Why does canon matter so much to you? Why does a story not being canon suddenly invalidate it?

Why does canon matter so much to you? Why does a story not being canon suddenly invalidate it?

To some people the continuity is the only reason they read comics. I don't really get it but that's the appeal for them.

I imagine it's just the idea of a huge interconnected universe that they like and at some point they just start liking that more than the stories themselves.

It's not that important to me but I can see why someone would get pissy if an aspect of the character/story they liked was just disregarded especially to craft a subpar story.
It could be seen as the plot equivalent of mischaracterization.

I feel that rule of thumb is that you should never care about something more than the creator does.

If they don't give a shit about canon, you shouldn't give a shit about canon.

It's not, but then again I've grown out of that phase. Some people don't and that's okay.

thats dumb. And it ignores that these comics don't have a single creator.

Actually it could explain why people would like "Canon".

Say you like a creator's work on a character, and then also like the character, with big two comics being the way they are, 10 different people across 5 different series write say Mr. Miracle or Batman.

Canon can be an important agent for enforcing some consistency, or recalling the style of an older writer. and of course the opposite is true. it can be used just to make the same shit different day.

Consider this; I write a throwaway character for a comic. From inception the character was never meant to have a large role, or even much dialogue and from inception I had decided that they will eventually die.
In-spite of the character objectively not being important, the fans latch onto them and love said character.
When times comes for me to kill them off, the fans are upset and proceed to flood me with complaints and even drop the comic.
Am I in the wrong for writing the story exactly how I had always intended or are they in the wrong because they cared too much about something so inconsequential.

Do you believe that fanfiction is just as legitimate as the source material?

>Why does canon matter so much to you?

Not me personally but
>You're specifically reading a character for interconnected storylines and love the interactions and developments that come with it. Barbara being crippled was horrifying but it gave context that furthered the enjoyment of reading that character down the line
>Cohesion assists immersion, if blatantly contradicting situations or actions happen from the same character than the reader or viewer is reminded that this situation is manufactured, and by someone who cannot write consistently.
>Consistent characterization and recollection of past events is a sign of artistic skill to some. Anyone can write a Batman where he screams a lot and acts all broody, but one that can recall the softer moments with Alfred he'd had can use that past history and character to create much more powerful scenes.
>It gives a sense of value to the stories they've already read before beyond the base fun had reading the book and offers revisiting value. If there is a blantant contradiction or retcon later, this can hurt going back to that story as you're reminded of what became of it.
>It satisfies the sense of wonder when reading a story and realizing it's one piece to a vast universe of interconnected creators working within the same world.

>Why does a story not being canon suddenly invalidate it?
Now, see, you're mixing up canon.

>Everything that happened in Superman Red Son is canon, to Superman Red Son.
>Everything that happened in The Dark Knight Returns is canon to The Dark Knight Returns.
>Everything that happens in The Boys is canon to The Boys.
>Everything that happened in all the stories pre-crisis are canon to that universe.

See what I mean? Stories are not invalidated for being outside the norm, they're sometimes celebrated, but only because they kept the canon consistency that made reading them all the way through worth reading.

Your situation has nothing to do with something being canonical.

that's an irrelevant question when it comes for Cape Comics. Because everything not written by the original creator is likely written by someone who has read/been a fan of the comic in the past.
Incestuous and stagnant industry.

It does have to with my original rule: "you should never care about something more than the creator does."

>Am I in the wrong... are they in the wrong

You assume one of you has to be in the 'wrong' for some reason, why?

If, say, you were political on twitter or something with beliefs you've held for a long time, and never suffered any loss of sales, but then you inserted that belief into said comic and instantly a dearth of people immediately dropped the book, were they in the 'wrong'? Why? They dropped the series when an aspect they liked, maybe in this case leaving enough politics out of it they could forget about the world, ended. You were just writing what you believed and had not hidden at all, they were just complaining and leaving when something they'd previously enjoyed was ended in some fashion. Are you wrong for putting that material in, or could they really be called wrong simply for not wanting to pay for that material at all?

Canon is important for comics because they are stories that are written by multiple people, and if those people decide to write whatever the fuck they want all the time then there is no longer a story.

No one finds a story that isn't canon invalid just because it isn't canon, what the fuck are you on about? It would only be invalid if you attempt to apply the characterization from the non-canon story to the canon version of that character.

you areny wrong for following your story

but on the other hand, you are still merely human, and your judgement, though enjoying the advantage of foreknowledge of the story, and are not always right
you are still going to misjudge how much potential your characters have, or put too much focus on characters who are legitmately not that interesting

the fans aren't always right, pandering to them leads to just as much trouble, but at the same time, even if only "million monkeys on typewriters" sense, they often do give some good ideas, some of the best characters were never intended to be big deals from the start, but the writer realized the fans were onto something

following only your own vision, even if it alienates your audience, is fine but it also turns you into a doomed moral victor, whose works failed but never compromised their original vision
however, your original vision may suck, and just as you arent entitled to change for your fans, they arent entitled to stick around for you.
dont get angry that they arent buying your works, you knew less people would read it when you make such a change
also, never bite the hand that feeds you, the people enjoying your work are the main reason the writer can eat

is legitimacy directly related to quality?
there's been several instances where fan content has been better than official content, especially in circumstances where a franchise is being held hostage by a company who won't do anything with it

They're not wrong for growing attached to a character because they should've known you didn't really care. They can drop it if they're soured by the turn of events.
But let's go another way with your logic.
Say a long running show changes runners. The show had made good use of continuity had good character growth and a certain sense of humor. The new runner never liked those aspects and they rework it to an episodic show that completely changes the character dynamic. But since they didn't care about what you liked you should retroactively not care in the first place.

You're right in the viewers aren't entitled to have the product run how they like, but the creators also aren't entitled to an audience.
Canon in itself isn't a good or bad thing, just a tool that can be made use of.

If something is non-canon then it means it doesn't matter. Caring about shit that doesn't matter is autistic.

It's not necessarily that things have to be canon, but things shouldn't be irrelevant.

People don't care about the Bond Girl for the same reason.

I know I do. The issue with fanfiction is quality, not some claim that they lack official recognition.

In some cases "non-canon" is used as a way of disrespecting and disregarding material the suits personally dislike. In these cases, I find it aggravating to enraging. If it's just a matter of being an Elseworld, or is acknowledged in canon as an "alternate reality" or something, that's perfectly agreeable.

What about when something is declared non canon after the fact. For instance, people were very upset with the Star Wars EU being declared non canon. None of those things you mentioned were lost. The old stories were as cohesive as they ever were.

The matter of throwing out nearly 50 years of work just because CEOs find it to be unprofitable and not properly progressive is essentially the corporate equivalent of book burning. It's hugely disrespectful to the creators who worked on the franchise and serves no real purpose but to establish an iron grip of No Fun Allowed.

It was never internally consistent thematically or factually so it's a dumb thing to care about.

How does it throw out anything though? It is exactly the same as it ever way, no reality has changed. Someone said it was non canon, but the books still exist. The stories are exactly the same.

>t. For instance, people were very upset with the Star Wars EU being declared non canon. None of those things you mentioned were lost. The old stories were as cohesive as they ever were.

Yes, but it meant they would not be continued. Over two decades of stories piled on and then you learn they've come to an end, and won't be continued. Of course people would be upset, and that's a point towards why Canon can mean a lot to ongoing stories.

There wasn't a world shattering event that changed the landscape of Star Wars, they simply learned all that after all this time, just as Star Wars finally returns back to full force and extended stories would be told exploring more than just the main characters, the stories they'd enjoyed would never be put on the big screen. It's very much like when studios racebend actors or change their backstories and personalities, Ala Fan4stic for one unified example. Nothing was lost, but due to someone completely unrelated to the original stories taking over, they would never be realized in another way either. It can be painful to realize years upon years of enjoyed content has stopped, and you'll never see another tale of Jaina Solo, not even as a side thing. You're mixing up mourning for never seeing anything again that had been so consistent over the years with thinking something was merely discarded. They're two different things.

Is there anything stopping people from continuing it? Is there a legal issue now?

>Is there anything stopping people from continuing it?

Yes, the owners of said material explicitly saying it would in no way shape or form be continued in the 'new canon', despite protests against it. At most, there will be attempts to bring some stories features into canon, but never in the form they were.

>Is there a legal issue now?

Disney tends to be very protective of it's cash cows, yes. Any attempts to make new content would have to pass through them, and there's no chance they'd let it.

No one cares about fanfiction. Which is appropriate because the SWEU was always licensed fanfiction.

>No one finds a story that isn't canon invalid just because it isn't canon, what the fuck are you on about?

Agents of SHIELD was impossible to discuss here because people would say it's not canon, therefore it doesn't matter.

Those are people trolling you because they hate the show and Sup Forums shit needs to be banned from this board, not an actual philosophy.

That's just shit posting making fun of the show built on MCU dickriding. Nobody is actually discussing it because nobody cares about it because its not interesting.

You want a story to be fluid and not have random bits that aren't actually part of the story. It's fine if you include things like the newspaper clippings between chapters in watchmen, but don't make an entire other book about Rorschach going to Disneyland.

If a story isn't consistent it's not a good story. If the author can't be assed to be consistent then they obviously don't care about the work enough to tell a good story. Inconsistent writing is by default a bad story.
No. In this scenario it is the corporation that has to enforce the quality of canon. If it's not canon it's not quality by default.

>Character
>Story with character
>non-canon story
>make it canon
>make the shitty canons non-canon
>improve experience and mood exponentially

Whoa.

If the comic is good then who cares about it being canon? Plus if it's really good it could become canon in the future some day.

I think you completely misunderstand the issue. No one cares about a noncanon story being written as noncan, the issue is retconning a Canon story.

If it's still a good story then that shouldn't matter either. Some of my favorite comics are "non-canon."

Because it shows bad knowledge of your own subject if you don't follow the history made.
And it shows bad writing skill if you know the history and flat put ignore/contradict it.

Because I need stability and meaning in my life.

I could never get into superheroes because each with each different comic they are almost or often completely different characters.

Why retcon it.

Yes but it does bring in the question does the comic come off as good if they ignore the canon too much.

For example, a while back someone storytimed Hickman's FantasticFour run.
In the run the comic rewrote Johnny being killed to Johnny being captured, Annilaus acted like a nihilistic monster who didn't care if he lived or died (despite his character usually being a beast desperate for survival to going so far as to wanting to blow up two universes if it meant no threats left for him), and Black Bolt somehow coming back despite that making zero sense.
So do you recognize these large retcons and enjoy the story? Or recognize them and bash the stories?

Lots of comics are simply retconned cause they couldn't possibly fit in a timeline.

Like how despite Johns run of GL was continued into N52 and therefore canon.
It isn't COMPLETELY canon since it wouldn't possibly make sense that stuff from Zero Hour to all of Johns run and more canon in the less than 10 years in story the current canon would be.

I want to grab that person by the long hair and make him deepthroat my dick until I shoot a huge load of cum down his skinny throat and listen to him gasp and gulp.

you can enjoy non-canon things. anything non-canon is fanfiction and just means it has no meaning or bearing on the universe the work takes place in.

He's just a piece a paper, dude.
Calm down.

A piece of paper I'm going to jerk off to.

Usually, if a writer ignores cannon, it means they are too lazy to do research on the history of the characters they are writing, or too lazy to work in whatever ideas they have in a way that respects the cannon

they don't want to earn it, they just want to do their ideas and fuck everyone elses

that's inherently disrespectful to the audience that cares about said history, and the previous writers that came before

It's harder to write comics within a long-standing cannon, but it can be done and still take characters in new directions

Some hacks use "accessibility to new readers" as a shield to slack off on writing duties, but this is bullshit. You can write something in cannon without it looming over the whole story.

You just have to care...

I love the Gregs

Canon determines the conversation of most of fandom. Without conversation, there's not really a point to fandom. That's why I hate reboots, because no, it doesn't take away my stories. It takes away the fandom.

An excellent question. Other posters have brought up good points in response.

This is awesome content, but it doesn't really deal with the question OP was asking, because you're talking about a matter of internal quality, but OP was referring to the phenomenon of people being mad at reboots and retcons for making older stories non-canon (at least, that's how I read it).

The problem isn't that the story is "invalid," it's that it become irrelevant to the ongoing history of the franchise/character, and to the fandom as a whole. Why is the Killing Joke still relevant? Because it still affects Barbara Gordon's characterization, in addition to being a powerfully written work (of Joker wanking idiocy). If it were Elseworlds as originally planned, it would be remembered, but not nearly as much.

That's an excellent point. So much of franchise tie-in media, from comics, to novels, to video games, is pure crap. However, because it's canon, people will buy it, and care about it, and talk about it, while fanfic that's infinitely better written is ignored, because it literally doesn't matter to the ongoing story of the character or franchise.

Thank you, user, for providing a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Most people think that caring about things that don't matter is stupid. Thus, if a story is not-canon, to them it doesn't matter, whereas to me, it matters intensely because it forms my understanding and love of a story or character.

Beautifully put. The investment people like me put into Star Wars (or Batman post-Crisis comics) was intense, and seeing all of those stories and character regressed or erased and never followed up on all the things we'd put so much time and effort into was intensely painful.

Only nerds on /swco/ care about canon.

Really curious - what stories are they, and were they originally canon and retconned, or non-canon to begin with? And do you find a strong fanbase of those stories to discuss and enjoy and celebrate them with?

Perfectly put. On the other hand, though, I can see the desire to change crummy stories (War Games comes to mind), or update something (the Year One project, including Robin and Batgirl). It's intensely subjective.

Autists doesn't like changes

If something isn't canon than the characters are forced to return to status quo. It happens in comics anyway, but every once in a while a stray piece of character development slips through the cracks and takes hold deep enough that an author can't just come along and kill it (not without getting Mephisto involved, anyway). A story not being canon takes away any hope for such a chance.

Hey user, i'm still on my way to drawing one thousand nepetas.

No you are not wrong. But they aren't either. After your death all their interpretations will be as legitimate as yours.

Actually no scratch all that both you and they are wrong. Neither you nor them matter. Your story doesn't matter. Nothing matters.

canon, non canon doesn't matter. What actually matters is copyright and if the user is allowed to use the IP

>my original rule: "you should never care about something more than the creator does."

I like Gravity Falls, whose creator puts in deepest lore, like the A X O L O T L.

it doesn't. many of my favorite stories are non-canon.

it doesn't to me, not really. Every story in the world has a story behind it, every writer wanted to get some point across with his story, and in my opinion it is important to look at a story in the context of what that specific writer tried to achieve with it. Sometimes canon helps with that, but most of the time it's just a hindrance.