>Old Man Logan essentially shows the realistic outcome of what a Legion of Doom team could accomplish were it not for Status Quo Is God. Once they ditch the goofy gimmicks and campy schemes, they realize that by sheer numbers they completely outnumber the world's heroes, and make short work of The Avengers, Fantastic Four, and X-Men.
Thoughts, Sup Forums? Are there really that much more villains then there are heroes in the Marvel universe?
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I feel if it's fuck status quo rules, you'll see some hereos, especially during that age of Marvel, equally throw out restraint and go for the kill if the villains were going to play that level of hardball and considering some of the heavy hitters, you'd probably still have a messed up post apocalypse world but not with all villains running the show
What about OP heroes like Franklin richards? He could wish every single one of them out of existence
This.
All you need is for someone on the level of Thor to say "Fuck it," and a third of the villains could be wiped out in a few hours.
Yeah, I know.
how is it any more "realistic" for the Nazi to team up with the holocaust survivor and no hero being able to set them against each other?
>Status Quo Is God
Lay off the tvtropes.
And, no, it's inaccurate garbage. Magneto killed off by some punk because "bitch got old"? Pure edgewank.
>the realistic outcome
>Dormammu, a dimensional demon set on conquest, teams up with mortal idiots to tip the scales of their petty spat in their favor and then simply leaves without explanation so Millar doesn't actually have t deal with the consequences of explaining the setting outside "Bad Guys won, things bad now".
>Thoughts
I think you didn't think this through.
Also, no. The X-Men are just one group of mutants, it's repeatedly shown there are more mutants who'd side with Xavier or at least don't agree with Magneto at the end of the day.
Largely because Xavier actually uses his wealth, resources and influence to make sure the common mutant is raised, educated and taken care of and not only used as soldiers and then forgotten about. The X-Men handle that stuff.
Furthermore SHIELD is heavily resourced, AIM and Hydra are imposing to be sure but they're also constantly setback whereas SHIELD is only ever further supported and funded. I'm not even going to bother going into the extraterrestrial allies the heroes have made.
What's wrong with TVTropes?
It's fucking awful.
Exactly. If the legion of doom went to far, superman would go all ultraman and it's instantly over. Thor, Vision, plenty of guys could end a league of marvel villains if it really went that far.
Why? It's helped me get a better understanding of storytelling. I feel like you guys would be all over that shit.
I wouldn't say it's true. There are tons of heroes out there too it's not AS black and white in numbers. Not to mention OP heroes and in that villains have differing goals. Ignoring that Magneto probably wouldn't just sit back and let Red Skull get too much power and probably throw a massive monkey wrench in the plan when he rushes to kill him at what he sees the most opportune time. Then there are villains who are just run of the mill criminals who would have issue with letting literal monsters run the world.
Also the civilians themselves wouldn't let that happen either.
No, it hasn't.
You might think you have, but you've just been given handy titles to your laziness.
It was fun a while ago but all I was doing was autistically reading off trivia. All it really does is point out cliches, I don't feel there's really a whole lot of understanding to be gained. And then there's the autistic userbase.
This is retarded. All the villains want something, the fuck would they band together when most of them hate each other.
As someone who doesn't read a lot of Marvel comics, what's Magneto and Red Skull's relationship like, anyway?
One was a Nazi and the other is a Holocaust survivor, you figure it out.
>what's Magneto and Red Skull's relationship like
They worked together once, then Magneto betrayed him for obvious reasons and left him sealed in a room to die.
There was push and pull between Claremont and pretty much everyone else on Magneto reforming or staying bad in the 80's, Claremont lost in the end.
You begin to get some 4th Wall Overview, but then it becomes Encyclopedia Dramatica, with its own set of terminolgy.
But for some reason more people enjoy ED over TvT, despite both of them using the same formula to educate
That's because ED is actually funny.
Trivia only goes so far.
>>Old Man Logan essentially shows the realistic outcome
No
Nice.
What are some other holocaust survivor comic book characters?
I don't particularly mind it, but it does get fairly cringeworthy right-quick, especially in the "Funny" and "Awesome" pages.
Also, they're highly SJW.
...
yup
>especially in the "Funny" and "Awesome" pages.
You're not kidding.
tvtropes.org
>The "Super-Villain Shuffle". A guy as white as Doug shouldn't be able to pull off rapping, but it ends up awesome.
This is what they were referring to:
No, Old Man Logan is what happens when you give unlimited control over the characters to an edgemaster with a burning hatred of superheroes.
>Magneto defends himself from an attack by a nuclear submarine, killing the crew in the process
>this is literally just like the holocaust
horseshoetheory.jpg
Not the same guy, but honestly I just like reading some of the examples in the pages for tropes. Occasionally it's helped me find new things to read because a particular trope I like is in it and then I look at the synopsis of the actual story and it seems cool.
So I look further into that.
Like in the old days I'd occasionally get into series because I read a crossover fanfic between something I knew I liked and something I'd never heard of.
On the subject of a 'realistic' outcome, I've always wanted to see a setting where the police and military are actually useful if only by weight of numbers, training and resources available to them.
Like, the heroes are good for the utterly bizarre and implausible but even then; civilian organizations can still stand up.
Well part of the problem with something like that is not all villains have compatible aims. Some are petty crooks, some are mutant extremists, some are anti mutant terrorists, and half a dozen want to shape the world in their own image and I doubt they'd take kindly to someone else stepping on their shoes. Still others are people that essentially think they're on the side of good but use more extreme means to accomplish their goals. In short it's like throwing a bunch of cats in a bag and expecting them to work together to find a way out. Hero alliances only work because they have clarity of purpose.
>it's helped me find new things to read because a particular trope I like is in it and then I look at the synopsis of the actual story and it seems cool.
This is literally the only reason to use that awful site.
Has there ever been a Nazi villain who was more into low-tier villainy. Just after money or something like that and actually regrets working for the Axis but still remains a villain?
Y'know, not a full repenting of their past, but acknowledging that in that particular instance things went beyond the pale?
Isn't that basically what SHIELD is?
>Are there really that much more villains then there are heroes in the Marvel universe?
Yes but most of them suck (seeing how they often team up against a single hero and lose) and those who don't have no reason to trust and work with others because of their agenda.
Also there are things in the Marvel universe which makes the Earth villains look like jokes. They would kill the heroes ok but then who do you call if some new kind of Galactus is hungry?
Also what would they do if the heroes friends were to come and avenge them? (Asgard, various alien races...)
That being said, this has been done before, it's just that in the alternate timelines the heroes don't have their Plot Armor so of course they die or are turned into zombies or whatever.
>defends
You're sorta omitting why they attacked him in the first place.
If you get to that point, Punisher would probably level Hydra on his own. It's funny because, yes, there are a lot of villains, but there are a shit ton of heroes, and some of the major heroes can wipe out a lot of the minor ones. And even then, you won't get all of them on the same side. Why would Magneto ever team up with Red Skull?
That'd probably be filed under "Nazi-apologizing". Racism is pretty much a capital crime as far as villainy goes, nowadays.
>Knight Templar concept as written is a pure tvtropes invention
>frequently fail to elaborate on examples so pages become bloated lists of tropes
>trains users to become autistic robots who just checklist tropes as they consume media
>has several pages that aren't fucking tropes like Hey It's That Voice
hating on tvtropes has itself become a dumb circlejerk
So that's where this came from.
>Implying Franklin wouldn't just snuff them like a flame in a storm
You'll summon the call to bid his dark work, you fool!
I kind of wish it had another bubble that said "Silly old Bear"
Nah, the second bubble needs to be bigger to fit that in. It should be "Well, there's no God here today. Just me, silly old bear."
Injustice was basically this.
>Why would Magneto ever team up with Red Skull?
to get las vegas
I liked how people cite status quo as a reason the villains don't win, as opposed to the reason they don't get killed by heroes or by the justice system after being caught the first time.
That's not accurate to how things went down in the book, it was a huge surprise attack overnight. It wasn't like a "fair" showdown, hell Logan was trick to kill all the X-men, it's safe to assume similar dick moves were pulled on the Avengers, Thor, Hulk and what not, I seriously doubt they had enough warning to react properly.
yurp, irl Red Skull, Dr.Doom, Abomination, Magneto and many many more would have been fucking dead before their 5th appearance.
>Doug dubbing himself over Malcolm so he can do his shitty Joker impression
Gets me every time
It was a fight, they were sailors, Magneto won. Choose your rate, choose your fate.
The volcano thing would be more comparable to the Holocaust, but comics rules so magically the evacuation was 100% successful and no one died in the process of relocating an entire urban population without notice.
Red Skull is full of shit, as he always is.
Yeah, that's why it was "the day" they attacked, rather than "the lengthy period of time".
Pretty hard to fight back against everything happening all over the country at once.
Possibly. How effective are they at their work, though? Honest question. I haven't ready enough comics where SHIELD takes a major role.
It was basically the intended purpose, but the fact that it has almost no quality control fucked it over in the long run
What about that time Magneto hijacked nuclear weapons?
Ahh. I suppose that makes sense. I was mostly thinking moreso villains who take the view of 'I'm a bad guy, yeah, but holy shit GENOCIDE!?'
BPRD, Hellboy.
It seems to do everything better than Big 2 shit.
There's a ton of less popular heroes who don't have a rogues gallery or fight another heroes' badguys.
There's also heroes that share badguys a lot of the time like Spidey and Daredevil.
So no there aren't that many more villains than heroes.
>A fight
In the most technical of terms
It's just basically Millar taking his idea that he was using in Wanted and Marvel Knights Spider-Man (and sort of, in a JLA story he did) again and applying it to Wolverine.
1. Wouldn't Odin drop the boom on whoever killed his favorite son?
2. How the hell would they all work together?
3. The moment they start playing hardball with the superheroes is the moment the mutant telepaths team up to lobotomize them while Reed shoots supernovas at them from a negative zone sniping point. Holy god just imagine what Dr. Strange would do if people started to kill his friends.
Fuck this scene, apparently in the trophy room scene, Ghost Rider, Silver Surfer, Nova, and Dr. Strange were part of the final stand.
I'm not saying Magneto dindu nuffin, I'm saying he hasn't done anything on par with caging and murdering millions of civilians; he hasn't even done anything on par with the bombing of Dresden or the nuking of Hiroshima.
Red Skull is making a false equivalency.
The intent is what's key though.
Red Skull is right in that Magneto is a Mutant Supremacist and occasionally humors Human extermination. Even attempted it.
What was up with all the Marvel writers and the Submarine incident anyway?
It kept coming up during Magneto's first reformation.
I would never have heard of The Dresden Files otherwise.
3.To be fair it was a surprise attack in a single day. I'm sure the heavy hitters were the first to be targeted.
Come to think of it, a lot of villains would be considered Domestic Terrorists and Doom would be tried by the Hague for international crimes...
Don't forget Nightmare Fuel pages. That's where the real cringe is.
To be fair, what else are you going to do with nuclear weapons BUT kill millions of people?
It's also the only place that concisely catalogues neat little bits of trivia and behind the scenes stuff that I wouldn't know otherwise.
Because I guess it was a pretty shitty thing to do.
Put it like this, a Criminal sets up a bomb somewhere in the city. Says "no cops". The cops being cops, send cops to stop him. They're ridiculously outgunned and the criminal basically disarms them and leaves them incapable of doing jackshit to him. All without even leaving the comfort of his lair. Then he kills the cops anyways, because he said "no cops".
Threaten to kill millions of people.
Damn that's fucking dark. What run is this from?
Millar's Old Man Logan.
>I'm not even going to bother going into the extraterrestrial allies the heroes have made.
Yup. Pretty sure Silver Surfer could fuck every bad guy's shit up in the blink of an eye.
True. But to make it a credible threat, people have to believe you're willing to and capable of inflicting that horror.
Like the time he briefly created world peace by sharing a fragment of the Power Cosmic with everyone on Earth?
It would only work if they were the protagonist, and were completely disgusted by the atrocities and did what they could to help the victims. After the war and Nuremberg, no one on earth was going hire someone who was knee-deep in that pile of shit, so they turn to petty crimes to survive. One job stealing from a lab that goes wrong later, and they have a minor power. After a stint in Jail, they come out and have to return to crime, but give a portion of their gains away as "The Atoner". There, still a "villain" put a reasonable one that you wouldn't feel bad about. Make them keep their villain cred by working with real assholes like Kingpin or whoever, maybe even as a contract killer who won't kill civilians (AKA non mobsters/heroes).
Most of the villains wouldn't do it. Most just want some easy money and validation. Overthrowing the government and murdering potientially would cause a few to be rats. Also I imagine that Pym, Thor, Tony, and a few others would just go ape on them.
Would you risk it?
That's why nobody really cares when North Korea threatens to nuke something.
But if America was to say they were gonna nuke something.
Well, shits gonna hit the fan
...which was terrible in every way. I don't know why so many people are on Millar's dick about it.
...even if the villains somehow managed to fuck up Earth and kill all the heroes, and somehow none of their friends came for revenge - the first time Thanos or Galactus or Annihilus comes a-knocking, Earth is toast without the heroes.
Smart villains don't kill heroes, because you can't rob banks if Tyranticus the Ever-Inflamed decides to use the Earth as a suppository.
Magneto is a racist and an egomaniac, but he's not genocidal. Even when he took over Santo Marco and had dissenters jailed, he still allowed regular humans to live and work as citizens.
In fact, part of why he wants him and his mutants to rule the world is the idea that they could end world hunger for everyone.
The USSR never nuked anyone, but the USA obviously thought their threat was plenty credible.
It's a "What If" scenario. What if every villain went along with it? what if they planned out and organized and got the drop on the heroes of the world?
It's not meant to represent an easy or likely scenario, it's an extreme alternate history version.
>Fuck this scene, apparently in the trophy room scene, Ghost Rider, Silver Surfer, Nova, and Dr. Strange were part of the final stand.
>semi-immortal heavenly weapon that can OHKO most villains by just looking at them
>Silver Surfer being Silver Surfer
>Nova's debatable, was probably in the trophy room just for the cool helmet
>the freaking Sorcerer Supreme before Aaron decided to shit all over his powerlevel
I don't really see a problem with that.
>...which was terrible in every way.
Debatable. Sure, the story had many issues when you take canon into account, but on it's own, it was pretty good. Otherwise, why would it get so many fans, when it's not even entry-level?
>nightmare fuel pages
>almost all of them aren't even scary or exaggerated as fuck
>rare chance something described is legitimately scary
> but on it's own, it was pretty good
Fuck off, Millar
> why would it get so many fans, when it's not even entry-level?
Because most people have terrible taste.
Oh and it is entry-level. It's Hush-tier.
That... actually sounds like it could be pretty cool.
That's why I wrote it.
>no one on earth was going hire someone who was knee-deep in that pile of shit
That's where your idea breaks down. Those Nazis who didn't go to Nuremberg had a pretty easy time finding employment after the war.
It'd be better to make them a French collaborater. The big fish in the Vichy regime were able to take care of themselves, but the small fry were treated like absolute shit by their neighbors once the country was liberated.
>i'm better than you so i'm going to make you suffer before you die
That works better than the idea I shat out in a couple of minutes. Former French collaborateur he is. The name he leaves at the charities he gives cash to is "The Atoner", but what's his real name? Jean Pierre Lamrack St-Ives? Called JP by his few friends and Mr. Lamrack by his "employers"?
Adding to my own post, his powers are immortality via (very painful) regeneration and a psychic backlash attack that causes those who hurt him to feel his pain, with a burn on his face from the lab accident that gave him his powers (a la the "mark of Cain").
>he hasn't done anything on par with caging and murdering millions of civilians
Not yet anyway.
That was almost immediately retconned because it was so completely out of character.
Magneto was off chilling while Xorn pretended to be him and went Hitler.