Why people hate man of steel for being "out of character" when the movie and the trilogy as a whole is about Kal-El turning into the classic Superman though character development?
He was supposed to look more and more like his iconic comic version each movie of the trilogy, he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational.
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>Make an adaption of a well known character
>"Nah actually it's our OC but he will turn into that character you know and love by the very end"
This shit needs to fuck off forever.
Which is bad because he gets more and more confused every time he's on screen.
You dont know Superman OP, also you're a fag.
A three movie long origin story is not a good thing.
...
Because it's pa kents teachings that are meant to turn him into that.
Jesus, just stop with this shit. Even if they came out with a Man of Steel 4 that was incredible it still wouldn't retroactively make the movies that came before any less of a slog starring a boring character. I fucking love Superman and want nothing more than to see him in a good movie I even thing Caville can deliver but stop thinking that will somehow work as a pardon for these last two movies sucking ass.
I hear dying horses Clark!
Because he looks more OOC in BvS.
Also people would rather watch a movie about batman, than a trilogy of Bruce funding up to one day become batman. They paid to watch using batman.
People want to watch Superman, not "you might dislike this guy, but he will be Superman in the end, I swear!"
>He was supposed to look more and more like his iconic comic version each movie of the trilogy, he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational.
If I have to wait through 2 filler movies for them to get it right, then they fucked up big time
Yeah, I have nothing against Caville either, I actually think he looks the part and can act the part.
The problem with Superman isn't the action, or the casting (aside from Jimmy Olson and Lex Luthor). The problem is the fact that Goyer and Snyder got Supermans underlining ideology wrong. They turned the Kents into some Randian believing psychos instead of the loving people that they were. They tried to teach Superman it's more important to be individualistic then to be a hero, they tried to teach him it's more important to care for yourself then for others. Which is in absolute direct contrast of what Superman stands for.
But they don't mess up completely because Jor-El teaches him to love people more then the Kents do. If they had cut out Jor el, and just focused on the Kents and switched Jor-El's ideology with the Kents it would be more accurate.
"You will give the people an idea to strive towards. They will race behind you. They will stumble. They will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders."
That would have been a great quote for Jon Kent!
The writers also try to make it too dark and have him kill Zod, and destroy a city. Which to me is too big of a moment for a first movie. Could have been an epic moment, especially if this was a trilogy and it ends on that.
>He will turn into a hero after 9 hours of character development where he broods edgily like an angst-ridden necksnapping teenager, just be patient
Because you can't say stuff like "I'm sticking to the canon" and make your own charater who will turn into Superman after he dies. You especially can't do it when he fights someone and that fight costs thousands of lives and billions in property damage.
I liked MoS, but it's not hard to see why people didn't. BvS should have been World's Finest with Superman actually being Superman in the movie, and not just a mere minute before he sacrifices himself. I'll be so mad if he's not "muh" superman in JL after having to wait 4 years
>I liked MoS
>But it's not recognizeably the character of Superman
>Hopefully JL will actually portray Superman
Do you have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome for DC comics movies?
I wonder why the father that's concerned with his son's survival and integration into Earth's lifestyle wants him to stand out while the father that's well aware of his son's enhanced capabilities and desire to help others wants him to stay dormant.
MoS was an origin story with the end showing him stepping into the role of Superman, the costume, relationship with Lois, job at the planet, it was up from there, then BvS had him reluctant to do his job, he cared about an outlaw when he could have just zipped across the bay to fix everything there and make Gotham like Metropolis
MoS was fine, BvS was a massive slump that shouldn't have happened
Completely agree, especially regarding the "ideal over hero." Yes, Superman does serve as an example of good and positivity both in-universe and to us the reader. But that's not because Clark wants to be that way, he just wants to help people, no matter what they think of him. What Snyder and Goyer get wrong is that they focus so much on the Superman ideal that they forget what Superman does to enforce that ideal.
In the JL trailer when they talk about how inspirational Superman was, it falls flat because we barely saw him as a human who genuinely wanted to save people. You could argue that the montage of him helping people around the world was that, but the whole scene is ruined by its lack of positivity and humanity. The pint of the scene is to show the audience that Superman is needed in the world and gives hope to people. The message fails because it's just Superman preventing disasters and deaths. We don't see him comforting the people he saves. We don't see him sympathizing with the victims. If he did these things, we would understand why people admired him and we would have understood why people saw him as an ideal. But Snyder skips that step and jumps right into "Superman was an inspiration to humanity." Such a shallow attempt to justify an underdeveloped character and confusing themes.
>MoS was fine, BvS was a massive slump that shouldn't have happened
the DCEU was a mistake
He literally commits genocide in the first film.
Man of Steel and Wonder Woman was ok, suicide squad and BvS were rushed.
MCU also started terribly after Iron Man 1. Hulk,Thor and Iron Man 2 are all terrible movies but it recovered since then
The DCEU isn't a mistake, just BvS and Suicide Squad, the first was because Snyder somehow has such a boner for the DKR without having read the thing, be used it as justification for batman killing, even though batman doesn't kill anyone in the DKR. Like I said, BvS should have been World's finest, have them not trust eachother initially but then have them realise they're both fighting for the same thing and team up against something. The second was because nobody told Ayer no until WB had to step in and edit it on their own somehow making it worse.
I don't herald Johns as some master writer, but he knows his stuff when it comes DC, and if we get more movies about heroes like WW, and not deconstructions of characters that have yet to be constructed we should be fine
>decide to make power puff girls movie
>make their father a mad scientist who abuses them
>make the girls murderous criminals who are only out for themselves
>fans complain
>w-wait, they will be the TRUE characters in 6 more movies
>I-its character development not shit writing or lack of understanding of the source material
This shit is apropos of nothing. I was waiting for a superman thread, so fuck it.
Somebody I admire once said that superman is at his best when he's talking somebody out of suicide. I respectfully disagree.
Superman is at his best when he's Clark Kent. Superman is best when he's one of us. Somebody who has to bend over in the middle of the crowd to tie his shoe laces. Somebody whose pen leaks and ruins his dress shirt. Somebody who misses the subway. Somebody who doesn't know how to talk to that gorgeous female reporter he has the crush on. Somebody who drops his spaghetti.
Superman is only superman when the chips are down, and Clark Kent has to rise to the occasion.
This is something that gets missed.
This is some "muh head canon" bullshit man.
It's not his "origin story" where eventually he will stop acting like a angry video game character after 4 movies. The truth is so much simpler than that. They just made shitty Superman movies
MoS was an origin story, the plan was to make a Superman trilogy, I bet the plan was to make Superman into a proper Superman in MoS2, but then after the backlash WB forced in batman but let Snyder pretty much do what he wanted and fucked it up, so now it's building up to Superman over 4 movies (because he's not going to be in JL much)
movie 1:
>Superman is shit
movie 2:
>Superman is shit, dies
movie 3:
>???????????
BvS was not the original plan, they were going to do MoS2, the DCEU was not the original plan, it was going to be like the DKT. But WB being reactionary told them to stuff batman into it and fucked everything up. To be fair they probably would have fucked MoS2 at the time anyway
>The problem is the fact that Goyer and Snyder got Supermans underlining ideology wrong.
Yes. The problem with this series is that it simply doesn't believe in Superman.
"You'll believe a man can fly?" Not that tough in an age of spectacular special effects.
"You'll believe a man can be both strong AND good?" Much taller order for an age of cynicism and fighting-the-power. But that's what audiences need to be convinced of in order to be made to believe in Superman, because that's the foundation of what he is. And if the filmmakers don't believe that themselves...
But that's fucking stupid. Superman is the person he is because he was raised by good people, he shouldn't need three movies to turn him into classic supes. Superman should already be superman. I'm not even remotely interested in watching another dreary, dull piece of shit superman movie in the hopes that I might actually get to see superman.
>2013
>man of steel is more contentious than fucking anime
>arguments boil down to fans being pretentious morons and non-fans being elitist dickheads
>a big point is how faithful it is to the character who I never gave a shit about other than DCAU
>see it in theaters to make up my own mind
>thought it was flat-out average, forget the movie seconds after leaving theater
>get into Superman way later, read All-Star, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, At Earth's End
>really get into the character, he's really good when they bother to make him a nice guy like in pic related
>see webm of flight scene
>decide to give MoS another shot
>Liked it well enough. I've seen people complain about "DBZ fights" but it works better than comedy fights imo. Cavill and Michael Shannon do pretty good, and while Spess Jesus symbolism and STOP INVINCIBLE SON are still dumb, the "Man of Murder" thing is ridiculous baby screeching, what was he supposed to do?
>Sup Forums, 4 actual years later, are still having company wars to determine its quality
Sup Forums, I love you, but you're better than this. It's perfectly okay to like or not like a movie, but this is basically a Sup Forums thread with less feet. Be the board Superman knows you can be. bvs was poopoo tho
>I AM JESUS
>I AM JESUS
>I AM JESUS
>I AM JESUS
>The problem with Superman isn't the casting (aside from Jimmy Olson
There is nothing wrong with who they cast as Olsen, no one fucking wants a pathetic bastard stepchild annoying as fuck brat following Superman around.
>Nostalgia Critic
Fuck off Doug
what fucking trilogy are you even talking about?
>turning into the classic
>character development
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>They tried to teach Superman it's more important to be individualistic then to be a hero
When?
>they tried to teach him it's more important to care for yourself then for others.
Provably fucking wrong, after the "maybe" line Pa Kent immediately says "there is more at stake then our lives or the lives of those (directly) around us".
It was NEVER fucking about selfishness with Pa Kent.
>If they had cut out Jor el
But that would severely limit the Sci-fi focus they had in this film which was a godsend, once again you fucking people refuse to approach the film the way it was intended to be seen instead of your pathetic selfish vision of what it "should" be.
>The writers also try to make it too dark and destroy a city
No that factually did not fucking happen, you are proving yourself over and over again to being a lying fucking coward.
Only 1 skyscraper fell while Clark was fighting in Metropolis & he personally did ZERO structural damage to it.
>Which to me is too big of a moment for a first movie
"to me" is fucking irrelevant, that was the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT to throw a unprepared Clark into a monumentally dire situation from the get go.
>when he fights someone and that fight costs thousands of lives and billions in property damage
See above.
>he just wants to help people, no matter what they think of him
Then he would be a negligent fucking bastard when what they think of him results in senates getting blown the fuck up.
>even though batman doesn't kill anyone in the DKR
Writing wise it is vague, the "rubber bullets" line could have been sarcasm, but artwork-wise he absolutely did. We see Mutants being thrown into the air by massive explosions coming from the canon on the Bat Tank.
>>make their father a mad scientist who abuses them
Yes that to totally comparable to Pa Kent being concerned for the greater good of society.
>Yes. The problem with this series is that it simply doesn't believe in Superman.
False.
They very reasonably believe that a realistic world with realistic problems would be too much for a humanized Clark to handle.
>the "Man of Murder" thing is ridiculous baby screeching
God bless you for acknowledging this.
If you have to take 3 nearly fucking 3 hour long movies just to turn Superman into a likable character then you're beyond incompetent.
>he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational.
Superman learns that shit as a kid from his parents and his upbringing. He doesn't need to kill someone to learn that it's wrong, he doesn't need to find one person that loves him to see that the world is worth saving and he sure as hell doesn't need to learn how to be optimistic and inspirational by dying.
>"Maybe you should've let those kids die Clark"
>MoS was an origin story
Which is why is ended with him being a more traditional Superman.
>"Welcome to the Planet"
>"Happy to be here"
WHILE ACTUALLY FUCKING SMILING.
But then Snyder pissed it all away in BvS and managed to make him even more of an unlikable, uncaring dick than he was in MoS. But hey......at least we got a montage of Superman silently saving people while looking like he wants to kill himself, he was also totally smiling while he saved that girl, all you've gotta do to see it is pause, zoom in, brighten and it's right there.
>Hulk,Thor and Iron Man 2
I actually like Thor, but I'm not gonna try to defend it. I like it despite its flaws, but I still realize it has flaws.
>Yes that to totally comparable to Pa Kent being concerned for the greater good of society.
>you should have considered letting the children die, Clark
Fucking tard, here is your (You)
Speak for yourself, Jimmy is a great part of the Superman story and I'm pissed that Snyder killed him off. It's emblematic of the approach he took with the mythos, that being cynical and flippant
>you should have considered letting the children die, Clark
A confused and unsure Superman has to be earned. It has to play in contrast to the core of him. You can't start off with him not knowing how to be a hero
So they set him up to fail and wonder why people don't like it.
They say Superman can't be super and man both, if he is human he MUST faul, and can't be super, or else it is “unrealistic“
What? That's the only way to do it.
The issue is that he doesn't really do that.
Like maybe if BvS started with a much more sure Superman then sure.
But Superman shifted into harder self doubt.
And graduated from a scared uncertain Pa to a Ma who believes it's Superman's choice to be Superman and telling him fucking off is totally an option and Ghost Pa telling him that bad things will happen even when you do right by people.
It's just a dark at best bittersweet Superman nobody wanted.
Nobody wants a Superman where it's a "We've no choice but to keep moving forward" hope. They want a "Everything is going to be okay" hope. And they can't keep waiting til' the next movie to make that Superman.
Especially if the next one is going to be evil brainwashed Superman.
Because nobody wanted to wait three movies for that, and having him become the “real“ Superman after getting killed -which should be traumatic - is the most unrealistic shit I ever heard.
Especially from movies that say they are oh so realistic
To be fair, the DCEU gave up on the "guise this what is REALLY be like!!!!11!" angle in BvS
i love man of steel. and i loved dawn of justice. i love his scenes with his mother
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>the world's too big mom
>then make it small
i love his scenes with his father
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>I miss you son
>I miss you too dad
i love when he cried on lois' shoulder after killing zod. i loved the diner scene where the waitress told him no, calm down. i loved seeing him in his cape i loved seeing him in the car arguing with his parents the way a teenager does. I love Superman as Clark Kent first, Superman second.
Hulk is unironically one of the best MCU movies, though. And Cap, which came out right after Thor, was great.
>i love his scenes with his father
Yeah, who wouldn't love scenes where Pa Kent tells Superman that he shouldn't have saved drowning children? Or that he should stand there and watch his father die just so a few strangers wouldn't know his secret?
are you a parent?
>he's still learning how to be optimistic and inspirational
Intentions are irrelevant when they don't translate to screen. I don't think there's enough forward momentum in the character development of his cape movies to convince or satisfy people. That's on Snyder's shoulders.
Snyder is a capable director with bad storytelling instincts which fail him when he's trying to work with dense stories. He should go back to doing movies with more straightforward plotting like Dawn of the Dead, where he can freely indulge in his visuals.
No, but I'm not retarded enough to think that my invincible son's privacy is more important than a bunch of kids dying.
Telling Clark to let him die makes a lot more sense, and would be forgivable if it wasn't for that other scene. But with both of them, it just makes Pa Kent retarded.
>i love when he cried on lois' shoulder after killing zod.
I love when he and Lois made out on the ashes of thousands while thousands more cried out for help.
>I love Superman as Clark Kent first, Superman second.
I love that too, it's just a shame that both Clark and Superman are unlikable dicks in the DCEU.
you don't understand what loyalty and being responsible for a child means.
>while thousands more cried out for help
hmm. thousands are probably crying for help right now, why don't you help them? why aren't you giving every spare minute to take care of other peoples needs?
Man of Steel and BVS is too real for capecasuals
Any parent who would rather let a bus full of children die than let rumors spread of their kid being a superhero is an asshole. That's not loyalty, it's idiocy.
Clark wasn't in danger. If it was a situation where he might've died, maybe I could agree with you. But this was Pa Kent being selfish.
wtf does that even mean?
I'm not in the middle of an active disaster zone that was essentially caused by me (some of it directly) I don't have super powers, and probably most important of all I'M NOT FUCKING SUPERMAN.
Something about Batman getting raped in prison, probably by the Joker.
There's no expectation for Clark to spend every minute of his life saving people.
But this was right after the biggest tragedy the world has ever seen. And he was the most qualified person on the planet to help out. And he was right fucking there.
>too autistic to enjoy character development
ok
Character development isn't inherently good, you know.
>I'M NOT FUCKING SUPERMAN.
neither is clark, yet.
BvS wasn't that bad.
Ok, let's rephrase that then:
I'm not a guy with super speed, super strength, invulnerability, and the power of flight.
Also, ending Superman's origin story without him being superman is pretty fucking stupid.
>And he was right fucking there.
and he helped. he killed zod because he had to.
Well he's not anything at that point, considering the sum of his character is shown through childhood flashbacks and the most basic fucking daddy issues I've seen outside of the new Tomb Raider games.
Clark has zero functional personality in MoS.
He does become Superman at the end of MoS, they just retconned it hard and Snyder expected his autistic fanbase to scream "THAT'S THE POINT" over and over to the point that people would give up pointing out that flaw.
>ending Superman's origin story without him being superman is pretty fucking stupid.
depends on how you see superman. i think that's the crux isn't it, we see superman in different ways
>Clark has zero functional personality in MoS.
you've seen the film and you really think that? i thought the main argument against his character was that he was too human and flawed?
>you've seen the film and you really think that?
Of course I do, there's nothing to him. Childhood flashbacks aren't enough to build an adult character, and the grown-up version is entirely beholden to My Two Dads-tier emotional conflicts.
I don't know anything about him as a person. The character is an utter blank slate for the first half and Screenwriting 101 for the second.
>inb4 that's the point
Then it's a shit point. I don't care about your intent when it's a fundamentally uninteresting character, just because you have a concept doesn't make it a good one.
unlike a lot of other superman interpretations i thought he had that quiet kindness and integrity about him. i found him interesting. i didn't like superman very much before MOS. i thought he was staid and totally flat, this movie gave him personality. It's funny how we interpret things differently.
Depends on how you use character development.
>unlike a lot of other superman interpretations i thought he had that quiet kindness and integrity about him
Either Cavill doesn't have the chops to pull that off, Goyer can't write that successfully or Snyder can't direct that properly, because he came off as a sad lumberjack for most of he movie.
I think the problem with the people who dislike the current DCEU approach to Superman is that they view the entire thing entirely through fan POV and have this unreasonable notion that it has to be an entire foregone conclusion in the story that Clark's going to be Superman and everything has to build up to that idea, with him always learning these incremental life lessons that define him as Superman later on. He can't falter or ever be lost since there's a not a convenient plot device to guide him to the answers immediately. They hate the concept that Clark doesn't always find the straight path to everything. He has to immediately put on the costume and be in control of his powers when he's an adult at the age of 25 or whatever.
And that's entirely wrong way to look at it, that largely works when he already is a fully formed and iconic static version of Superman in the story and you do a quick flashback to those lessons.
It's also a bad idea to insist he's perfect and already learned everything by the end of the first movie. That's not how you write an organic franchise if you're doing a character oriented approach, like DCEU is doing. It works for Marvel where they've become largely just action comedies and story is just excuse for the action.
It's far more interest to see Clark little by little learning different things about being a hero throughout multiple movies, rather than be 100% competent in one movie and then in the sequels bumble around mostly due to the script saying he can't do X, Y and Z until the end. If he doesn't, it'd a bit like what the fans bitch about CW's the Flash. Once Barry can already time travel and do all the speedfore tricks, it's stupid that he gets BTFO nearly every episode by the rogue of the week instead of just defeating them in one second. Only now you'd have bigger problems for the entire franchise, questioning why doesn't Clark fly around helping Batman, Wonder Woman, etc. for every solo movie and fix it instantly, etc.
not to me.
I really really REALLY hate that part.
Like, it's the only moment where Snyder thinks it's a good way to show Superman being a hero, which is painting it as a completely awful thing Superman is forced to do
>I think the problem with the people who dislike the current DCEU approach to Superman is that they view the entire thing entirely through fan POV
It's hard to take your argument seriously when you start from a false premise.
Peter has one, continuous character arc over the entire Raimi-Man trilogy and you don't hear people complaining that he wasn't 100% Spider-Man yet. Snyder just did it poorly.
> He can't falter or ever be lost since there's a not a convenient plot device to guide him to the answers immediately. They hate the concept that Clark doesn't always find the straight path to everything.
Yeah it's not like an entire generation grew up on the Timmverse Clark, who has flaws and foibles and actual human emotions and ended up birthing a whole new group of fans out of that interpretation and never saw him as boring.
>It's also a bad idea to insist he's perfect and already learned everything by the end of the first movie
They literally reset his character arc in BvS. MoS ends with him becoming Superman, then they retcon it so Snyder can try and make some vague point of post-9/11 America and rip off Dark Knight Returns at the same time. What they did at the beginning of BvS was inexcusable, it's practically a soft reboot of the character between movies because Snyder is such a hack that he can't figure out how to write an actual Superman story.
>such a boner for the DKR without having read the thing
I think he just watched the animated movie, because the fight scene is literally copypasted from that until he had to start coming up with things.
>They literally reset his character arc in BvS
You're entirely wrong. MoS ends with Clark adopting Superman's name as an identity that he uses when saving people in public. That in no way implies he's suddenly become the elder statesman Superman of the comcis.
BvS continues his arc by making him now learn how to shoulder the burdens of being a superhero in public light and not being able to control how people will perceive him and associate realpolitik implications to his every action. It's also his first encounter with a giant smear campaign designed to discredit him.
Honestly. I would call the movie a 3/10 without the fucked up pa kent.
Pa knocks it down to .3
It's not an awful thing that he's forced to do, Snyder and Terrio are just making the rightful observation that in the real world if there was a similar person to Superman operating internationally he'll get both condemnation and really weird religious worship.
It's not Superman that's dark, it's the world around him.
>You could argue that the montage of him helping people around the world was that, but the whole scene is ruined by its lack of positivity and humanity
But the point of that scene is to depict how not all of humanity will accept him fully DESPITE his continuing benevolent actions and how he's still a figure of controversy due to inherent human fear and mistrust of things they can't fully comprehend.
You know whats sad about this whole thing? Its that people have to explain to others what the hell is happening because the writing is so bad?
Or maybe people are just too dumb to follow a movie that isn't that complicated.
>i thought he had that quiet kindness and integrity about him.
Based on fucking what? We literally never see him interacting with normal people or looking happy to be around people no named Lois or MARTHA!!!. Or even just being a normal person.
His entire character is angst and woe is me mixed with a HEAVY does of Jesus.
>BvS continues his arc by making him now learn how to shoulder the burdens of being a superhero in public light and not being able to control how people will perceive him and associate realpolitik implications to his every action.
That's pretty nice and all......but that entire supposed plot that you claim his arc was about was just completely fucking dropped after the bombing. It's just never mentioned again.
based on his interaction with everybody in the film, based on the way he carries himself. BVS didn't do such a good job but MOS i loved him the whole way through.
>based on his interaction with everybody in the film
Who does he properly interact with besides Lois, his mother and his father in flashbacks?
>based on the way he carries himself.
Like a mopey angst ridden teenager?
with the people he saved and the soldiers who took him in, how he spoke to Jor El, the Priest. i don't want to argue with you. i loved this interpretation, of course you don't have to agree with me. there are people who think Lois was perfectly cast and i couldn't disagree more.
Man of Steel made Superman Returns look good.
That arc is resolved with the scene with Ghost Dad atop of the mountain, when Clark decides to come back. He acknowledges that he cannot control everything and when bad shit happens he just has to work harder and do better.
>WHILE ACTUALLY FUCKING SMILING.
Why people are so autistic about the smiling I will never understand.
>But this was Pa Kent being selfish.
Guess what parents do? Spoiler alert: act selfish when it concerns the security of their own kid.
>>too autistic to enjoy character development
>ok
It's been TWO movies, and JL will be the third. We are still waiting for that "development".
Yeah but why change the way Pa Kent died at all?
In the comics he died of a heart attack and Clark drops literally everything he's doing because he realizes he can't hear his dad's heartbeat anymore. That manages to have way more of an emotional impact than the movie's bs
Snyderman is the only superhero where it takes 3 movies for him to actually be something like his classic self. Imagine if Peter was still growing into it during Spider-man 3, or if Tony was still using the mach 1 armor after Avengers, or if Batman Begins didn't have him actually beginning, Bruce doesn't gain a proper cowl until Rises.
That's what this is. That's what people are are defending. Slow burns are one thing but after almost six hours of movie it's time to check if there's a fire there at all.