Transfomers

Is there a worse TF show than Beast Machines?

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Armada

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Energon.

Some say Energon is the worst. While not a TV show, Kiss Players is universally damned by the fandom.

Oh fuck off. Armada was great

Energon was... amazingly bad.

>some people answer the question, but let me present you with an alternative that completely ignores the question in order to present my knowledge of trivia

>Beast Machines is bad meme

Has there ever been more of a "NOT MUH" retaliation than this show?

TTG

Is there anything that Beast Machines did right?
Besides Cheetor.

Energon and Combiner Wars

To my knowledge it's the only Transformers show that was completely plotted out from beginning to end before the series even began. That sounds neat, on paper at least.

Beast Machines isn't as bad as people make it out to be, but it's not a good show either.

They never should have tried to juggle the "nature vs technology" and the "individual vs hive mind/identity" themes. The end result is proof enough that it was beyond writers' abilities to deliver.
They tried to make the plot "epic" and "deep" I guess, but fell flat on their faces.

They also had (mostly) Godawful character designs, and the bad habit of fucking up good characters when they did have them (I'm looking at Tankor and Jetstorm)

And those complaints have nothing to do with comparisons to Beast Wars

Megatron.

Also, the Nightscream/Savage Noble subplot was actually good, start to finish

No it wasn't. You just grew up with it. A few good episodes and some good characterization doesn't make the series as a whole great.

Nigger how can you say Armada when it had 2 inferior sequels? I mean Energon fucking existed.

Beast Machines or Energon seem to be the top picks for worst.

>those complaints have nothing to do with comparisons to Beast Wars
>They never should have tried to juggle the "nature vs technology" and the "individual vs hive mind/identity" themes.
>They also had (mostly) Godawful character designs, and the bad habit of fucking up good characters

Honestly BM Cheetor was a mistake, too. he was never meant to be a leader. He wasn't mature enough; even at the end of bW he was still a pubescent teenager. Maybe its because the BW writers hated him(they sure went out of their way to make a joke of him or just outright ignore him as much as they could), but he never showed the qualities of a budding leader. They tried to make him a Hot Rod type, but even Hot Rod was bold, charismatic, and quick-witted before getting the matrix, if too rash for other people's own good. Cheetor was a coward and a follower, not a thinker at all. BM Cheetor might as well have been a different character; the character Hasbro wanted Cheetor to be in BW.

Rattrap showed better qualities as a leader. He should've taken a more proactive role in Rhinox's absence. Blackarachnia should've been the tech guy; she basically was in BW season 3. Cheetor should've had more time to grow.

>Even after all those shitty Transformers series that came before and after it people still consider Beast Machines worse because MUH BEAST WARS

Honestly if not for the lolita stuff Kiss Players would've been praised by the wiki/AVP continuity dorks. Its amazingly fanwanky; with a bunch of references to various aspects of the mythos up until then, characters drawn in reference to their toy version, etc. It just also has lolis in erotic poses.

>It just also has lolis in erotic poses.
I know, it's great.

Why was RiD better than Armada?

Kiss players, the first RID, the original cartoons were a bit stretched, anything where japan shoehorns moe-girls as plot relevant.

To be honest, Beast Wars and Beast Machines were my introduction to transformers, so nostalgia.

Ok, I'll bite

How do those complaints have anything to do with BEast Wars?

They shouldn't have juggled two themes. Pick one or the other. They obviously couldn't handle both.

The designs were awful in and of themselves.

And if you'll notice, when I said "fucking up good characters when they had them" I mentioned Jetstorm and Tankor. Your only picking half of what I said to make it look like I'm saying "hey fucked up Beast Wars characers by changing them for Beast Machines!" Which I'm not. I'm saying that when Beast MAchines itself established a good character, they eventually ruined it
The fucked up Jetstorm by having Blackarachnia reformat him against his will. Silverbolt was never as entertaining as Jetstorm was
They fucked up Tankor by having all his brilliant plotting undone by a sudden need to be a gloating egomaniac at the 11th hour, which IMO felt OOC for what they had already established.

Because Sky-Byte

yes, I like it too.

I was honestly thinking of doing a series of "modern" Kiss players drawings using lolis introduced in the franchise since then. Sari, Izabella from TLK, Miko, etc. But I worry some crazed TF fans would try and get a cP charge on me.

>NOT MUH BEAST WARS

Why would you make a sequel and tell the people making it not to watch the original show?

Is TF Prime worth watching?

No

Not really.

Yes

Nope

Any comments on Head Masters?

Yes, but I don't think its very memorable or necssary. In a technical sense, its the best animated and written TF show. But its dull ina lot of ways, and doesn't feel like it adds anything really new to the mythos or is particularly defining, besides a few interesting new or reimagined characters.

Not that poster, but you just reminded me that they did that.
Like, holy shit, what the hell were the execs thinking with that move?

Maybe because they wanted to make the show stand on its own and not associate it with something so silly

Prime should be given a F for completely wasting Peter Cullen.

Frank Welker was great though.

a show so bad that even a g1 movie reference got slammed in the wiki.

for comparison, the bayverse using a g1 movie reference is considered a GOOD thing.

Let's examine the defintion of "worse" here

Was Beast Machines well animated? I guess so

But people USUALLY hate Beast Machines for its designs, characterization, writing and plot.

Armada didn't have bad writing, it just made little to no effort to maintain quality, and the kids were unnecessary.

If I had to choose between watching Beast Machines again or watching Armada again, I'd go with Armada.

Megatron was the only thing watchable in that.

>Armada didn't have bad writing

For the most part yes, but as shows they're not really comparable.

Car Robots was an episode-of-the-day style show that tried to keep things simple, as opposed to Armada trying to show some deep dark mystery that ultimately fell flat. RiD however was a less-than-decent localization, made even worse after the 9/11-induced edits.

Car Robots/RiD is more fun to watc at least.

>But people USUALLY hate Beast Machines for its designs, characterization, writing and plot.
They usually hate it for not being Beast Wars 2.0 which isn't the same as being bad but then again they just shit on everything for not being Beast Wars even G1.

But are you saying the designs, characterization, writing and plot WEREN'T bad?

I don't feel Beast Machines stands up on its own.

Even discounting the fact that it was a followup on a popular TF show. On its own merits it's a pretty bad cartoon from the era. Just from the top of my head:
>ugly, terrible designs and animation
>needlessly edgy characters and motivations
>an environmental-type message that even Captain Planet would be embarrassed at
>slow, sometimes incomprehensible action due to the terrible lighting
>plot elements that are either rushed, not expanded upon or dropped outright

And as I said, that's before getting into the things that it ruined from Beast Wars. Sure Energon and Kiss Players may objectively be much, MUCH worse in comparison. But there's a reason BM is a bad show.

And hell, I'd argue it was of the forebearers for the state of crappy Canadian animation that shows like TDI and its kin would carry on.

I hate what they did to Rhinox. Aside from that one episode he was forcibly turned evil in BW, he was always the reliable one who did the right thing. Fuck, he won the Beast Wars by flying a shuttle through the Nemesis. Why him?

I liked the concept of megatron winning and fucking up cybertron and the good guys using guerrilla warfare to rescue all of the cybertronians but the characteriztion and theme exploration was pretty sloppy.

Optimus turning into a cult leader was pretty strange, and the entire "we must find a balance between the organic and technology, is the will of the oracle computer" was pretty weird too, what if the other cybertronians didnt want to become techno-organic? Them having beast modes was because of necessity, not because that was an upgrade.

Also the entire mission of turning Jetstorm and Tankor to their former selves was a big hypocrisy. They are totally different beings now, what right to they have to practically kill this being? What happened to the "rescuing lives" subplot?

Why Rhinox turned evil and megalomaniacal?
Why Rattrap turned into a coward again?

And why megatron hated organic life so much? where did this came from? was being a loser at the hands of a bunch of robots that turned into animals such a big trauma to him?

Designs are subjective as fuck
Characterization goes back into NOT MUH
But you better try your damn hardest to convince me how the writing in Beast Machines is more offensive than any Transformers series. That is a huge tall order considering that this franchise is not known for its good writing.

Why was Energon the worst? I dropped it early when it failed to do anything interesting.

i like how they settled the gun vs tank debate on that one

"why not both?"

>On its own merits it's a pretty bad cartoon from the era.

I mean, this was the era where NASCAR heroes was a thing, its not that fucking bad. And for fucks sake, he enviromental message isn't that bad. why do nerds get so ruffled over that stuff? They're not even telling you not to litter. BM's nature vs technology is so lofty as to not be relevant to real world environmentalism whatsoever.

Unacceptable stiff and horrendous CG animation, terrible designs, new human somehow even less likeable than the last bunch combined, a plot that kept going nowhere, Rodimus, endless combination garbage.

Beast Machines was all over the place, sure. It absolutely deserves a reboot that does the concept justice.

Though given Transformers is all about G1 wank now, that's not happening.

>ugly, terrible designs and animation
Dude fuck off. I can understand not liking the deigns but the animation was Mainframe at its peak in the 90's and still hold up better than it should
>needlessly edgy characters and motivations
Really? Even by EXTREME 90's stylings it was pretty tame.
>an environmental-type message that even Captain Planet would be embarrassed at
Hardly
>slow, sometimes incomprehensible action due to the terrible lighting
Do you have ADHD
>plot elements that are either rushed, not expanded upon or dropped outright
No worse than every other Transfromers series

>But there's a reason BM is a bad show.
Because its not Beast Wars 2 Electric Bugaloo instead its Neon Genesis Beast Wars?

pretty much that.

show failed to make the core gimmicks of the toyline interesting.

energon weapons are a hassle to produce (in-universe) and only gives minutes if not seconds of usage and not that impressive even if used.

powerlinking has the same problems and looks goofy looking.

>It absolutely deserves a reboot that does the concept justice.

No it doesn't. Beast Machines' story and concept is crap.

DO IT user

>In a technical sense, its the best animated and written TF show
>written TF show
How so? The writing was way below Animated level

Reminder that the specific exec who ordered that was Dan Didio.

>Armada didn't have bad writing, it just made little to no effort to maintain quality

do it.

also how would kiss players have fared if artists like masami obari did the art?

>Really? Even by EXTREME 90's stylings it was pretty tame.
So depressed Rattrap or Rhinox changing sides because Megatron was right is not on the same level of other edgy stuff? Care to give an example of worse?
>No worse than every other Transfromers series
Again, can you name worse?
>Do you have ADHD
If I had ADHD, I wouldn't even be posting on this Much less to this post.
>Because its not Beast Wars 2 Electric Bugaloo instead its Neon Genesis Beast Wars?
I'm not going to say BW was a good series (it's incredibly mixed in tone and often times the humor parts were bad), but it handled its darker elements a smidgen better than its successor.


The problem is that they could have conveyed it better than Primal's near-terrorism level hatred for technology. Also, I didn't say BM was the single worst show there was at the time (I was there when NASCAR Racers was a thing, and Spider-Man Unlimited too). But it's not that good a show even if it isn't complete shit.

>So depressed Rattrap or Rhinox changing sides because Megatron was right is not on the same level of other edgy stuff?
How is that edgy? Dinobot trying to commit sudoku is more edgy than that.
>Again, can you name worse?
Headmasters
>If I had ADHD, I wouldn't even be posting on this Much less to this post.
Yet you couldn't get through BM

Only season 1. After that it's obvious that they had no idea where to go from there.

>Yet you couldn't get through BM
I did, and I also got through the Bayformers films. And I can say that BM, while not nearly as incomprehensible visually, still has its fair share of dark-looking or choppily edited moments in it.
>Headmasters
I'll give you that. But I'd like an example on the Western front too.

Yeeessssss

Beast Machines fucked up real hard in the cast alone

Rattrap is true main character potential. His character arc is the most defined as he starts out in Beast Wars as a coward and grows to be more courageous even despite his weaker animal form as the show goes on. Rhinox was just Ratchet 2.0 in Elephant Skin. Cheetor is your typical arrogant hotshot who really doesn't change in anyway as he's definitely one of the stronger and more useful maximals. Rattrap is a runt that the world takes a step on. He's the one who deserves to get more powerful and he's the one who should be leading the team

They fucked up every single character. Even Megatron was shit

Yes but Rattrap is the single greatest character to come from the Transformers franchise

He's a goddamn rat. And then he becomes a goddamn rat with wheels

Beast Machines is honestly a good show. The reason it sucks is because it's a shit sequel to Beast Wars. If it wasn't a sequel to Beast Wars it would probably be largely liked.

I prefer to think of it as a 'what if' sequel rather than an actual sequel.

>Beast Machines is honestly a good show
No, it isn't. It sucks on its own merits, it just becomes truly awful when you add the context of Beast Wars.

nice bait/10

Why does Optimus have a goddamn boner on this cover so big it's pushing his entire crotch out of alignment?

>Has there ever been more of a "NOT MUH" retaliation than this show?

That's like asking why people are pissed because they ordered a pizza and handed a salad instead

Fuck off, fans reserve the right to demand products that actually want to support and put money into

>people actually defending BM

kek

the comics

Not a show but The Beast Within is super awful.

I find the mere idea that you could consider BW 'silly' certainly it had it's silly moments, but on the whole? Across it's entire life? It most certainly was not.

Nostalgia

Prime
>optimus has no emotions
>useless human allies
>ow the edge the series

>ow the edge the series
Beast Machines was ow the edge the series. Prime was "I want to be taken seriously: the series"

Energon > BM

funny how two shows having vehicons have two different approaches to them.

one has them as a threat out of sheer numbers (they can waste a few but will eventually fall) the other has them more of a nuisance even with the numbers.

That's a funny way to spell transformers prime.

I'll just leave this gloriously dated page here.

angelfire.com/scifi/rampagesdomain/RampagesDomain.html

Prime is bland and boring not "bad"

Yes, but go in for the voice-acting and character work

>one has them as a threat out of sheer numbers (they can waste a few but will eventually fall) the other has them more of a nuisance even with the numbers.
Which is which?

At least BM had some ambition and wasn't lazy as fuck.

I am surprised they have not gone under.

BM (good vehicons)
Prime (bad vehicons)

I am tired of people bitching and moaning about this series. It took RISKS. It wasn't just another rehash of the G1 plot. It was a series that took place on Cybertron away from all the human shit that fans begged for. The series gave the most distinct look to the Transformers unique to their own, with a sinister Megatron that no other incarnation ever became as successful.

>It took RISKS
You get no credit for "taking risks" if the result is shit. Fuck Beast Machines.

I loved that there was a plantformer. I'll forever be salty that the concept was never expanded upon. That one character suggested more interesting things about the universe than the entirety of Prime did.

question:

say the maximals kept their BW characterizations but everything still unfolds exactly the way it happens (the oracle, vector sigma, rhinox and silverbolt brainwashed) how much different would it be from what we got?

i mean people complain about rattrap falling into a depression enough to ally with megatron for a night but how would his BW self deal with the whole "no legs" thing?

>It took RISKS
What a risks? Being edgy and "dark"?

>The series gave the most distinct look to the Transformers unique to their own
That was Animated

>with a sinister Megatron that no other incarnation ever became as successful.
That was Animated Megatron

And what about the fans that liked it?

There's taking risks, and then there's pissing on the third rail of a train track for the hell of it, which is what Beast Machines did by dumb moves such as writers being told to not watch the series they were making a sequel to.