/po/ here, I need some real info, I was always a supporter of comics. I loved X-Men, Batman, Green Lantern, etc etc etc. The recent changes to the comic book industry have sicken me, but I notice when I try to do research on the subject Marvel & (((Disney))) desperately try to hide that diversity isn't the cause of their comic book sales.
So please enlighten me. Is the sales a fluke, did they actually ostracize their fan base, or is the market just dying with the mass pirating of product? TY ahead to anyone who responds.
Okay, there have been a few really good articles on this, as well as some in depth youtube videos.
The diversity part has been mishandled. The characters are just replacing existing heroes, and taking over in a more competent way, which makes them less boring.
The other issue is that Marvel isn't supporting their new releases with any significant marketing budget. Ms. Marvel is to blame for this, as she did well on her own, (and to a lesser extend Miles Morales did too,) so Disney thinks that all new properties can start that way.
Marvel has been sidelining or completely altering their original heroes, to the point where they're unrecognizable, which has angered old fans in an attempt to get new ones. But the new fans aren't staying.
On top of that, Marvel's writers are being very unprofessional on twitter and social media.
But the biggest issue that Marvel has is that it is releasing too many books. There are so many, that people can't afford to buy even a 3rd of them with a full paycheck. And as a result, people aren't trying new things.
Hunter Martinez
Does anyone have that page where of all things the Spongebob comic explains why the comic book industry is failing and places all the blame on Diamond?
Dylan Smith
To each point as I read them.
I can understand the creation of original characters with original stories or stories (such as X-men) where new characters can easily be brought in. No issue with this, see it all the time with graphic novels. So glad we are on the same page on this.
>The other issue is that Marvel isn't supporting their new releases with any significant marketing budget. Ms. Marvel is to blame for this, as she did well on her own, (and to a lesser extend Miles Morales did too,) so Disney thinks that all new properties can start that way. Ok ty for that.
>Marvel has been sidelining or completely altering their original heroes, to the point where they're unrecognizable, which has angered old fans in an attempt to get new ones. But the new fans aren't staying. I'd say this is my biggest contempt and I'm sure most fans agree. I can not understand why a corporation would so blindly refuse to acknowledge why this simple portion would cause disdain within their target audiences. Really this is the only part I'd think that is remotely conspiracy theory.
>But the biggest issue that Marvel has is that it is releasing too many books. There are so many, that people can't afford to buy even a 3rd of them with a full paycheck. And as a result, people aren't trying new things. At 8 dollars a pop on average times twenty+ issues per release I'd agree this would be nearly impossible to keep up with.
Well thanks for some clarification, i'll try to use these points to refine my personal research on the subject.
William Bailey
>places all the blame on diamond As well they should
Zachary Russell
Sales are falling because the writing is shit.
Marvel would rather sever their penis with a spoon than admit this. A lot of this falls on Perlmutter gutting editorial in 2012 and DC snapping up new talent. Those that are left are those way past their prime and too spread out like Bendis, those who've never written a comic before like Coates, those who put shock value over stories like Spencer and legitimately terrible writers like Slott.
Though another factor is that the way people buy comics are changing. More people are buying Trades than floppies, and digital suppliers like comixology dont release their numbers. The picture of the Industry's actual sales is uncertain because we get our info from Diamond's (Who have a monopoly on physical distribution) increasingly outdated system.
Gabriel King
>Is the sales a fluke, did they actually ostracize their fan base, or is the market just dying with the mass pirating of product? this will always be their argument because it absolves the industry from producing bad products. People buy things they like, even if they have an illegal download version they still want a real copy. Pirating tends to boost sales because it introduces new people to the product without demanding a certain amount of money up front in order to catch up to whats currently going on in the story.
Brody Hall
>I notice when I try to do research on the subject Marvel & (((Disney))) desperately try to hide that diversity isn't the cause of their comic book sales. Actually, Marvel straight out declared that diversity IS why their comics are doing poorly. They blamed it on the readers not wanting diversity.
Marvel has a lot of issues a) repeated price rises way beyond average wage increases b) few convenient ways to get comics (either buy online or diamond/LCS) c) lack of support for TPBs; they charge a lot more because they want people to buy floppies instead d) event fatigue from constant massive crossovers e) rebooting all the time for those #1 issue boosts f) flooding niches. Every time they find something that works, they immediately flood it with too many books. g) abuse of their customers. Twitter and tumblr rants, statements as mentioned above that readers are at fault for not buying diversity, etc h) lack of good writers, artists and editors. i) more efficient forms of media are available. A 40 dollar game will bring you more entertainment time than 10x $4 comics
>Is the sales a fluke, did they actually ostracize their fan base, or is the market just dying with the mass pirating of product? this is actually an interesting point, the pirating bit. You see, Marvel has had a long time strategy where they believe that a book that angers fans is better than a book that is mediocre. So angry fans = money, because they wanna see how it goes.
Now some people think that people have just become worn out by that. Been too angry too long and just given up. But given our threads on bad comics like America, I think it's more likely that instead of buying a bad comic, people will just pirate it. Why pay for something you don't like?
Ryder Morgan
It's really unfair to use ms marvel as you're strawman for this as she's one of the legacy characters who is not indiciative of the stupid pandering diversity crap you're after, better. To use Riri from the new Iron man or femThor for that
Tl;dr horrible business practices like variants, having too many books, LAUNCHING too many books (avg 6 a month from Oct 2015 to Feb 2017), trying to have all movie characters support 2 books, etc
Jason Russell
>reminder that 20k in sales is now the new 100k
Asher Morris
...
Jackson Rogers
Even femthor wasn't so bad after a while. Nowadays decent enough
Miles after Ultimate, Riri, Nadia Pym, ChoHulk are the worst offenders. ChoHulk isn't too bad in his own book, but Cho was fine before the Hulk thing. Dunno why changed him
Nah not that bad yet. 70k sales for big series like Spider-man was abysmal. 30-35k would be the new 100k
Parker Morgan
>femThor She was also a big success
Everything after other than Laura did worse though
Jackson Collins
Slott is actually good when he has an editor that can say fuck no that is stupid.
Has to be kept on a leash. His early ASM work was good, his MA and Shulkie was godlike.
Thanks for the input, you guys have been most helpful.
Fuck off Shill, you know Disney is owned by Jews.
I had a question about comics, I came to the comics board. It would be shitposting to put this on Sup Forums, I haven't had the thread deleted or myself b& so guess what, I did the right thing. Intelligent discussions are allowed across any board as long as they are topic appropriate.
TY for your input though I will take a look.
>she's one of the legacy characters who is not indiciative of the stupid pandering diversity crap you're after, better. She literally is, a brown, muslim, possibly lesbian female superhero that replaced a straight white female.
It's not strawman, it just seems that way because you disagree.
Anyways, thanks all for various view points. I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case. Which saddens me.
To slightly modiify topic, what graphic novel artist are on the up and up? All I have to go on is what local businesses sell and it's all owned by Disney for the most part.
Easton Martin
>possibly lesbian How? From how she flat out told a bisexual character that she was straight? Also >carol >straight She knocked up her girlfriend Spider-woman
Jayden Gutierrez
>is from Sup Forums - Neo-Nazi Shitheads >claims to "like" the X-Men
Sebastian Watson
>Shill Who's shilling? You're the cuck. >Jews own Disney But most people aren't raging anti-semites, you fucking weiner.
Luis Long
>I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case. Good. Now fuck off.
Xavier Nelson
It's 100% because of politics.
Non-white characters have been commonplace and popular since the 70s, so that's clearly not the issue.
Benjamin Jackson
>I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case. Which saddens me.
It's just a few books a few heroes that have this. Comics have a whole variety of non cape titles that you could potentially enjoy DC Rebirth has been solid for the most part and if you don't find that entertaining you can try out other publishers and go for writers you know you can trust.
Samuel King
but you literally are a cuck
you can't just call someone a word without considering its meaning
Colton King
You will not be missed.
He can't read non-cape titles, those have even BIGGER chances of seeing minorities.
Asher Walker
>that replaced a straight white female. Technically only the mantle. Carol didn't die or anything she just became Captain Marvel since Mar-Vell has been dead for years I understand your frustration but please if you're going to complain about stuff on Sup Forums without looking like a clueless individual consider this as stuff that you should avoid complaining about since it just signals that one who complains about this stuff knows barely anything about comics
1. Are they offended by Green Arrow's liberalism? 2. Are they using examples that are years/months old and are outdated (bonus if it's from a cancelled book)? 3. Are they using a fucking non canon Elseworld as an example? 4. Do they cite companies as a whole or writers/editors specifically? 5. Do they refuse to acknowledge that comics have been political in the past? 6. Do they assume "Western comics are dead/ruined forever" just because some cape books are doing overly preachy social justice crap?
Not trying to be rude just pointing things out
Andrew Davis
>"Hey guys Gamer Girl here!"
We're really glad you found a group that makes you feel like you belong but it's not becoming to label yourself at the beginning of a conversation.
You can be sick of marvel's retarded diversity stunts without having to state your partisan lust. Nuance can be a neat little experience if you give it a shot.
Robert Morgan
I would highly recommend checking out The Unfunnies by Mark Millar. Lots of conservative values that I'm sure you will enjoy
Samuel Wood
I wish Mar-Vell would come back. I wish legacy characters weren't even a thing.
Gabriel Hernandez
user, don't pull that shit. I know that you don't like Sup Forums and you see the recent culture wars as the decline of this board but there's reason to suggest him shit when OP here just wants to get some recommendations and information
Adrian Brown
> legacy characters weren't even a thing >No Wally West >No Zatanna >No Hal Jordan >No Barry Allen >No BuckyCap
Justin Adams
Marvel and DC have no interest in showing clear figures about sales, and the digital comics market is only an estimate so it's really all up in the air.
Nathan Ortiz
OP wants attention for being from Sup Forums more, so if he wants to be a little asshole, then might as well treat him like one. He didn't ask for recommendations, he only asked for information to fuel his culture war.
Noah Rodriguez
Well you can't deny that Millar does shill his values in that book.
Cameron Williams
Go read Cerebus the Aardvark, one of the most important and influential comic books of all time. The author is very red-pilled, possibly even black-pilled.
Jace Brown
I don't know what you are talking about. I'm just suggesting quality books here.
Jacob Hernandez
I wish they weren't a thing in Marvel I guess. Buckycap sucks, I only want Steve to be Captain America.
James Brooks
>That very eloquently written slippery slope fallacy
Colton Perry
Fantasy? Dogs and cats are kept inside people's houses RIGHT NOW.
Aiden Myers
The slippery slope fallacy isn't actually a fallacy if you look at real life.
Camden Diaz
The guy said he was from /po/ not Sup Forums. Big difference.
Lucas Young
>I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case. Which saddens me.
There's plenty of good political comics out there, cape and non.
Read Transmetropolitan. Read Ex Machina.
Read the current run of Captain America. The writer may be a IRL liberal, but he pisses off SJWs like no one else, and gives the fascist side genuine, convincing arguments instead of strawmen.
Cameron Morris
You should totally check out Sam Humphries Our Love is Real. It's about a man who believes in the traditional values of the male/female relationship fighting against a degenerate society.
Hudson Campbell
>The slippery slope fallacy isn't actually a fallacy if you look through the narrow scope of anecdotal evidence
Sure.
>Dogs and cats are kept inside people's houses RIGHT NOW.
And there are logical reasons for this before you even get close to "the fall of western civilization".
Benjamin Young
He said he's from /po/ idiot.
Caleb Walker
>And there are logical reasons for this before you even get close to "the fall of western civilization". Hey, if OP thinks that letting immigrants into our countries and letting transsexuals into our bathrooms will lead to the fall of western civilization, then why not letting in housepets too?
It's the perfect comic for them.
Joshua Moore
If you're going to recommend Cerebus recommend at least this chart
Hey OP, can you do us a favor? If you're going to complain about stuff in comics at Sup Forums please stop cherrypicking the same old images from years ago
Hunter Rodriguez
No, I think for user that chart should be reversed.
Levi Collins
>FalCap >Superior Nigga, Spencer's Sam Wilson comics are even more politically hamfisted than his Steve Rogers ongoing The Bombshells and Immigration issues being the two glaring examples
Logan Price
A slippery slope is when you claim that we should not do x (x being a perfectly benign or beneficial thing) because it opens the possibility for y (y being a blatantly negative thing).
"Sorry we can't stop those men from raping your daughter and killing you because that would eventually lead to an oppressive and absolute tyranny. The fact that I acknowledged that it's happening has probably doomed us all"
That would be a slippery slope.
Cause and effect are very real however and it's important to analyze every step you take.
Jonathan Nguyen
Sim's a Jew Muslim though. Maybe just up to Form & Void?
Ryder Gutierrez
I think you should read the comic because that quality line has nothing to do with politics.
Hudson Edwards
As soon as gay marriage got legalized in America all the other freaks came out of the woodworks. Not just the trannies but the "non-binaries" and their hundreds of made up genders and preferences that they're trying to force the rest of the population to accept.
Samuel Thompson
Sim's a Christian Jew Muslim. All three at once because he thought out a way to make a unified Abrahamic religion in his head
Josiah Hughes
I'm saying user's a shit and deserves shit.
Gavin Wilson
>As soon as
No you just live under a rock.
Colton Nelson
I don't understand why they don't team Cho up with Herc again. Does Pak not want to write it?
They have a great dynamic. Did it not sell?
Ayden James
Sup Forums has decided that #NotAll Jews and Muslims are bad, so it's okay to like the ones that Trump likes.
A bigger issue would be that the author is Canadian.
It doesn't matter anyway because OP lacks the willpower to read something as long and complex as Cerebus.
Samuel Cooper
It's many factors -Too many Diversity characters at the same time and not many written well. It's okay to have some diversity (look at X-Men) but Marvel went overboard and alienated their fanbase. Steve Rogers as Hydra sold more than Sam Wilson. Kampala started off interesting but Marvel mishandles her popularity and put her in Avengers/Champions and constant events. And no one wants Mosaic. And then you have America... -Too many number #1s and relaunches. -Too many Events (and said events are usually terrible) interrupting books. -boring creative teams (Slott is still on Amazing Spider-Man and will never leave) -prices too expensive. Paying $5-6 bucks for a book is annoying. But then you have $10 annuals where they don't even feel like they are worth the price -books no one asked for (Mosaic, Solo) -disguised minis because Marvel is too afraid to admit their minis (Slapstick) -literally Forcing retailers to pay for books they did not order because Marvel shipped it to them and is making them pay for said book (Mosiac). This causes damage to LCSs who in turn get annoyed at them. -too many books for people to choose from -movie synergy/influence aka "Look how awesome those Inhumans are! So much better than those smelly X-Men!"
Thomas Hughes
user Sup Forums isn't a place of shitty people. It's just full of passionate people who just jump to conclusions At least OP is willing to learn from this board and actually wants a better understanding of comics which makes him better than a good number of Sup Forums users
Jace Lopez
>Replaced
Inly bexause Carol got a promotion. You can still read Carol's books, she's fucking EVERYWHERE.
Hunter Garcia
>OP >open mind >"I don't really think i'll be getting into comics again if this is going to be the case."
Jason Parker
>She literally is, a brown, muslim, possibly lesbian female superhero that replaced a straight white female.
For some reason people around here give her a pass.
I mean, if you read the first time she met wolverine...and thought 'this is good and i want to continue reading this comic' i don't know what to say
Christian Jones
>user Sup Forums isn't a place of shitty people >He honestly believes this If I could go back in time and kill Moot before he reinstated /r9k/ and created Sup Forums, I would absolutely take the first-degree murder charges for the team.
Ryan Hall
No
What, you mean for the like six issues before Slencer got his mutts on him? You're still wrong, Brubaker's run is Primo A+ Cap material whether Bucky or Steve, but I could respect that opinion. But post Spencer? Fuck no.
I love the idea of Captain Falcon but the execution has been shit.
Jaxson Lewis
>better understanding of comics which makes him better than a good number of Sup Forums users If someone comes to Sup Forums and asks for recs I will gladly give them, but if someone comes in shitting on characters they've never read for dumb reasons then they can fuck off.
Luke Martinez
So anyone who decided they don't like something doesn't have an open mind? Wouldn't that include you?
Carter King
>Sup Forums isn't a place of shitty people. >passionate people who just jump to conclusions ah just like terrorists.
John Sanchez
stop
writing
like
this
you
nigger
faggot
Jace Powell
Not the Sup Forumsack but he's right. I don't ever recall hearing anything about trannies, gender fluidness, etc. until these past couple of years. I'm 32 years old and I had not idea about trannies until a few years ago, that one tranny character in Silence of the Lambs was my first exposure but for the longest time I just thought he changed his genitals and was just a guy with a pussy cause he's supposed to be a total freak.
Gavin Brown
I've never been to Sup Forums but most of the time people who spend all their time bitching about it are way worse than they are. OP made a reasonable request for more information and people are mad because of one line where he identified his home board.
Christian Hall
There's a little difference of scale. I don't like a board, they don't like an entire medium.
Well, actually, they don't like a few titles at Marvel and DC. Based on hearsay, not on actually opening them up and trying them. They're not even aware that the rest of the medium exists.
Landon Hill
Stop
Forcing
Your
Dumb
Meme
Joseph Hall
Then you also live under a rock.
My cousin went FtM in like 2002 and he's far, FAR from the first. The rights movments for this shit ALONE date back to the 70s.
John Carter
That's not true though, the thread didn't jump on him until he acted retarded
That may have been in case he really was from /po/ though.
Christopher Torres
>people are mad because of one line where he identified his home board. And the parts where OP started posting Sup Forums memes (Oh noes, DA JOOZ!) and calling people shills.
And the part where OP decided that they won't read any comics at all because Ms. Marvel's presence in comics saddens and disheartens them.
Ian Stewart
>OP made a reasonable request for more information and people are mad because of one line where he identified his home board.
People treat him as he deserves because he just wanted to get fuel for his fights and wanted to use a medium we're actually passionate about as his new tool.
Carson Scott
>why are you guys mad that someone is talking shit about stuff they've never read
Julian Ortiz
>posting Sup Forums memes (Oh noes, DA JOOZ!)
Not even a Sup Forums meme. That was a thing on this site before Sup Forums existed
> and calling people shills.
Not sure but I think this one started on Sup Forums
Christian Torres
Papercrafts and origami??
Jaxson King
>32 years old Ah, you're just a kid then.
I first heard of LGBT* in the nineties, but I've been aware of T issues since the Stonewall riots.
Mason King
That's the funny part. They realized trannies already had their rights so all they could do was push for bathroom access, which if they could pass they already had. They jumped on the TQ in LGBTQ once regular gay people got their way. But these people already have their basic rights, so all they can do is make problems up or bring up social issues that can't be fixed with legislation.
Anthony Kelly
Every day on Sup Forums people complain about the same things OP complained about but suddenly it's a problem when someone from Sup Forums does it
Juan Ross
This.
Easton Price
I also complain when people shit on things that they haven't read, even if it's not just because the person is brown.
Thomas Sanders
How long have you been on the boards in general? If you accept Sup Forums's persistent cross-boarding to be the norm than I can see the backlash appearing disproportionate. However, there was a time where we had less generals and you could talk about a show you like without having to discuss to what level it was racist or degenerate. If you consider those times to be the better state of being, then anyone insisting on inserting their politics/group identity into a context where it's not crucially relevant would sensibly be met with rejection.
William Sullivan
Why are you bothering me with that irrelevant blather?
I'm correcting your mistaken assumption about why people don't like the OP. It doesn't matter if they're posting Sup Forums shit or Sup Forums shit because they're still posting shit.
Jose Brooks
Yeah those people complaining about the same things are also shits and a problem.
Owen Diaz
>They blamed it on the readers not wanting diversity. This was just Marvel deflecting, blaming their audience for being too old fashioned and set in our ways. It was just another way for them to claim more progressive points, "our comics are too progressive for the backwards market" bullshit.
Marvel's diversity is a symptom, not the disease. The real issues are shit writing and shit art, shitty to non-existent editorial and bad business practices all around, going straight to the top. Marvel will never admit it, because it's easier to blame DC and their own audience than to take a good long look at themselves and acknowledge why they're failing.
Your post is on point, though, particularly in how Marvel isn't adapting to an evolving sales market. Marvel's trying to bleed the speculator's market for everything they've got, and that market was artificially created to begin with thanks to Marvel's business practices from the early 90s. Constant #1s, event fatigue, over-saturation, inflated pricing, an overall lack of professionalism, these are all serious issues that go well beyond simple "our readers are trogs that can't handle diversity". Marvel needs to acknowledge that, but they won't.
Bentley Lee
Any time someone says "I don't like Ms. Marvel, therefore I won't read any comics at all", they deserve to be mocked.
Adding Sup Forums memes to their posts is just the icing on the cake, showing that they're just pushing an agenda instead of actually being passionate about quality.
Lucas Kelly
In those days the Marvel writers weren't beating you over the head with identity politics. What is everyone supposed to do, pretend it isn't happening?
Mason Nelson
Marvel's beaten people over the head with politics since they made Captain America, or Spider-Man if you really want to ignore that.
Josiah Hall
The truth is American comic books have been competing with manga ever since Toonami popularized the medium, and they are on the fast track to disappearing the moment comic book movies hit their crash (and it's going to happen considering DC's movie track record and Marvel either finishing up or people leaving once they realize their big Infinity series is a tired mess). It's no surprise that the only two significant comic book companies are Marvel and DC. Marvel caters to a brand new demographic that doesn't even care about comic books while their former dedicated fanbase are leaving in droves and/or growing up and not caring about their favorite characters (even though many of them have been killed off or are a former shell of what they used to be). Meanwhile, DC has essentially turned Batman into their Sonic the Hedgehog, making three theatrical movies involving him and his universe last year, all of which were terrible, embarrassing, or both. Image is dead, as is Top Cow, and most artists are opting for doing webcomics instead, preserving their IP as their own. Meanwhile, this all started when people realized they could get the alternative from manga; a medium that gives you more stories for your money (I did the math, and one volume of a comic book having six issues in one book costs double the amount of a manga that may have 8-10 stories for up to $4-6 less) no ads unless they are all concentrated in the back of the manga, if any, and the only downside is most manga is in black and white. That's it.
Overall, the diversity bullshit Marvel and to a lesser extent DC are doing is a last ditch effort to win back any audience, and it will bite them in the ass in the end. Pic related; just one of their many failed ways to even try to compete.
Connor Long
The official story is that they wanted to do something different with Hulk, because they felt the same Bruce stories were getting stale. They already knew they wanted to change things up with a different character in the role, and Cho was brought up as a character to use.
It's actually one of the few Marvel diversity legacies that makes sense, and in his own book was handled pretty well, even if it wasn't exactly needed for either Cho or Hulk. It's his appearances in other books, mostly Champions, that are fucking awful. Though, to be fair, everyone's garbage in Champions.
Lucas Cruz
I said identity politics though. Main thing that comes close is X-Men and unlike OP I always thought they were lame
