Which side was in the right?

Which side was in the right?

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Tony. The government was going to force cap and the other heroes into it one way or the other. The only way to get through it was to concede and then try to work the system from the inside. Cap realized that too but got pissy over Wanda being held in the Avengers base.

Both were right, but both Steve and Tony fought for the wrong reasons. Tony was wrong because he was overcome by guilt instead of good judgment, and Steve was wrong because he was more concerned about Bucky, the last remaining thing from his old life

Wonder who they are going to blame once Thanos strolls into town.

Probably Steve.

Can anyone explain to me again why black widow and hawkeye are part of avengers even though they're regular humans without Batman massive intellect, peak human strenght or billions of dollars?

Iron Man, in all, movie and both comic CW

Neither is right. One is on top and the other is on the bottom

Technically Iron Man plans in the comic would end superheros in the long run.

Widow is there for tits and ass, Hawkeyes is there because he's one of the only decent actors in the cast.

black widow is their espionage specialist

as for hawkeye, why not? he ended up on the team by circumstance and there's no reason to kick him off. he's not going to bankrupt them buying arrows.

>Cap realized that but got upset over extrajudicial punishment of someone whose actions hurt a few while saving many when the entire solution they were proposing was intended to limit their current practice of extrajudicial punishment without oversight
Yeah what a whiner.

No ordinary human can shoot a bow like Hawkeye. Dude's a super, no question.

Me, for not bothering to buy into this fucking tedious claptrap.

Conservatives will say Stark.
Liberals will say Cap.
Those who have common sense will say, Heroes fighting is lame as fuck and we are sick of it.

>we
You spergs need to stop lumping everyone else into your posts to act like it holds more weight for your opinion

>Can anyone explain to me again why black widow and hawkeye are part of avengers even though they're regular humans without Batman massive intellect, peak human strenght or billions of dollars?

Combined power level 9,800 is more than combined power level 9,000.

They are both a little sneaky, widow can disguise herself, and getting an arrow somewhere super accurately is occasionally useful.

Some of the audience are men in their 40s or later who don't look at porn very much, so the fantasy of a fit, young white woman with red hair in tight black leather makes sex with their wives more enjoyable

Fucking this

Tony obviously. If you're little superhero battles start killing the same innocent people you're supposed to protect then you have failed and need to be put in check.

I'm a liberal, I think Tony was right, I don't want people who can destroy cities dicking around the world fucking shit up without the slightest oversight why the fuck would I?

The side of the viewer, because they got a great film

Shouldn't it be the othe way around?
I thought liberals wanted government control, and conservatives didn't.

>CW
>great
Pfftttttttt hahahahahahaha

Both side's normal people want what's reasonable, which is less and certain places and more in others. The upper tiers of both sides want more and get more.

People with powers existing =/= ducking around and destroying things willy nilly
This is same logic as gun control people. Powers don't kill, people kill.

Inately Stark was right, how the comics go about it was "pants on head " retarded.

I think the only reasonable people are the ones who can see that both sides are wrong the the people inside are either manipulating others or being manipulated Themselves
Any legislation that limits your freedom is in direct opposition to your happiness and in favor of people who want control over you
People are just stupid enough to think they are the ones in control just because they voted for someone and tweeted a lot, you are never in control you morons, the people in control whoever they are have the opposite intentions to you
>Vote for me and I will make gender neutral bathrooms and create massive amounts of debt to control the population forever and ever
>Vote for me and I will make guns legals and also invest too much money into military expansion that can only sustain itself through war
Same fucking shit
Both of sides are full of stupid fucks

cap'n was right. Stark was too busy being the government's lap dog to see that they were all being manipulated.

Cap

>government was going to force
How, exactly? With their own team of superheroes they didn't actually have? The Avengers had a monopoly on super people, they could name their terms, or none. Because it's not like the Earth has any other option.

But Cap was right about Bucky, he was innocent. How can you be responsible for your actions when you have no agency?

Widow's a spy, not every contribution has to be in open combat, and did you see the shots Clint was making in Avengers?

Staunch conservative, Liberals are scum, and Cap was right.

That's on Tony's head, not the team. The team didn't make Ultron, he did.

CW was amazing.

Innately Stark was wrong, Peter revealing his identity the way Stark wanted got Aunt May shot.

Captain America was gorge Bush jr

I haven't watched it yet, but I'm going to guess Cap.

And it shocks you that a liberal would like it if the people with powers had more oversight to prevent them from killing and punish them if they did?

The avengers had a former sidekick of ultron, ultron's baby robot, hulk, the brother of the guy that attacked new york, two guys involved in political killings, and some American soldiers.


Fuck them

On the one hand accountability is great.
On the other hand we'd just gotten proof that the government agency in charge of this shit was being controlled by double nazis from day one, and the lead figure behind this legislation not only funded the Hulk, but Hulk 2 Bigger and Crazier.
It's the same as how they thought it'd be a great idea to register in the comics but oops they're registering with Norman fucking Osborn.

So it's actually the same problem as the comic; registration can't be trusted because the people running it can't be.

None, one is on top the other is in he bottom

For sure Steve.
Sure the whole Ultron mess is on them, but I find it disgusting that the government tries to blame them for the rest. I mean c'mon, would they of rather had New York nuked like the WSC wanted? Would they of rather had Hydra kill millions of innocent people in one second? Would they of rather had Crossbones explode down on the ground where there were even more people who would of died. It's just stupid.

...

liberal and conservative are not mutually exclusive, you're thinking of authoritarianism

What where they fighting about?

International oversight.
Steve's faction was against it, Tony's was for it.

Tony stopped being right when he was okay with Ross running the show.

I should have made my joke more obvious

Okay, Spock. What was the punchline?

How the whole conflict got sidelined and how forgettable it was

Oh. I suppose that was kind of a funny joke.
If it was forgettable, there wouldn't be this thread.

Tony.

I believe there are no easy solutions here, and neither party is completely in the right. There is clearly a need to hold the Avengers accountable if they fail, yet it may be truly impossible for them to prevent any civilian casualties from occurring 100% of the time. While deaths caused by negligence would need to be dealt with, no-one should be punished for trying to do the right thing, but not being able to save everyone.

While some regulation is necessary, the Accords would seem to be unworkable in their current form. Does every participating nation have to agree before the Avengers are allowed to take action? Even if a majority vote is required, it could be too late by the time authorisation is given.

With governments and civilians having turned against the Avengers, there does seem to be no way to simply get rid of the Accords, so the best solution may indeed be to change them from within, to draw attention to the unworkable aspects, and the unnecessarily punitive measures.

I have a theory that openly defying these laws and fighting against the authorities will only make things much worse for everyone, and make it much more difficult for the Avengers to continue to operate as a team.

>I have a theory that openly defying these laws and fighting against the authorities will make it much more difficult for the Avengers to continue to operate as a team.
Gee, gosh, you should share with us how you came to such a stunning revelation Reed Richards. Moron.

cap, you cant hold heroes responsible for things out of their control when the governments wouldnt even have a chance at dealing with any of the things that happened in any of the movies other than the nuke it scenario, its also funny how the UN willing to go after the heroes but cant even handle a single villain

In the end, Tony broke the Accords to go to Siberia and hunt Zemo against Ross's wishes anyway, proving that not even he truly believed in his own side. I think Rhodey was the only one in the movie dumb enough to think putting the UN in charge of heroes was a good idea and not just going along with it to avoid a bigger conflict.

Cap was right about both the accord and Bucky

pretty much this, Cap was right every step of the way, with the one exception being he had never sat down and told Stark how he had reason to believe his parents were murdered.

It's a valid concern that the Avengers could use with some oversight, but the UN is not the organization to do this. Assuming the UN is the same as it is in real life, it's an organization with Saudi Arabia (a country that beheads people for sorcery and women are treated like property) as the head of the human rights council. Also, the UN seems to be incapable of keeping their "peacekeepers" from raping everyone in sight wherever they go.

And putting all that aside, the Sokovia Accords were really vaguely explained, and the characters barely spend five minutes talking it out with each other before they decide to go to war with each other.

this is a false dichotomy even in countries where you are allowed to own a gun you are not allowed to police that country without permission from its government

also keep in mind they had this 1000 page tome dropped in front of them that they were expected to sign immediately. It's a movie, there's time skips, and shit, but still, it never really seemed like anyone had a chance to read the thing cover to cover.

Also there's no fucking way the UN drafted this thing after the Nigeria attack. They were probably working on it since Ultron or more likely even before that and decided to wait for a politically convenient time to spring it on the Avengers.

But if they were working on it that long, and somehow no one even knew it was in the works until the scene in the movie where Ross drops it off, that means they were intentionally suppressing news of it, like the US government did with the TPP for years.

TLDR the UN in this movie was NOT to be trusted.

>That's on Tony's head, not the team.

Tony is a port of the team and while i do not believe that the government should be allowed to control super heroes on the level of the Hulk and Thor I definitely don't believe that superheroes should be allowed to police my community without my permission.

Cap.
Tony was just dragging everyone into his guilt trip and putting in place a system he was already planning on skirting constantly but would just leaven the Avengers with more obstacles.

Airport security.

>the only way to beat the government is to roll over for them

statist get out.

>Cap should have given up because the government would have made him anyway

Found the Hill Shill.

Isn't Steve the only one the audience actually sees reading any of it?

Because comic book normal human is not real life normal human. No real human could do all the things Black Widow and Hawkeye do.

>Conservatives not siding with Cap

The modern right is closer to libertarianism than modern liberals.

>Need to be put in check
>By the government who drone killed way, way more innocents than Scarlet Witch could ever dream of killing.

Yeah no.

>Not telling the giant manchild whose last big toy nearly killed a country that Bucky killed his parents

I don't blame him.

I think so but there's no way he had time to read it all unless supersoldier serum gives him speedreading powers

Cap didn't actually know Bucky killed Stark's parents, he just had a strong reason to believe Hydra was behind it.

BROTHER MY BROTHER

>By the government who drone killed way, way more innocents than Scarlet Witch could ever dream of killing.
We're talking about the United Nations, not just America. The theme of all this is how many people can you blow off, how many governments can you avoid and still consider yourself the hero?

>Tony is a part of the team
And they opposed making Ultron so much they actually started a fight to stop him from making what they thought was the same mistake twice. And they weren't policing anything, they were responding to threats that conventional forces weren't equipped to handle. How would the military have stopped the Chitauri? How would SHIELD? Oh wait we know, SHIELD tried to nuke the city, and that wouldn't have done anything because the barrier around the portal generator was self sustaining and unbreachable.

In AoU they were dealing with something Tony started, and before that they were taking down Hydra. In WS Cap found out about a plot that would have killed tens of millions and stopped it, then dismantled the agency that had unknowingly sheltered the enemy, and stepped in to fill the void in international security. Which ended when Wanda accidentally killed a few people, in order to save ten times that number. People getting pissed over that makes sense, she had recently been a villain, but every single incident Ross bitched about was either better because the Avengers intervened, or completely Tony's fault. Stark is the ONLY ONE who should have been obligated to sign the accords.

>UN Security Council

Oh because they're SO MUCH BETTER right? Let's have China and Russia weigh in on what the Avengers can do! What could possibly go wrong?

The question is do you trust the Avengers or the UN more and if your answer isn't the Avengers you're high. The Avengers have a far better track record at protecting the world, a much smaller body count, and are far less corrupt than the United Nations.

You might as well put HYDRA as the Avengers' overseer if you want to put the UN over them.

hawkeye is shit
youtube.com/watch?v=5hQlY0aK4kY

This.

Stark's fuck ups mean he deserves to have someone watching over him like a nanny. But Steve not only proved the governments of the world can't be trusted to protect people from stuff like HYRDA but proved that he actually CAN.

They should have made a piece of legislation acknowledging Steve as in charge of the Avengers and put him in charge of keeping Tony in line.

Cap and friends should have gone full Authority, crashed a UN assembly, and told everyone to behave.

Superheros aren't the ones that need to be watched. Governments are.

It's a difficult situation. Ultimately there were no good options for the Avengers.

I suspect the Accords were much more lenient on the wholly human Avengers. The UN and governments regarded Wanda and Vision as WMDs.

There needed to be accountability, but the system implementing it was deeply flawed and open to abuse.

The problem with defying the Accords or following them, is it obviously makes both factions of Avengers a busted flush; they can't move freely and they can't act without the danger of being arrested or killed.

No matter how powerful you are, it's hard to function in this world if governments are on your ass.

Which Stark would regularly ignore, because he pays for everything and he thinks that means he's in charge.

Lumping all the Avengers together in the accords was exactly the kind of full-retard planning the UN does in real life.

Does Tony and his fuck buddy the jolly green giant need to be watched? Abso-fucking-lutely.

Does Steve and not-Carrie who accidentally killed fewer people than a wayward drone strike? Fuck no.

What were they going to do about Thor? He's a warrior prince from a far more powerful civilization. And you want him to what, have lunch with Putin and friends before he goes and fights evil magic elves or whatever? He's so far above the jurisdiction of earthly authority its comical. He's not a citizen of any country. No one has legal authority over him.

The correct option was to laugh and tell Ross to piss off, because the MCU is not 616, there are not hundreds of other super-people they could call on to take the Avenger's place. And again blame falls on Tony, we KNOW he's the only one who knows for sure about Ross's beef with Banner, because Stark is the guy who talked to Ross at the end of the Hulk movie. Did he not think that was a relevant point, that Ross has a personal reason to hate the Avengers due to their association and acceptance of Banner? Sounds like something he should have brought up.

There only "needs" to be accountability when you don't trust people to make the right choice. Which again means only Tony should have had to sign.

From a purely factual point, Tony failed because he didn't adhere to the rules he was advocating. The moment Ross blocked him from going to Siberia, Tony broke the accords by going anyway.

Fuck off, Steve has no right to illegally enter other countries and for his team to smuggle weapons

>Holding a guy who kicked the shit out of a corrupt and infiltrated government agency that was seconds away from nuking portions of America responsible for a playboy manchild's disastrous science experiments.

This is why the accords were obviously nothing more than a power play by the UN to people paying attention.

>Steve needs to ask permission from the government of shitbadistan to beat up the Hydra remnants hiding there

Why the hell wouldn't you trust Cap? Hasn't the poor bastard proved he's more trustworthy than whatever bureaucratic jackass would try to get him to sign papers?

That never stopped SHIELD, or did you forget how they recruited Banner? And the bad guys don't respect borders, or did you forget the automated hellicarriers they were going to kill 30 million people? Do you think it's worth letting the world end because of lines on a map? These are not political wars, these are Armageddon level events.

>portions of America
Portions of the PLANET. The hellicarriers were going to cull the world's population, not just America's.

matter of fact, they're quite dependent on sociocultural context - what's liberal in america can be conservative in sweden, and sometimes vice-versa

i only use them for social context - you know, the gays, freedom of religion, stuff like that

God, the "Hydra is everywhere" storyline really fucked the MCU over when it came to depth. We can't even talk about the objective morality of this situation because everybody is convinced that Hydra is in charge of the UN.

>Why the hell wouldn't you trust Cap?
Because his superhero name is Captain America? How do you think literally everyone else on Earth feels about just that. Some self righteous lab experiment going around pretending he's Jesus Christ.

The guy made some misleading wording, dont have to be a dick about it, Jesus

Kek all of those threats havr the avengers including Nick fury as the people to blame.

>illegally enter other countries
yeh those imaginary lines really keep people out, twat

>So there's this guy who fought not-Nazis during WW2 and saved the world from them.
>The governments of the world were so good at fighting the not-Nazis after the war that they totally cucked the largest spy network on the planet.
>He saves the world from them AGAIN.

>But you know what? I don't trust him. I need to have politicians hold him at legal gunpoint so I will KNOW he will do the right thing because his sidekick accidentally flattened some civvies during a fight with those not-Nazis.

Who the fuck wouldn't trust Cap over the politicians at this point?

They don't have to be in charge. The real world UN has China and Russia on their security council. They're corrupt enough as it is.

And in universe its pretty damn clear governments suck at dealing with super hero problems.

Because his judgement is objectively right, because that's what's been shown in literally very movie so far.

>He saves the world from not-Nazis twice
>But I hate him because he's American and proud to be American

This is why Europe deserves everything happening to it right now.

Really? The Avengers invited Loki to invade? They let Hydra infiltrate SHIELD?

>And Bucky

Nah fuck off Cap.

Bucky was a real threat who is still brainwashed. That's not something that goes away.

Cap should have made the governments sign an accord with The Avengers.

And in his team he has several killers that killed politicians in other countries, Wanda, the sidekick of ultron and vision a robot created by ultron.

>Tony and his fuck buddy the jolly green giant

You wish, buddy.

You and me, together.

Loki only came to earth because of his brother, and the aliens came to earth because of Nick fury experiments of guns.

He didn't save the world, he saved one American city from. Being bombed in the same way Americans bombed Asian and European cities. And more. Important. An American soldier has no right to kill people inside the boarders of my country. Steve doesn't respect the freedom and self determination of others.

never said he wasnt a threat you twat he wanted him brought in alive to find out why he is the way he is and help him

And neither of those things have anything to do with the Avengers, because they didn't exist then. SHIELD was experimenting with the cube, and Cap got rid of them, and ODIN is the reason Thor was on Earth, blame Loki on him if you want.

Do I have to remind you that the tri-carrier had defenses against almost anything that any kind of superhero could throw, nevermind the fact that had Cap not found out the truth about the ship and how to stop it, the damn thing would have been unstoppable?

Besides, considering one of the guys who were Hydra was part of the Council that almost blew up NY, Hydra would have taken over the world quickly.

Freedom isnt free cuck.