Well, it finally happened...

Well, it finally happened. Marvel SJW's crusade has gone far enough that it is starting to touch the other side of the Universe. John Byrne agrees with the Marvel editor blasting oldfags.

And Who is this guy?

John Byrne one of old classics of comic book writers and artists

literally whos?

That is correct. He is however more of a meal ticket

Anyone who unironically supports Marvel's empty editing department deserves the rope.

Wacker is the guy who ruined Cosmic Marvel and Loeb's replacement as head of shitty Marvel cartoons.

Byrne is a has been writer, co creator of Kitty Pryde, and an angry little man who even disliked Jack Kirby of all people.

how long you're a fan shouldn't mean anything if both groups are legit fans

>spent decades pandering to a greying audience"
>every decision since the early 2000's has been nothing people want
The only people pandering to the old audience is DC and they're doing way better than Marvel. You can't even call it pandering when they're just making good stories for everyone to enjoy rather than forcing a big meaty agenda down people's throats and taking a moral highground for it.

>inb4 "muh market share" faggot shows up

>Taking John fucking Byrne's words to heart.
Literally an autistic lapdog.
Saw him taking off his human mask in a restroom once.

Wouldn't it make more sense to market mainline comics to dads who want to share these stories with their kids? They're more likely to have disposable income than a bunch of dried up feminists.

You know, when I said I wished we had less confirmation bias fallacies in the world I didn't mean I wanted it replaced with more fucking "No True Scotsman" fallacies.

John, is that you?

John Byrne is the guy who thought it would be a fun story idea to have a mind-controlled Superman and a mind-controlled Barda star in a porno together. Yeah, that actually happened in the 80's. He also had his own comic, 'Next Men', which depicted an 11-year old girl being artificially inseminated in a shockingly graphic way, her legs up in stirrups with the body of a doctor blocking the the explicit bits. He also wrote and drew many, many issues of She-Hulk which give off a decidedly creepy vibe. I love cheesecake but his shit is just cringey.

So, in other words just another lonely, socially isolated pervert comics creator from the 70-s-80's who couldn't keep his fetish fuel out of his comics, just like his best bud Claremont.

>"barn door" feel
Freedom-hating foreigner here... what?

A customer base composed mainly of middle aged men with money doesn't sound cool to Marvel. They'd rather have new age feminists even though they don't have nearly as much disposable income.

Could it be that the things the old farts want are also the thing broad general audiences want? That it's not really so much "pandering" as providing a quality product that will keep people coming back decades later?

...

wow, sure are a lot of SJWs on Sup Forums today

I think he means "shutting the barn door after the horse got out" which is pretty self explanatory

Wait Byrne disliked Kirby? Why?

Isn't he responsible for Avatar the last airbender?

Why is it that when crybaby fucks like op get blasted on twitter or tumblr they come bawling on Sup Forums like toddlers with a skinned knee? Grow some hair dow. There and piss off

Anyone who actually cares about twitter fights should fall on a knife

>decades pandering
What reality is John Byrne living in? Marvel's thing has been that they're quick to sell out their old audience in favor of a new one, there's even a comic panel that references this that's occasionally posted here.

NO you stupid cuck

Its not everyday you see a word lose all meaning but man its like a monthly occurance here.

Kirby got tired of Marvel getting rich of his creations and demanded a fairer deal. Byrne sided with Marvel, which lead to Kirby depicting Byrne as a spineless eunuch in one of his comic books. In retaliation, Byrne had Superman and Big Barda (which Kirby created as a representation of his wife) make a porno flick in one of his comic books.

>Saw him taking off his human mask in a restroom once.
It was Dobson underneath, wasn't it

>He also wrote and drew many, many issues of She-Hulk which give off a decidedly creepy vibe
come out to your parents not us

People here will assume you're speaking metaphorically.

>You can't even call it pandering when they're just making good stories for everyone to enjoy
>DC
>Good stories
DC is a continuity mess. And no, I'm not defending Marvel, I'm shitting on both because they're terrible for different reasons.

This desu.

Classic Marvel characters don't sell comic books with the exception of Spider-Man

You can say what you want about the new wave of comic books, but they'll sell better than a book about Bruce Banner or Hawkeye or Thor. Marvel won't even give Fantastic Four a book because nobody likes them

>You can say what you want about the new wave of comic books, but they'll sell better
sales figures are not supporting you here kid

On the one hand, I agree that pandering to die hards is a waste of time. I have no respect for seniority in pretty much anything.
On the other hand, I don't think most of the oldfags complaints are wrong, and if the stories were actually be written well they wouldn't be making much noise at all except to gloat in the eternal console war that is American comics

Can we get a sales comparison? I don't know, this seems sketchy.

He's full of shit. Fantastic Four sold more just prior Secret Wars than almost everything Marvel is publishing now

>I have no respect for seniority in pretty much anything.
Why is that? Do you believe having experience is bad? Irrelevant? Do you believe someone with no experience is inherently better?

I don't feel negatively towards seniority, I just don't have any positive impressions either. Being in a place or position for a long time means very little to me; certainly not as much as they always feel entitled to.

>shitting on bryne's she-hulk

Get out.

Y-yeah this new audience sure is helping matters

*overships books*
*makes a thousand variant covers*
*creates disastrous relaunch*
*shits out another event*
*drums up twitter drama*

Wow, that's a truly vicious dis. Sorta jaw-dropping actually... Yeesh.

>not knowing Byrne
Maybe you should stick to Sup Forums, kid. It's probably a bit more your speed.

Holy shit get off Sup Forums and read some goddamn comics

Yeah, Wacker is a hack and he worded it in such a way as to purposefully get people angry, but the sentiment isn't wrong. Just because someone has been a fan of something longer doesn't mean they're a bigger fan. The degrees of fandom is how much you like something, not how long you've liked something.

You're right about the porno and about Next Men, but what's wrong with She-Hulk?

He also wrote and drew a shitload of classic, definitive comics. And discounting Claremont with "lol fetish fuel" is stupid as fuck.

It's an expression. "Close the barn door after the horse has bolted." It means trying to stop something from happening after its already happened.

if he was Sup Forums he'd have heard of Byrne

they're big fans of pedos over there

pedo or not, Byrne has a point: comics, like anything else, will only continue to sell if they attract new audiences - people who may not even have been born in the last century are now coming up to the point that they're making financial decisions for themselves and having children of their own in large number

if you want them to buy your products - for themselves or their kids - you need to make them attractive to new demos, because

i mean do i really need to explain this to you fucks

do none of you have parents

were none of you ever forced to listen to your parents' favorite music even tho it was objectively shit

what counts for sales is money, not some nebulous concept of loyalty

brand loyalty is indeed a real thing, but if it gets in the way of sales, it's worthless

more specifically it's usually used to express a sentiment that something which has not happened is now inevitable, and any action taken to prevent it is too little, too late

He was the artist for many of those 'fetish' comics for Claremont. Clearly, both of them knew all about that market

Not really. His only truly remarkable work as a writer is his run on FF. His Man of Steel is hit and miss. Next Men, Generations and Wonder Woman were pretty terrible and his Spider-Man reboot was laughable. He was an amazing artist at some point, but as a writer, he has left very little mark in the field.

The "cape comics need to attract new audiences" meme has been going on for two decades now, yet I'm pretty certain that there are plenty of readers under the age of 40. Kids are a lost cause and likely never coming back, but you can blame that squarely on price.

>Someone who's been reading Marvel Comics for 5 decades is no more of a "fan" than someone who's been reading for 5 minutes.
This is true. However someone who's been reading Marvel Comics for 5 minutes is more of a "comics fan" than someone who never picked one up a book in their life and never will

How is America selling?

>but you can blame that squarely on price.

It's not just price. Comics can be a pain to just jump into. They need to find a way to address this. Sure, with something like GoT you can't just jump right in either. But at least if you go watch GoT with some friends you know where you can go if you want to go watch previous episodes and figure out what's up.

there are but the market is changing. New readers are going to graphic novels and trades instead of floppies.

Wikipedia and the Marvel and DC wikis are perfectly fine resources.

>John Byrne agrees with the Marvel editor blasting oldfags.

I don't think the two comments are in allignment.

Wacker is an SJW douche and his comment is stupid because there are about 200,000 people who were/are fans of Marvel comics for 50 years ongoing and they constitute a potential audience. There are like a total of 12 new Marvel Comics fans in the last three years.

And Byrne's comment is about how Marvel chased away most of their old fans a decade or three ago.

You really think John Byrne supports politically correct comics? He regards Slott's Spidey as heresy, so imagine what he thinks of female Thor.

The OP's idea is that these two polar opposites have been pulled so far apart that they are now actually touching.

I doubt Byrne cares about Thor. He would HATE what has been done with She-Hulk though. and I wouldn't blame him, it's fucking terrible

>but you can blame that squarely on price

Also, comic books are harder to find now. You need to go to a comic book store, basically. And those tend to be not friendly to outsiders. Digital notwithstanding, comic books are now not readily available.

Whitesplaining

John Byrne is an autistic pedophile.

desu availability doesn't matter at all with floppy prices being what they are.

Savage.

>muh bias opinion

Go away and make another Bane thread on Sup Forums

>And Byrne's comment is about how Marvel chased away most of their old fans a decade or three ago.
Have they? Born in 1989 and grew up reading comics since 1997. Thunderbolts was my first Marvel title I read and loved the shit out of it. I also avidly read Ultimate Spider-Man when it debuted in 2000.

Have readers from the 70's and 80's abandoned Marvel that drastically?

With the exception of Kamala Khan, no new character sells better than the classic, and Kamala only does that because Carol Danvers can't sell for shit. Kamala herself has shit sales nowadays.

I don't know what exactly you tried to achieve with that lie.

Isn't this guy a pedophile?

>Have readers from the 70's and 80's abandoned Marvel that drastically?
pretty much, yes. a lot of regular Marvel readers don't read any of their stuff anymore

>implying it had meaning to lose

Jesus fuck, the absolute state of Sup Forums for this to be the first post in this thread.

Ouch. No wonder comic sales are declining.

Admittedly, I haven't read anything new since 2010. I've been on a retro binge through all the bargain bins in my LCS. I've been reading ROM Spaceknight, West Coast Avengers, the original run of X-Factor, 80's X-Men, 80's Fantastic Four, 80's Hulk, and a lot of Spectacular/Amazing/Sensational Spider-Man books from before 2000.

There is a spine right there

good choice, 80s were the best comic decade. I think the 2000s are underrated too, but current superhero stuff is bad

I read all of the 2000's. I enjoyed most of Ultimate Marvel before it nose-dived into shit. X-Men had some good moments while other books were kinda mixed.

The thing I can truly respect about the 80's era of Marvel is that they really kept the continuity tight. Each book would handwave and explain why certain characters weren't around to help and so on and so forth. Post-2000's, Marvel was in a clusterfuck. Especially with the X-Books.

How did people come to conclusion that this was Byrne Kirby was talking about here?

I'm about your age and I started reading the older Nick Fury and Sgt Fury and his howling commandos comics I found in my dad's chest. Read for a long time until I dropped it. Don't even have an urge to see the movies anymore.

Yeah I've been meaning to read 70's Marvel but I haven't got the chance yet.

I'm all for more diverse heroes, but you either have to write a good story about a character who happens to be black, Latin American, Asian, Muslim, LGBT, or whatever. Story and characterization is priority not SJWism.

The only other way is legacy character like Kamala. In fact, she and Jaime Reyes are the 2 best examples of non-whites stepping into established superhero roles since the 2000's.

Have you ever seen a John Byrne photograph?

He's not that fat. Also hair color is wrong.

He should have gone farther and have Big Barda give birth to a half-Kryptonian baby.

He deserved worse.
Byrne is a piece of shit.

I completely disagree. I think respect should be paid to those who have spent more time loving something. That doesn't mean they're "right" - but they have done the time.

>Kirby got tired of Marvel getting rich of his creations

Revisionist bullshit. Kirby didn't mind being a work-for-hire. He returned to Marvel for a time but was dissatisfied wiith his contract terms and decided he should renegotiate them - better terms amongst some other goodies. Marvel declined and he left, then began working on different independent projects.

Some years latter the creator of Howard the Duck got involved in a lawsuit with Marvel over the character and the whole thing grew into a shitstorm, and Kirby was convinced by Gerber to do the art for a Howard the Duck parody called Destroyer Duck in order raise funds for the lawsuit, and of course shit on Marvel. Byrne being the autistic little fuck he was made some retarded comments about it, and of course Kirby returned the dis.

years later, Marvel under Shooter and DC would both greatly improve the terms of their work-for-hire contract adding both royalties and bonuses.

On one hand, expanding the market and appeal to new readers is vital
On the other hand, the point is to get new PAYING readers

If this isn't a sign that things aren't going well, NOTHING is.

If they're doing well, they wouldn't be doing this.

>shit marvelfags say

It's more that Marvel has been trying to innovate and reinvent themselves for 15 years, and each consecutive attempt has been costing them their core base

Right now Marvel's flopply market is essentially down to brand recognition / indirect sales, event sales and hardcore character fan sales that carry titles like spiderman. Their core buyer base has pretty much vanished save for the most hardcore of waifuists.

Trades are a different deal however, Marvel doens't do spectacularly bad in terms of trade afaik, but we still need to wait and see how the trades of their current ongoings and events fare

The problem is they're not bringing in new fans either. It's the worst of both worlds: try to pander to new fans, alienate the old ones and the new fans don't come. Same shit is happening with WWE.

Based Booster Cogburn. Kirby was right

I actually think Kamala's selling worse than Carol now.

Marvel almost caught lightning in a bottle, but decided to fart into it

Sup Forums was right... we should have listened to them, Sup Forums... all these years... I've been telling them to fuck back off to Sup Forums... and they were just trying to warn us. I feel like a dick.

He described himself as a "Company Man" in a well known interview.

Haha, you dumb Ewingfag. DC is saving the industry. Tomasi's Superman is the modern day version of Sandman.

fuck off back to Sup Forums, Sup Forums

problem isn't Marvel pandering to the new audience, it's that they told the old audience to fuck themselves and stopped making the product they wanted. it's like if McDonald decided one morning, "hey hamburgers are old news lets just sell vegan rice cakes that only 1% of our existing customer base will buy and will maybe bring in another 1% of customers who've never paid for our product"