WB Animation are a bunch of shitweasels

scoobyaddicts.proboards.com/thread/4595/official-return-boomerang-streaming-service?page=4
>Eh, people were getting used to the animation and look of it. That wasn't the problem. WB made huge mistakes right from the beginning (including the look of it, which was there before Zac and I arrived - we pulled it back from being even worse). We needed the more cartoony look for the comedy, which people began to understand as they gave it a chance. The real problem was that WB and CN didn't give the show a chance, didn't trust Zac and I to just make the show we knew we should make, so they interfered way too much early on - which, when they saw it was a mistake, held up production and made me rewrite the first 8-10 episodes from scratch (1-3 days a piece instead of 4-5 weeks a piece, which is normal) and wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars. They hired "Phieas & Ferb" guys and then didn't trust us to know what we were talking about when we said "THIS is how we made "Phineas," THIS is why it was a hit."

>hen, they couldn't suddenly admit they had been wrong, so they blamed all the hold-ups on me and Zac and we never really caught up until near the end of first season - while we still actually to manage to make a bunch of really great, fun first season shows. By second season they stopped getting in our way as much (that was their version of admitting they were wrong - by leaving us alone more). We made a great second season, until they saw how great it was, then they gave someone else all the credit, fired Zac and stuck me, creatively, under a non-writer who thought they were a better writer than I was. Everything went downhill from there. Nobody who had anything to do with the creation of that show or what made it great was rewarded (I was never made a producer on the show) and they almost acted like if the show did catch on and become a hit, then they'd have to give me and Zac credit and lose face for having never trusted us, so they buried it out of ego.

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>Whatever. I hope you all see second season (and they didn't destroy it) and I hope you like it. I'm just really pissed off now that the streaming service is here and has also totally blown it. What a waste of time and money.
Thanks, Doo - Just to clarify, they didn't exactly "fire" Zac, he walked off in disgust because WB allowed certain crew members to take too much power and get too much credit because they played politics, were at WB longer and were WB's "pets" - so they could o what they wanted and had the top brass' ears, into which they whispered how they could do a better job than Zac and I. Zac is one of the nicest, fairest and most egoless people you'll ever meet in Hollywood, who is also one of the most talented. Usually those two don't go hand in hand, but somehow Zac makes it work. He's an saint of a guy - and absolutely brilliant. That kind of style is just not in keeping with WB's current managerial style, so Zac appeared "weak" and the water was chummed and the sharks attacked. Every move they made was a creative mistake for the show, but if an arrogant jerk suggests it, WB believes it MUST be right! Zac just got tired of fighting against a machine that clearly didn't respect what and how he was doing to make a great show, so he bailed. I was Zac's second in command - I was the head writer, story editor and uncredited co-creator/developer of the series.

>It would have been natural, since even WB considered me "the voice of the show,' to promote me to producer and allow me to have some creative control over what happens AFTER the scripts were complete (important things, like being in voice records to make sure the lines I wrote were delivered correctly, etc), but no, once Zac left, I was NOT demoted, I just lost my direct line to the top of the creative power structure and the people who took his place thought THEY knew better, so I was basically left in my office churning out great scripts without any control over making sure they were executed correctly like I had with Zac. If Zac wasn't sure about something in the script, he'd walk in my office and ask me what I meant. That stopped happening and board artists and directors were given permission to rewrite at will - most of the time for stuff that they wouldn't have rewritten had they understood what the intention was or what the function of it was in the story structure. They all really talented artists - but none of them are trained writers.

>Animation (especially kids animation) is made up of a bunch of artists who went to art school and they're brilliant, trained artists, not writers - which takes JUST as much training and practice. It's the old cliche - EVERYBODY thinks they're a writer because words on a page look like words on a page - unlike ART, which you can tell when someone has gone to school and is trained and learned the craft of drawing and animating. They all think, "I'm funny! I can write this!" without having any idea what there-act structure is, what character arcs are, how to create character driven comedy, how to structure and build a story and keep your character's voices and action unique and individual to that character. It's all just so common in Hollywood. The WGA is about to go on strike again because the studios and producers don't want to give writers the tiniest, little bit more (in fact, while Hollywood is raking in record profits, writer salaries are going down). It's the oldest story in the book (ironically, because "books" need writers).

Dude sounds a bit egotistical, but he's got my sympathies. Imagine all the shitshow stories we don't know about because of NDAs.

>I'm sorry to rant, here, folks, and I'm expecting to get a stern letter from WB telling me to shut up, but I'm so sick and tired of haven been treated like crap at that place, being basically out-right told they didn't want me there - BUT - they couldn't do the show without me, so they'll grudgingly let me stay because the show if funny and no one else seems to able to write it correctly. I'm sorry, but we made a GREAT show and if everyone who had the power had done the right things to give the show a good chance of finding an audience, they would have had a hit Scooby Doo show. I don't care what any of the "haters" (God, I despise that word) say. BCSD was the a great funny show with great, well-rounded characters that would have caught on and would have one day been considered one of the top 3 best Scooby series of all time. There's no way of knowing now. They sunk it, instead. Lord forbid Zac and I were right all along. Sorry, I'm having a grumpy day. End of rant.

>Thanks for the kind words, as always, Doo. Technically, Zac wasn't fired, but they tied his hands and made it impossible to do his job, so he left.
>I also wasn't "demoted," as I remained story editor until I left, but the person who took over for Zac took me out of the loop - so I couldn't make sure the scripts were being executed properly once completed or be in the room when there was a creative problem to help solve. BCSD was a very script driven show and very difficult to write - even for many brilliant veteran writers. But people tend to assume writing is easy or anybody can do it. They fail to understand that the amazing animation artists became that good because they went to school for it, practiced it, worked at it for years and learned their craft - and the same thing applies to writers. They mistake "being funny" or being able to come up with funny ideas as "writing," which requires an understanding of character arcs, act structure, plot points, pacing, etc, etc. The problem is if you took a trained artist and a non-trained artist and asked both to draw. Any layman off the street could look at both drawings and guess who the professional artist is. If you did the same with a trained and untrained writer, the layman would see same thing when he looked at what they produced: words on a page.

>Everything goes to shitter once some people start stroking their egos
goddamit, why this kind of shit seem to always happens in entertainment/creative industry?

>I've heard much of second season turned out well. I imagine the problems will begin towards the last few episodes after Zac left and then they put me on hiatus when I finished the last script and completed production for 6-7 months without ANY writer on staff at all. Hopefully, they'll drop the rest of season 1 and all of season 2 on the streaming service (or anywhere) soon. There's so much great stuff I'm excited for you guys to see it.

>Butthurt writer upset he didn't get promoted to Producer

Writers are the least essential part of the animation process. He needs to check himself.

>BCSD was the a great funny show with great, well-rounded characters that would have caught on and would have one day been considered one of the top 3 best Scooby series of all time.
He's right, fuck Cartoon Network

ehh, giving the whole bullshit with Young Justice cancellation because business higher ups didn't though to of selling toys to girls I wouldn't be surprised if this was at least 90% true.

>>It would have been natural, since even WB considered me "the voice of the show,' to promote me to producer and allow me to have some creative control over what happens AFTER the scripts were complete (important things, like being in voice records to make sure the lines I wrote were delivered correctly, etc), but no, once Zac left, I was NOT demoted, I just lost my direct line to the top of the creative power structure and the people who took his place thought THEY knew better, so I was basically left in my office churning out great scripts without any control over making sure they were executed correctly like I had with Zac.

Okay, first, if you can't draw then you have no business trying to be in charge of an animation production.

And second, if he's such a great fucking writer then he should have been able to get his ideas across in his WORDS and not worry about the boarders misinterpreting or failing to understand his intent.

Sounds like this whiny faggot couldn't draw OR write.

t. wb exec

What a shitshow. I bet it's what happened to Bunnicula too. Fucking morons had two hits in their hands and couldn't even stop jerking each other off for two minutes to realize it. Hope Warner Animation crashes and burns. What do they have anyway? Titans? Lego?

i wish lego wasnt so stupidly huge it could just keep them afloat on its own

TTG. How fucking fitting

Oh fuck off

This is why animation will continue to be viewed as a joke while TV live-action enters a golden age every other decade.

Someone needs to send this to every SU boarder on staff.

Why?
What does SU have to do with this?

Did you even read what I quoted? Are you not familiar that SU has no writers, only board artists who think they can write?

SU doesn't have writers and the story is through storyboard artists.

>Did you even read what I quoted? Are you not familiar that SU has no writers, only board artists who think they can write?

Are you dumb enough to think this is unique to SU and SU alone? Animation has always been storyboard driven.

>Animation has always been storyboard driven.
Western animation, maybe.

>Show has zero creative slapstick
>Action scenes are often characters just running and sword spinning, sometimes with a dutch angle
>It's impossible to convey expression through words!

Gee, I wonder how humans have managed to write stories up until this point when they were being severely limited by just words.

Storyboard driven primarily works when you're doing gag cartoons, not world-building story arcs where characters are suppose to develope over time.

Also, about half of the cartoons airing right now are script-driven.

Except SU does have two head writers; Ben Levin and Matt Burnett.

>Venture Bros, a show that's consistently high quality
>SU and every other CN show they mention, shows that have acclaimed episodes few and far between
but, hey, who needs scripts, right?

>I worked on a show that was script driven and probably one of the best cartoons around, and not just for cartoon standards
>But it's very hard to convey emotion through script even though Ven Bros did it just fine

As one of MANY people who were put through the WB Animation meat grinder, they are currently the worst studio to work for. They put one of the directors from TTGO to take over scooby, someone I've had to deal with before. OP probably wasn't a dream to work with himself, but ass kissing gets you further at WB than actual talent. It's not a secret I'm the industry.

Even if they exactly what VB did there's no way it would get the same results or the same reaction.

VB is one of those cartoons that only exist every once in a blue moon. Cherish because there'll probably never be another one like it.

>Steven Universe has a lot of visual jokes
it does?
>stylized action sequences
I have never seen an SU action sequence go off model for style, ever
>specific character expressions
who?
also, how is any of this stuff not scriptable?

No.
It has story editors who write out a loose paragraph describing the general sequence of events that happens. "Steven goes to the Donut Shop. Lars and Sadie are fighting and Lars storms off. Steven comforts Sadie where she vents to Steven all the problems Lars and her have been having." Stuff like that.

Why would you assume that everyone on Sup Forums cares about SU, SUfag?

Why is it live-action can churn out a critically acclaimed show once every couple of months but cartoons can only seem to do it once every five years on a good decade? Is it purely because of the quantity factor?

Why do you feel angry if you don't underestand a reference to another production immediately upon it being mentioned? If you don't know why it's relevant to SU, why not just ignore the post?

People don't care about animation.
That's pretty much it.

As someone hoping to work in the industry one day, do you think that if someone gets a job there, they should pass on it, or is the bad experience still worth being able to put it on your resume and gaining job experience?

Aren't you supposed to be working on "Cans without Labels" John?

Why bring up SU at all?

>Why do you feel angry if you don't underestand a reference to another production immediately upon it being mentioned?
Quit the projection, I asked why you assumed everyone cares about your show, user.
>If you don't know why it's relevant to SU, why not just ignore the post?
Because I wanted to know why you would expect knowledge of SU's production would be commonplace.

>who?
Any episode by Raven Molisee and Paul Villeco.

But the people who DO care about animation care about it a shit ton, and a lot of the quality is still average. Even someone like Alex Hirsch who constantly says, "We never thought we were writing a kids show, the concept never came up in the writers room" immediately doubles back during the Weirdmaggedon finale and goes, "People expected too much from a kids cartoon" and use it as an excuse for lame writing when it's convenient.

so was BCSD actually a good show?
I never actually watched it outside that promo from a couple years back with the flashlight gag that went on for too long and wasn't impressed

A foot in the door is still a foot in the door. There are still some great artists working there, but even some of the old timers have been looking to leave, it's the clowns running the place that are the main problem, and they threaten artists who think of going to the union for unpaid hours and harassment. As with any job, if you are being treated poorly it's ok to find better work elsewhere.

>I bet it's what happened to Bunnicula too
I watched a random episode of Bunnicula and it sucked. But it was a pet-only episode and I'm not sure if that's most of them.

Was kind of surprised that Bunnicula didn't talk too

he sounds like an egotistical brat but he does make valid points. in any case, what did you expect writing for a shitty product like scooby doo.
this is weird because im 90% sure some crew member uploaded the lion 3 script

Here's what an average SU outline looks like (it also looks akin to outlines seen on other shows, like adventure time)

ben-levin.tumblr.com/post/136910783230/message-received-outline

>But the people who DO care about animation care about it a shit ton, and a lot of the quality is still average

A vocal minority who don't have the resources to make the dream projects they want.

Sausage Party is the closest we'll get to people taking animation seriously.

Do what you can in terms of making a good product and work there to at least get something on your resume. Most employers want people with experience and for a would be-coworker to have an inkling of what their job would entail. And to see if the person can get along well with others.

ok so, what they write is a chain of events, and the storyboarders just write the dialogue.
That doesnt make it so bad.

(OP)
This guy's a writer? His composition is garbage.

despite the art style is was alright if not your standard scooby-doo fair
the best parts was when they were taking the piss out of the usual scooby-doo formula

I'm baffled to this very day why writing and having a good writer isn't seen as important to a show.

well that looks better. Too bad Sup Forums is just gonna post ian´s ignorant ass statement

>This is why animation will continue to be viewed as a joke while TV live-action enters a golden age every other decade.
You remember tv shows in the 90s? Especially TV shows that wanted you to take it seriously?

I can't remember ONE of those shows that was worth a damn.

Bunnicula is a board driven show whose main writing staff (including the showrunner) consists of artists in the first place

>tv live action enters a golden age
>garbage like walking dead and GOT are your examples
sure buddy

It was alright.

Not completely terrible but nothing spectacular either. I think a lot of the backlash comes from A. The FG/Brickleberry artstyle and B. Coming off the heels of Mystery Inc.

Is this why people hate Ian now?

>Sausage Party is the closest we'll get to people taking animation seriously.
No it was not. The thing was made by a bunch of stoner idiots who wanted to make a retarded movie fort kicks, and used underhanded tactics to make it cheaper by screwing over animators.

That movie wasn't a serious foray into mature animation.

Batman: Animated Series.
Superman: Animated Series
Daria
Gargoyles
The Critic
Hey Arnold
King of the Hill
Duckman
And if you want, Courage the Cowardly Dog, which had a lot of moments that weren't just comedy but good Aesop's Fables morals.

>Never listed examples
>Projects them anyway to look right

Whew. I'd take Stranger Things over Gravity Falls or Over The Garden Wall any day.

So you see what I meant by "closest". And I use it very loosely.

Sadly, thanks to the critical and commercial success the film experienced, this is what mature animation is expected to be from now on.

>literal 80s bait
go back to Sup Forums faggot

Not an argument.

But Be Cool Scooby Doo WAS a bad show full of terrible written characters.

>Over the Garden Wall
Nigga...

Animation used to be almost entirely script-driven. It only changed in the last decade or so.
>Also, about half of the cartoons airing right now are script-driven.
That's BS and you know it.

Gravity Falls is the best cartoon ever made, and I will continue to stand by that statement. OTGW, yeah that's just shit.

Loud House. We Bare Bears. Gumball. Teen Titans Go! Milo Murphy's Law. All the Marvel and Star Wars cartoons. Most of the Dreamworks cartoons on Netflix.

That's a big list already.

...I meant live action series.
You see how the post I quoted says live action? And I make the note to say TV Shows? Not cartoons?

I'm talking about shit like Viper and Mortal Kombat

Why would you remember stuff like Viper over stuff like X-Files, Twin Peaks, Sopranos, Roseanne, Seinfeld, or Freaks and Geeks?

I really didnt read your walls of text, but that pic looks like a cross between Seth McFarline and China

...I like OTGW and Gravity Falls.

Personally I don't find either show comparable in any sense.

>Shitting on OTGW
Eat shit

Probably because I hadn't seen the majority of those.
I resend my statement.

>Gravity Falls is the best cartoon ever made

Sir, I'm sorry to inform you of this but Batman, The Animated Series is the best cartoon ever made, and the subsequent shows made by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm just add to them.

Gravity Falls is a brilliant cartoon, probably the best cartoon of this gen... but the best ever?

Nah.

The entire DCAU is a joke compared to GF. Capeshit in general is deeply overrated.

>ian´s ignorant ass statement
which is?

though it should be noted that Matt Burnett and Ben Levin are also artists (just not on SU itself, outside of Ben doing some additional boards on Last One Out of Beach City)

Unless you're writing a story or article. Only autists care about composition on the internet

Wirt is a very poorly characterized Dipper, and Greg is a very poorly characterized Mabel. (And you could argue the same for Beatrice and Stan, to some degree.)

There are other parallels as well, but those are so obvious it's ridiculous to say the shows aren't comparable.

I don't really get the comparison. There are tons of shows that feature insane characters next to normal or serious ones. It's common enough to be a coincidence.

Also the shows have two completely different directions, stories and themes to represent. Sure, there is a main villain but the protagonist's problems are caused mainly by their own progression into "the unknown" as they call it, darkness or what have you.

Gravity Falls is a reactionary tale. Things happen to characters and they react back to them. Creepy shit happens, they deal with it. Bill happens, they deal with him. How it's told is more akin to an adult series on HBO or AMC which is what I like about it. It's a drama on its own in its second season.

So really, no. I don't find them comparable. OTGW is more of an experience, journey-like show. Gravity Falls is more of a mystery, investigative show. Both premises are completely different, as are the antagonists and situations, and I find neither show terrible and everyone should see both of them.

No one compares things because they're exactly similar 1:1.

Both shows feature a kid duo going on paranormal creepy adventures in the forest. At some point, the main boy kid is revealed to have a crush on a girl who ends up being a big motivation for whether or not he chooses his love interest over helping their sibling. That's enough to compare whether you like the direction of one or the other.

Shit was doomed from the beginning, even without executive meddling.

Shit's like trying to steer a sinking ship into port when it's in the middle of the fucking Atlantic.

>for shows since 2010

>WB Animation
>Board Driven
Bunnicula
>Script Driven
Literally everything else (even Teen Titans Go and Wabbit)

>Cartoon Network Studios
>Board Driven
Adventure Time
Regular Show
Secret Mountain Fort Awesome
Uncle Grandpa
Steven Universe
Over the Garden Wall (though episode 9 was scripted)
We Bare Bears
Long Live the Royals
Mighty Magiswords
OK KO
>Script Driven
Ben 10: UA
Generator Rex
Symbionic Titan
Robotomy
Problem Solverz
Ben 10: Omniverse
>Some in-between where the outlines are script like, the boarders have more input than on script driven shows, but less than on board driven shows
Clarence (earliest episodes script driven)
Powerpuff Girls reboot
Ben 10 reboot

>Disney TV Animation
>Board Driven
Fish Hooks
Mickey Mouse
Star Vs
Billy Dilley
>Script Driven
most other shows

>Nickelodeon Animation Studios
>Board Driven
Sanjay & Craig
Harvey Beaks
>Script Driven
Everything else (including post-2nd movie spongebob, even though classic, the movie, and post-movie were all board driven)

You're forgetting a lot of Netflix toons there. As well as adult cartoons.

>(though episode 9 was scripted)
No wonder that was my favorite episode, by far.
Do you have sources for all this BTW?

>Gravity Falls is a brilliant cartoon
season 1 was good, season 2a was probably the best, but after that it falls apart
the art style sucks & falls into the calarts shit & has stupid anatomy

most of the protagonists suck. Mabel is a selfish jerk who walks on others, Soos is a retard, Wendy barely gets any time to be good, so that leaves the Stans & Dipper. Dipper is a pretty good character, but it sucks that he doesn't get to actually achieve anything he wanted after finding the author. Ford is a great character in concept (great voice actor, awesome premise, tons of buildup, even a good backstory), but in practice he really sucked. like Wendy, he doesn't really get a lot of screen time for characterization. take the fact that he apparently has a backstory where Bill used & manipulated him, that can easily be written for various plotlines or conflicts. in practice? they barely do anything with it other than Ford knows not to trust Bill. Stan, lastly, is probably the best character. he has a full character arc & actually learns from past mistakes. he starts off as a selfish jerk & goes through all kinds of hell to help his family

the antagonists are pretty good at their best (some of Bill & most of Gideon, & all of the shapeshifter), but everyone else is ultimately forgettable

>probably the best cartoon of this gen
if you mean of the 10s, probably not. I've honestly seen better on all 3 networks within this decade, but that's my opinion

it's from who's credited as writers vs who's credited as boarder

also one of the writers on episode 9 (Cole Sanchez) is also one of it's boarders, so maybe it's actually a mix rather than pure script driven?

the only board-driven adult cartoon I can think of is season 5 of Samurai Jack (the original was also board driven), while the only board driven Netfix Dreamworks show is Home

Season 2b was brilliant, and you're a dickhead who spouts outright lies about the show (and has egregiously shit taste to boot).

oh and for sources for Clarence, nuPPG, and Ben 10:
Ben 10 gives the boarders "additional writing" credit, Clarence (which doesn't give the boarders writing credit) we know due to various crew member statements, and nuPPG (which gives the boarders "written and storyboarded by" credit) is from how the non-boarding writers get "writers" credit instead of "story" credit and someone claiming to be a former boarder on neogaf complaining about the scripts they were given

We laugh but Pencilmonkeys ACTUALLY believe this

season 2b was kinda meh at its best
2a had an air of mystery where you didn't know what Stan was doing, you didn't know who the author was, you didn't know what Bill's planning, etc
2b begins with answering all of that flat out & the only real mystery for our mystery show is "how will Bill do it", which they kinda dropped the ball on. I can think of maybe 2 episodes that kinda ended with it, maybe 3 if you include the one where Ford explains how he's keeping Bill out & gives away how he dies in the most retarded chekov's gun I've seen in years

the finale is also really shit. part 1 is alright & I like how everything's gone mad max, part 2 is shit, & part 3 felt rushed as shit in some areas (Ford meeting McGucket after years), went in reverse in some (Pacifica is a cunt again), & was just plain bad (Stan's "great sacrifice" only lasting for like an hour of his life)

Writers are the only part of an animation crew who really matter to the final quality of the show.
So I'd say they're most essential.

>I'm baffled to this very day why writing and having a good writer isn't seen as important to a show

Because there is a huge feud between artists and writers within the animation industry.

For the majority of animation's existence, there were no scripts and no writers. It was gag driven, as in the artists would come up with ideas they wanted to draw and go straight to boarding with them.

Script-driven animation became a thing in the 70s when Katzenberg reworked Disney's animation studio (having come from a live-action film background and knowing little about animation). Saturday Morning cartoon's and the assembly line production also created a stronger culture of script-driven animation, which eventually became the norm with gag-driven stuff the rarity.

So there remains a bitterness among artists, who feel that someone who doesn't know how to draw should not be calling the shots in an animated production. Just read anything by John K. to get an idea of how nasty the attitude toward writers can be in the animation field.

They'll never get along.

And that is why they'll never descend into the top tier anime realm.

>So there remains a bitterness among artists, who feel that someone who doesn't know how to draw should not be calling the shots in an animated production. Just read anything by John K. to get an idea of how nasty the attitude toward writers can be in the animation field.

Chris Sanders (Lilo and Stitch guy) also hates writers and did a satirical children's book all about how worthless they are. He used the assembly of an airplane as an analogy to why including non-artists in a production that requires artists is idiotic.

>The writer likes planes
>He doesn't know how planes work and has never built one before, he just knows that he likes them and that makes him qualified to lead production.
>The writer tells those who actually know how to make the plane how to make the plane and will not understand why his demands are impractical or impossible, because he does not know how planes work.

The animation industry existed for 50+ years before writers started taking over in the 70s. It can get by without them.

That's just how the internet, and more importantly message boards, work.

Not like anyone gives a shit about that sort of thing.