ sucks, and only idiots refuse to see it.
Isaiah Martin
10. Bad costume design, In the OT and PT everyone has a unique look and silhouette that is both easy to pick out in a crowd and memorable. From the Rebels on the Tantive IV to the Tatooine/Jedi robe look, to the Naboo guard outfits, to the Troopers in the Hoth Trenches. None of the costumes in The Last Jedi do this. I couldn't tell you what most main characters wore much less the extras. Everything is so generic and uninspired you could use it in another movie and no one would notice they were reusing Star Wars costumes. 11. All the ships and vehicles are just the original trilogies with some extra lines painted on. Both the prequels and Rogue One managed to have designs that were simultaneously unique looking but still thematically similar to the original movies. everything save the salt-speeders is just a repainted original with some flaps. 12. Finally It's funny hearing people complain about "fanboys" wanting TLJ to be a retread when TLJ dedicates it's entire runtime to nullifying any changes to the story since ANH. It has been 35 years in-universe and everything is now at exactly the same point it was during ANH, Empire has uncontested rule of the galaxy, Scrappy rebels (They even change their name from Resistance to Rebels in the third act!), Dark Lord ruling the aforementioned Empire, One half-trained Jedi to keep on the Orders legacy (which has been otherwise wiped out), and so-on. The entire original trilogy might as well not have happened now because the universe has been reset to a merchandise friendly timeless limbo.
Ayden Myers
How the fuck did a massive Empire with multiple Star destroyers not beat one millenium Falcon? What is this? Coyote and the Road Runner?
Levi Jackson
>Still no info on who the fuck "The Emperor" is. We don't caaaare!
Are you retarded? He is the emperor. Like, the one leading the Empire.
Brody Howard
Idiots have seen it multiple times to convince themselves it doesn't suck. Patricians refuse to see it.
Dylan Stewart
You could argue that but you'd get BTFO before the third (you). Yoda was being hunt down by the Empire and he was still training Jedis. Luke exiles himself after CAUSING the rise of a space wizard samurai Hitler because the voices in his head told him he was evil. So he was ready to commit murder in cold blood to prevent that future, but when the future comes he does nothing?
I don't know how much the mouse is paying you but its not enough. Just focus on shilling Coco, that movies was alright at least
Jaxon Nguyen
>a whole trilogy of Luke tip-toeing between light and dark
Actually he tapped into the dark side only to beat Vader. The failure at the cave isnt considered "dark side". Cant think of any other dark side Luke moments.
Justin White
>False Equivalency: The Post The movie is called ESB which means its about survival for the Alliance. It has to take casualties but continues in a weakened state on the run. Luke grows as a force user and learns about his father. Han gets captured, Leia escapes and we're being introduced to a new pivotal character: Lando. You know, the guy who ends up destroying Death Star 2. In the next movie.
>Vader is Luke's dad? EXPECTATIONS SUBVERTED BRAVO KERSHNER! Indeed, bravo! It's generally regarded as THE epic twist in cinema.
>Still no info on who the fuck "The Emperor" is. We don't caaaare! That's great because it creates anxiousness about the final movie.
>What's with Yoda being a loser on Degobah? Jedis never give up! Google zen master.
>Ok so Obi-Wan is a literal ghost now? Why doesn't he just go to Vader to mentally fuck him? This is a fairy tale and not a college frat movie.
>The whole chase in the metroid fields can be cut. Just filler to sell toys. Toy asteroids?
>Ends on a ridiculous cliffhanger with no resolution. No, it doesn't. And every middle part of a trilogy awaits resolution.
This is fun. Please come up with more false equivalencies to debunk.
>Actually it's much worse. And now you know why it's called The Empire Strikes Back. It's not about the heroes making strides, it's about struggling.
Landon Thompson
When he considers butchering his nephew due to his mental illness
Tyler Robinson
>So get this, the movie starts with Luke opening a snow camel to warm himself with. What the fuck? And what is Big Foot doing in Star Wars? What part of sci-fantasy don't you get?
Cooper Green
I don't mind seeing Luke with flaws. I have an issue with his flaws conveniently mirroring a scenario we've already (in large part, at least) seen with characters we've already explored. Luke shouldn't be perfect, but his character in these new movies manages to feel both unconvincing and boring. >it echoes perfectly what Yoda did. Not really. Yoda secluded himself to wait until the time was right. Same as Obi-Wan. >He was never the ideal candidate He wasn't perfect, no, but it's apparent he was a good person and gifted. >The dark side is too strong with him. The whole point of the throne room scene is Luke finally understanding the Dark Side's pull but finding the strength to reject it.
Connor Flores
It's a space fairy tale. It's supposed to have mythical characters instead of realistic ones. For christ's sake, are you even a Star Wars fan?
Jonathan Brooks
This.
Easton Stewart
outside movie faggotry aside han solo was legally held by jabbas giant truck thing and dindu nuffin.
Angel Davis
So you mean, like....I don't know....island creatures that can be milked for nutritions?
Jace Hernandez
No. That would be Return of the Jedi, specifically the scenes between Luke, Vader, and the Emperor in Return of the Jedi. Empire is entirely shallow.
>i don't get esb's circlejerk Whole thing started with Clerks.
Grayson Parker
>Empire is entirely shallow No.
Aaron Long
Yes.
Mason Allen
But thats Jake Skywalker not Luke.
Hunter Sanchez
The problem wasn't that. The problem was tits which have no place in a fairy tale and the undignified behaviour of letting milk run down your fucking beard. Compare that with Obi-Wan and Yoda (who was just pretending to be retarded). It's just godawful writing by an author who didn't know that Star Wars is a space fairy tale and who, even if he knew, couldn't create drama within the frame of a space fairy tale.
David Perry
I like the throne room sequence as much as anyone, but it only exists because Empire paved the way for it and established the stakes and defined them thematically.
Brody Gomez
The Last Jedi sucked. Get over it. It was forgettable and a waste. I can't believe Kathleen Kennedy allowed it to get released like that. She is getting complacent.
Adam Hughes
WAKEY WAKEY TIME FOR UNCLE JAKEY
Caleb Edwards
>y-you trashed TLJ >so now I'm gunna trash the "best" SW movie SO BRAVE
Blake Wilson
this
Hunter Jones
You can appreciate the Luke/Vader/Emperor confrontation without ever watching Empire, though. Everything Empire sets up, Return also sets up again (and sets up better than Empire did). Return of the Jedi actually does work as a standalone film, unlike The Empire Strikes Back.
Adam Cox
The best Star Wars movie is the 1977 Star Wars, also known as "A New Hope."
Jacob Johnson
>and sets up better than Empire did Eh, no. >Return of the Jedi actually does work as a standalone film More so than Empire, yes. Empire is still a very complete and satisfying film for me though and always has been.
Hudson Morales
The fact that they moved on from the Rebellion vs Empire story after the scenes on Hoth made for a better movie. TLJ fucked up by putting the Resistance on screen for so long you eventually realize it's filled with people you don't know or care about.
Zachary Moore
And yet they still manage to kill Ackbar in the most unceremonious way.
Ryder Cook
The voice actor died.
Landon Perry
>This is fun. Please come up with more... Yeah replying to bait sure is fun
Jonathan Bennett
Go to bed, Rian.
Nathan Wright
>OP implying Disney quipshit, that literally opens with 'IS GENERAL HUGS THERE, DUDE UR MOM LMAO', is a misunderstand future classic
my sides
Hunter Barnes
>Eh, no. Eh, yeah. Jedi firmly establishes the Vader is indeed Luke's father (Empire somewhat leaves that as possibly being a lie), and very clearly establishes what's at stake before the fight even begins (while Empire only reveals that stakes once the fight is concluded).
>for me Because you're not being objective. You're bringing in things you already know about A New Hope and Return of the Jedi along with you into The Empire Strikes Back, and allowing it to paint your perception of the movie. As a standalone, The Empire Strikes Back is terrible. It doesn't do a great job re-introducing the characters, and doesn't provide a solid ending, relying on a "To Be Continued?" bullshit ending and hoping that the third one can figure out a way to tie things up (which it does).
And you know what? One of the biggest problems Jedi has, that it has to deal with how they rescue Han Solo before they can get to the main story, is caused by Empire, so whatever points you give Empire for "setting up Return" get flushed right down the drain right there.
Jayden Wilson
>Tfw the only resistance qt is killed after 5 min in the movie >She only has 10 sec of screentime
Why they do this?
Kevin Mitchell
actors being dead didnt stop disney from having grand moff tarkin in a new movie
Bentley Young
There's no reason why taking the bait cannot be fun.
Caleb Cook
Grandma Tarkin.
Asher Phillips
That was a major mistake and Edwards should be ashamed of that.
Ryan Richardson
He died irl.
Tyler Hughes
>Ok so Obi-Wan is a literal ghost now? Why doesn't he just go to Vader to mentally fuck him? Because force ghost couldn't interact with the physical world until Disney ruined this franchise
Josiah Flores
I wasn't mad about Ackbar's death because he's a dumb meme character but fuck that's a really shitty way to give his voice actor a farewell. They really should have had him do the suicide run instead of Holdo, or given him some kind of proper send-off. Fuck, thanks for giving me a reason to be pissed about this (if it's true).
Charles Brooks
Then his final moments would've been voiced by a different person.
Juan Bennett
Just looked at Bauersfeld isn't credited for Rogue One either. Did they use a different voice actor?
Tyler Hernandez
Or just had the scene be unvoiced but still a death with dignity.
Personally, I feel like he shouldn't even be in the movie in the first place but if you're going to have him at least do something good by him, especially if the voice actor is dead.
Cooper Nelson
>except Hamill who considers his character the flawless ideal of a hero. Maybe he just feels bad about maiming a fucking animal
Cameron Morales
OP meant that Obi-Wan could continually show Vader his ass and shout in his ear every time Vader tries to take a nap.
Mason Morales
You need a force bond to see a force ghost. Jedi and Sith cant have force bonds.
Parker Jackson
I agree with most of this. still don't think Hyperspace ramming is a big deal.
But it's clear they thought up big scenes and worked backwards.
As for most of the narrative problems, I still blame JJ Abrahms for creating all these characters an loose ends with no actual answer written, then passing the ball
Gavin Martin
>Empire somewhat leaves that as possibly being a lie Not really. The ending scene where Luke calls out "Father?" makes it apparent that Luke intuitively understood their bond, which is what Vader knew would happen if Luke "searched his feelings." >Because you're not being objective. No, but because Empire still presents a thematically fulfilling story. Characters and their significance are enriched by having seen ANH, but the same is true for RotJ. The only film of the three that truly operates standalone is the original. >doesn't provide a solid ending It's an ambiguous ending. It's a good ending for the kind of film Empire is, though, which is why I find the movie satisfying. >whatever points you give Empire for "setting up Return" get flushed right down the drain right there. Sure, user. Setting up Luke's impulsiveness and injury as a mirror to Anakin's transition to Vader, detailing about the Dark Side and the nature of the Force, are all flushed away because of one other plot point it sets up. The Tatooine sequence is purposeful anyway, even if it's disconnected from the rest of the film.
Carter Sanchez
>Jedi and Sith cant have force bonds. Yoda and Dooku had a force bond, even when Dooku was a Sith.
Joshua Baker
>i hate sequels that WORK
GEE
Xavier Campbell
If they retcon Rey's parents in IX then this shit show has been all for nothing. That was the best part of TLJ.
Easton Martin
Whether it's worse than a new hope or not, I can't say, but I really enjoy the middle parts of esb. The scene where Lando is leading Han and leia through cloud city and then bam, he leads them right to death vader. And Han instinctively qucik draws to blast him like a good gunslinging antihero should. But Vader swats the laser aside like a fucking boss, and force takes his blaster away, instantly establishing control, and calmly says "kind of you to join us" or something like that. It's just darth Vader, aka by far the best character in all of Star Wars, in one of his most Prime scenes
Benjamin Mitchell
>Not really. Yes, really. As someone who actually saw Empire in theaters, whether or not Luke was really Vader's kid or if it was all a trick was contested at the time. People debated it. Jedi settles this. Without Jedi, without knowing for sure that Vader is Luke's father, Empire is a crippled movie, hence why I say it just doesn't work on its own.
>Empire still presents a thematically fulfilling story. Not on its own. It only does when you consider ANH and RotJ. It doesn't even work with just ANH, you still need RotJ to make TESB work.
>It's an ambiguous ending. It's a weak ending for any film to have.
>Setting up Things they set up after Tatooine as well. You could cut the Tatooine section and all you'd miss out is how they got Han back (which isn't much of a story honestly).
Zachary Wilson
Hello, mouse shill
Thomas Harris
Agree to disagree, I guess.
Juan Sanders
yes, it's a great moment of characterization for both of them:
Han see's vader/Stormtroopers and IMMEDIATELY draws his gun without even thinking
And Vader just holds up his fucking hand and blocks it while his Stormtroopers stand by, meaning he had to order them not to act without his explicit command before hand
Ryder Rogers
Pretty sure everything you hear in learn in TLJ is a half-truth. It'll be true that Rey's parents were nobody junkies, but like Anakin, her father was the Force.
Dominic Walker
But Anakin father was not "the Force". Anakin was a Plagueis experiment into create life using midchlorian. If they made Rey a daughter of the Force (out of nowhere) it will be even more hilarious than "his parents are nobodies".
Thomas Cox
>Anakin was a Plagueis experiment into create life using midchlorian. Your EU shit doesn't count.
Joseph Hernandez
a new hope > return > empire.
dont hate me plz my gf enjoys the ewoks
Lincoln Hill
I've never read any EU. Palpatine told Anakin during the concert.
>"Plagueis could create life from midchlorians" >In TPM Obi Wan said Anakin midchlorians surpasses Yoda
I can make 2+2.
Blake Butler
Incorrect. Plagueis and Palpatine experiment to create life, but the experiments fail, and the Force instead creates Anakin. This is the old EU, though, as the current canon is now ambiguous as to whether or not Anakin was even created by the Force.
Logan Torres
The midichlorians were never mentioned in Ep 3.
Andrew Barnes
Trolling requires intelligence
Leo Rogers
>>"Plagueis could create life from midchlorians"
What? He never told Anakin anything like that.
Owen Adams
>The midichlorians were never mentioned in Ep 3. Yeah, they were.
>Palpatine: Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis The Wise?
Anakin: No?
Palpatine: I thought not. It’s not a story the Jedi would tell you. It’s a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life… He had such a knowledge of the dark side, he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying. >Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life… >use the Force to influence the midichlorians to create life… >influence the midichlorians >the midichlorians
Why did you quote ? Your reply doesn't have anything to do with what I've said.
Angel Perry
>Asteroid field >Not absolute kino >Not best music
I know this is bait but this need to be highlighted
Benjamin Young
Because you said "incorrect" and then mentioned the EU. I didnt give a shit about the EU only things that are deducible by the movies.
Jeremiah Rivera
The fuck? I watched this in theatres, was this added later?
John Davis
Imagine being this much of a pleb
Bentley Powell
>I didnt give a shit about the EU I don't care.
Ryan Ross
>grown adults arguing and shit flinging to feel superior for barely a moment about which kids movie is better than other Beyond embarrassing
Nathan Ortiz
I've seen this scene countless times and this is the first time I've noticed him say midichlorians what the fuck?
Easton Perez
>Grown adult loses his time posting in a thread about a kid movie he didnt even care about
Whats next "beyond embarassing"?
Cameron Perry
It's not something I noticed until the scene became a meme.
Thomas Fisher
...
Grayson Myers
thats what I mean, I DISTINCTLY remember the line just being "the power to create life", and then he went on to talk about how he had power over life and death to save the ones he loved
