The west randomly decides to write a show with an overarching narrative and cool powers and instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation.
Just think of the quality shows the west could produce if they actually tried. Sadly they're gonna keep showing down shallow episodic comedies down our throats.
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Overarching storylines are kind of thing in new shows though, to the point where Sup Forums keeps complaining about modern cartoons being too into the DEEP LORE and not just being episodic comedies like the 90's/early-2000's cartoons
>to the point where Sup Forums keeps complaining about modern cartoons being too into the DEEP LORE and not just being episodic comedies like the 90's/early-2000's cartoons
lol who the fuck wants boring ass comedy
I'm afraid you're quite misguided, OP.
Sad as it may be, the early 2000s level of talent is long gone from the Western animation industry.
Lots of people apparently.
Gravity Falls - ongoing mystery plot, was big on Sup Forums and then people melted down
Steven Universe - ongoing plot with an alien invasion and crap and Sup Forums drives it out for being too girly
Ducktales - Looks like it's going to have some sort of plot involving the triplets missing mother and in the threads people are unhappy and want it to be self contained adventures
There are other shows that are doing it but these are the three that come to mind.
sad
bump
Problem is they don't have an overarching plot, they have episode of the week with a few plot threads that get brought up whenever the writers feel like it, in Avatar the journey was constantly progressing, the episodes where it slows down like the Great Divide and the Fortuneteller even got mocked in the show itself
Watching stuff like Steven Universe and Star Wars Rebels or whatever and the shows only pick up the story now and then, usually you've got something going on in the first episode of the season that gets resolved in the last episode of the season, and everything in between is just filler
It doesn't matter if something has "DEEPEST LORE" if the show's plot only has an impact now and then
>the Fortuneteller even got mocked in the show itself
>things that never happened
Sorry, got it wrong in the hurry, but I checked and they definitely mocked the Great Divide
It was mocked for being terribly written, not for being episodic though. Many of the other episodes are quite standalone, but well-regarded.
Most of the episodic ones tend to be the least well regarded in the series
Steven Universe kind of has its plot low-key involved in almost every episode though. Stuff that happens, even in the non-gem 'Townie' episodes still matters and the relationships between characters change over time.
So they've got like 4 and a half seasons now? How much has changed with the world since then?
Better than having to put up with a million episodes of lame writing to be slowly drip-fed a derivative story that will inevitably end in a disappointing way.
>instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation.
it doesn't even compete with 80's anime, nigga
>implying 80s anime wasn't best
Only a handful of the best anime ever made are overall better than ATLA, and even then ATLA is still better in specific ways.
Well the characters discovered a several thousand year old plot to destroy the earth by using the ruined bodies of prisoners of war to make a superweapon and barely managed to put it off, the alien homeworld is now aware of earth once again and their god-queen leaders have taken an interest in it, the protagonist has learned how to access more of his abilities and use them in combat and there is now a small underground resistance on the aliens home planet being lead by a retail clerk who was brought back from the dead.
The world is mostly the same, but what really matters is that the stories have advanced.
>M-M-M-M-M-MUH SERIALIZED STORYTELLING IS HOLDING ANIMATION BACK
>there still aren't any cartoons that are as good as cowboy bebop, an almost completely episodic show
the problem isn't that the west doesn't get to do one large epic story, it just sucks at making good small stories.
Not him, but you're retarded.
I am me, but you're retarded.
It's the little things that matter.
>an almost completely episodic show
Hence why Bebop is a joke and you shouldn't have bothered mentioning t.
He's right though. Most anime is pretty bad, especially shonen.
Avatar manages to do in a single episode what most shonen take entire arcs to jankily acomplish.
The writing in avatar is concise and consistent, the action flows very well, power levels are kept checked and the narrative has great pacing.
That's pretty hard to find in most anime. The one show I think can compete to Avatar's level of quality is FMA.
Not him, but is that why it's like THE most recognized anime of all time?
But you realize how telling it is that there really aren't any american shows that even come close to bebop levels of objective quality, when bebop was a pretty run of the mill space western anime, right?
Based Netflix is giving us Voltron and LEGO Elves though
>Avatar manages to do in a single episode what most shonen take entire arcs to jankily acomplish.
This reminds me. Someone said One Piece was better than ATLA and I literally laughed out loud.
>The writing in avatar is concise and consistent, the action flows very well, power levels are kept checked and the narrative has great pacing.
PLEASE tell me this is a joke... sigh.
Who am I kidding, of course it's not a joke. This is why Western animation is a miserable failure.
it's rare that I see a pleb even plebbier than myself
...
To be honest it seems to be very minimal considering they've had 4 seasons.
>still no western berserk inspired cartoon
>no good berserk anime
>when bebop was a pretty run of the mill space western anime, right?
Kek, fuck off. Bebop is an unmatched piece of serialized animation. Run of the mill my fucking ass, that shit has gorgeous animation, OST and writing that almost no series since has equaled.
I'd sure enjoy some counter arguments and examples instead of that hollier-than-thou weebs always assume when talking about western animation.
More like 2 and a half seasons considering the episodes are only 11 minutes long each so you don't get as much time per episode to develop things.
nigga it's just lupin III'd in space, or space cobra, or any other of the fucking billion seinen shows in space about sexy sad people out there in japan. Just because its a show with a lot of western exposure doesn't mean its somehow the only fucking one, man. Like shit, go watch some fucking gundam, bebop and all those other shows all come from that same family tree. If you want le sad 2deep adult show watch texhnolyze or something. GITS has more interesting scifi shit going on. Even in terms of tv animation space dandy has surpassed bebop by a wide margin.
Trigun was better than bebop. Fucking outlaw star was better than bebop.
>not just being episodic comedies like the 90's/early-2000's cartoons
Uh yeah no. We had plenty of overarching narrative series in the 90s... Gargoyles probably being the best example. It wasn't all Ren and Stimpy.
Bitch both of the series are good. The movies were meh though.
>instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation
Haha bitch no. Yes 75% of anime is mediocre as fuck, but there are dozens of series more profound than Avatar. And I'm saying that as a fan of Avatar.
>nigga it's just lupin III'd in space
Yeah no fucking shit. That's one of the main inspirations of the show, but the quality of animation and writing is miles above 99% of any serialized anime made before of since it was released.
You have to be retarded to think that Cowboy Bebop is just a "run of the mill" series.
>Fucking outlaw star was better than bebop.
Oh, okay, you are literally retarded.
>eclipse 99% of Japanese animation
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
tbqfh I think Teen Titans is more comparable to the best anime, and surpasses much of it.
I mean, for all the shit TT gets for the visual gags, Avatar overuses anime writing clichés WAY too much. TT meanwhile does its own thing with excellent, sometimes bordering on stunning, writing (especially characterization).
These threads make me mad because they show that Sup Forums knows NOTHING about nip animation and NOTHING of western animation.
>Most anime is pretty bad
That's a useless statement. Most cartoons are bad. Most TV shows and books and movie are bad. At the very least mostly mediocre.
I'd also argue they're trying to do different things. Once Piece of a soap opera or TV drama for children, pulling people into long-running bullshit for profit. Season one of Avatar is... not as amazing as two and three but it's an adventure with planned goals and characters and an end point. It also helps that Avatar has its story done in about 60 episodes, unlike DBZ, General Hospital, Supernatural, etc. Both ATLA and FMA are 60+ episodes, but neither meanders too much, unlike a lot of shows half or twice those lengths.
>The one show I think can compete to Avatar's level of quality is FMA.
FMA is decidedly not very anime, but still there are quite a few that present a series of good characters and a story progression that isn't fight-a-week. Evangelion, Seirei no Morobito, and Boku Dake Inai Machi to name a few. Ghost in the Shell: SAC is more the formula of mostly unrelated cases with overarching plot sprinkled in.
I've never watched One Piece, but I'll assume this is correct.
Yeah, but at least these bait topic threads can MAYBE create some discussion amidst the waifu threads and bullshit.
Well, you're certainly right about waifu threads being great.
I agree with you on all points. Maybe I should've specified SHONEN anime.
How many western cartoons are even completely serialized? I've been making threads for Valt The Wonder Deer on here and it's honestly the only one I can think of since Avatar: The Last Airbender. It was funded by the Chinese and aired in China first, but it was made entirely in the US and was supposed to air here eventually.
It's genuine, direct continuity. A proper adventure cartoon, where one episode leads into the next. The animation and humor isn't as good, but I still liked it.
ATLA is completely serialized? Say what?
(Or are we just pretending that Book 1 and half of Book 3 never existed?)
test
A serialized cartoon doesn't require that every episode just focus on the plot. It just has to have a narrative flow. The Great Divide, for example, wasn't filler at all. The characters were still moving towards their destination on their journey.
>Sup Forumsmr/a/des take the bait
>The Great Divide, for example, wasn't filler at all. The characters were still moving towards their destination on their journey.
Actual discussion isn't "taking the bait".
To think that Samurai Jack gets a complete series restore in 1080p and TT gets an abomination called Teen Titans Go!
>but there are dozens of series more profound than Avatar
Nah. MAYBE a dozen but only if you stretch it.
How the fuck is saying a cartoon is better than the vast majority of anime "bait" on the fucking cartoon board. Christ fuck this site.
You can deny it. You'll be wrong. But hey, when has that stopped anybody?
I am extremly well versed in Japanese animation, more than the majority of Sup Forums. I think I watched about 3 episoides of this before totally losing interest. Could you explain why you think it's so fantastic?
My critisism is as followed.
-The visual design of the main character is stupid, it's enough to almost spoil the whole show. Seriously an arrow pointing to his face?
-None of the characters struck my as likeable. I recall all of them were different flavors of bitchy or stupid with a few more stoic ones, usually adults, to play the straight man. It wasn't a charming type of stupidity or a justified or interesting type of bitchy. They just came off
-It is very hard to ignore how it comes off as anime-wanna be. It doesn't feel japanese at all but like a parody of anime, which would have been fine if the show were not serious.
-As is common for the West the show is non-violent to the point of being boring. The only action show the west ever did well was Batman since his entire character is based around not killing. The Western cartoons have always excelled at comedy and light Disney-style adventure while the Japanese have been the masters of action and darker themes.
-The animation quality is very inconsistent, to the point where I'd grade it poorly
I'd give it a 1.5/5
PS There's a reason no one in Japan watched this and most Western fans of it have a weak exposure to Japanese cartoons.
Yeah no. How much anime have you watched? Did you just latch onto shit on CN after you were a kid watching Pokemon? There are decades of amazing titles out there. And I'm saying this as someone with really high expectations.
tl;dr: if the characters don't look COOL and there's no violence in it, it's shit.
Typical weeb response.
Also
>I am extremly well versed in Japanese animation
kekd
Nigga... Mushishi alone is much more profound than Avatar.
...
I'll just say, you need to watch more than 3 episodes. Season 1 was just getting into its groove and it's the weakest season overall excluding the season finale.
What's wrong with Aang's tattoo?
>Mushishi alone
Mushishi isn't your average anime, it's a pretty great that is far above most modern anime bullshit.
The original series is available in the 1080p HD it was made in, which is way better than remasters!
There are other good modern series. Like 1-3 series a year are on Mushishi's level typically. I'm not really up on catching new stuff lately, but Zankyou no Terror is a good relatively recent example. The 13 episode series tend to be the strongest ones lately.
If you have to watch 20ish full-length episodes before a show starts "getting into its groove", it's shit no matter how good the later ones may be.
It has good episodes in that first season... I'm just saying you shouldn't judge an entire series based on three freaking episodes. I can't get through the first season of Steven Universe to get to when it "gets good"... but I don't presume I can rate the entire show based on the first three episodes I sat through.
Thing is, in the case of Avatar it's literally like 1/3 of the show that's good (most of season 2 + very small portions of seasons 1 and 3). The rest of it is shit.
Pic related has a good balance of overarching story and (mostly good) filler imo. It's not god tier like avatar, samurai jack, and gravity falls were, but it's a sign there's still hope. People point out Steven universe's flaws like it represents all of modern Western animation.
I disagree about the overall quality, but that's fine. I held out for years on watching the show since it looked like a weak anime ripoff, was pleasantly surprised with most of the episodes. And they even joked about the worst episodes in the show.
Now if we're getting into Korra, I can bitch forever.
If you have shit taste maybe. The show was a pretty enjoyable watch from start to finish. I have a hard time recallig any outright shitty episodes.
>The west randomly decides to write a show with an overarching narrative and cool powers and instantly eclipses ~99% of Japanese animation.
This never actually happened. This kind of show is just so rare that when one gets made people instantly think it's the greatest thing ever made.
Anime means more than Dragon Ball Z and Naruto.
>Zankyou no Terror
That actualy caught my eye.
What is it about?
bitch please
Oh yeah, LOK is absolute dogshit. That doesn't excuse ATLA's own writing failures, though - and I'm NOT talking about "The Great Divide".
Fingers crossed that the Eclipsa stuff is good
Did you not like the ending?
No counter points huh?
I'm dissatisfied with the entire cast of characters, the design of the main character, and the animation quality itself. That's not going to change in a few episodes.
Makes him look retarded. Honestly he looks like he came out of a special ed class for monks.
The show has more problems than just Ang though. The entire premise is flawed.
To put it bluntly Western tv cartoons are not fit for action. They are not allowed to be violent enough. There are some good action cartoons but the best ones have always been comedy and until you are allowed to have blood and death on tv that isn't going to change.
Not him but
>Painted in red, the word "VON" is all that is left behind after a terrorist attack on a nuclear facility in Japan. The government is shattered by their inability to act, and the police are left frantically searching for ways to crack down the perpetrators. The public are clueless—until, six months later, a strange video makes its way onto the internet. In it, two teenage boys who identify themselves only as "Sphinx" directly challenge the police, threatening to cause destruction and mayhem across Tokyo. Unable to stop the mass panic quickly spreading through the city and desperate for any leads in their investigation, the police struggle to act effectively against these terrorists, with Detective Kenjirou Shibazaki caught in the middle of it all.
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I personally didn't end up liking it.
Dude, I have serious issues with "The Crossroads of Destiny", let alone the ending.
(Though the lion turtle is NOT one of them at all.)
Why is Gravity Falls included in the list of early 00's shows?
Man, you're missing out on one of the best redemption stories, some of the best worldbuilding, and yes, some of the best action, in animation. Just because it's not overtly violent doesn't mean it has no merit.
I'm not surprised you didn't notice SDMI isn't an 00s show either. Thing is, both series have a lot more in common with 2000s shows than the shit the current Western animation industry spews out, at least in terms of writing.
Mystery actually seems to be the one cartoon genre than hasn't been completely taken over by talentless hacks... or hadn't rather, since I'm not exactly expecting more cartoons like those to come out any time soon.
The other person responded already. It has Yoko Kanno composing. She rarely writes music for a shit series. The backstory stays vague, and that's sort of fine. The main points of interest are the clever terrorist setups and the characters of the two boys. In a lot of ways it resembles Apollo on the Slope, just trade out modern terrorists and abuse of child geniuses for 60s jazz and Christianity.
>Mushishi
Oh that pretentious "seinen" bullshit? lol yea nah
Series has some of the best fight choreography animation of any series in the US and America. Sifu Kisu worked hard on developing all the styles. He's a cool bro as well, was lucky enough to meet him and see him do his thing a few years back.
Even if you know for a fact that you'll never like the character designs or plots, at least look up some of the fights. It's just gorgeous animation.
Calling it "seinen" is limiting. It's not a gender specific series. I've seen so many series and I'm hard pressed to find a series that carries the sort of atmosphere that Mushishi has. Mononoke sort of gets there, but for all its weirdness, it doesn't have that offputting yet comforting feel of Mushishi.
Haven't watched many, just the ones that are widely considered the greatest. And only a few of them can be considered better than TLA.
The choreography is amazing, but the fights are all but meaningless.
Not that that is a problem unique to Avatar, but yeah...
>They are not allowed to be violent enough.
Pft who gives a fuck.
I never liked Scooby Doo and never watch any series so I would not recognize the series title and when it was made.
Let me contexutalize this. If the only animation you have seen is Western stuff Avatar is probably mind-blowing. But to someone that knows anime there's nothing special there.
You think the animation looks good because during the key moments it's very detailed and fluid. However it is filled with inconistant and down right shoddy work in other parts. So no your animation is bad, it's good for western standards, but bad compared to the whole world of animation.
Likewise the world and characters are going to seem incredible if it's being compared to all of the comedy shows that dominate western tv or the shallow 80s/90s which were toy commercials.
The action scenes boring. No one can get hurt because it would upset the network censors and I wouldn't care if anyone gets hurt because the cast consists of ugly obnixious characters.
There's a reason the show was laughed at when they aired in it Japan and it left the air almost immediately. Because it can't compete and it's attempts at seriousness are downright laughable.
I don't hate western animation. But avatar is not a good show.
>Likewise the world and characters are going to seem incredible if it's being compared to all of the comedy shows that dominate western tv or the shallow 80s/90s which were toy commercials.
Nah it parallels the greats of anime.
Star and Steven are different types of the same problem. Star has a whole load of nothing orbiting a plot they never get around to (until season 2), and Steven thinks adding more unresolved plot threads does it a service. I like them both, especially Steven. The "nothing" gives space for character development and interactions, some good one-offs and humor.
But svtfoe could do with a lot of the first season being... better. Introduce the plot earlier, and use the dimension premise for more than just explaining magic and jokes. Do something before the 11th hour other than jokes. Have to admit, Ludo in season 2 almost makes season 1 worth it alone.
And SU could do with everything after the first season moving at a quicker pace with less shit episodes. Weaving separate narrative threads together is fine, but it would give the show a better sense of progression to, say, deal with one before thread 12 is introduced. They also fucked up the minute you tried to make Onion anything but creepy.
Your criticism doesn't say much aside from Western cartoons can't be as violent.
>Aang's design
Subjective, and no worse than the billions schoolboy As or belt and leather, short skirt in combat, red trench coat that have anime protags somewhere between boring and actually retarded.
>characters aren't likeable
The entire main cast play off each other and develop, even if they all start at "child kid boy". But that's a different shade of crap. Most anime, especially adventure or shounen, have man child, girl, edgy guy, stoic girl, thug, idiot, and pervert as their main cast. So, annoyances that develop versus tropes that might develop.
>it's boring
Again, subjective. Episodes I didn't like involved the ones that were less mature (season 1 mostly), and it never seemed slow. And for reference, I thuroughly enjoy .Hack//Sign and Lain. Of the anime I've tried to watch in the last few years, only a few have non-garbage pacing in the first 4-10 episodes.
Mystery Inc. is far, far darker and more interesting than anything else the franchise has ever produced. I'd give it a chance even if you never liked Scooby-Doo at all.
But you've only seen the first three episodes of the show. You're making these sweeping generalizations based on nothing more than a smug sense of assured eastern superiority.