When does Sup Forums think marvel went bad?
I used to think it was when the 2010s hit, but I've read some pretty good recents runs like Avenging Spider-Man and Jason Aaron's God Butcher. I feel like I could say it was when ANAD started but that'd be too easy.
2004
Avengers Disassembled
Mid 2000's is when the rot started. It's merely been picking up pace since then, with less good titles seeping through the cracks with each passing year. Now we're at a point where they've fucked things up so profoundly it spills over into books that would otherwise have been unaffected, so there is no escape from the butchered, mutilated, sorry thing they're calling the Marvel Universe nowadays.
This, around AD and House of M is when the modern Marvel philosophies of events out the ass and pissing off fans began.
I think House of M was the event that started the massive nosedive in quality control. Of course we've gotten good books since, but the bad's outweighed the good for over a decade.
I don't think it's the writers as much as the editors. Everyone is too scared to hurt feefees, so nobody reads a draft and says "this is trash, do it again". Knowing current Marvel editors, they think all they do is spellcheck.
>I read a few I liked, so it couldn't have been bad then!
It's almost as if the very idea of a whole publisher's output being bad for years at a time when at such a size and scale is nonsense or something.
Overall quality control has been on the decline for decades, but that doesn't mean they "went bad" at some point. It's a continuation of existing trends. There will always be good books popping up every year or so, whether you care for them or not. To pretend it "actually wasn't bad yet" because you liked Avenging but write off people who enjoyed books like Vision is silly.
I would never touch it but
is this squirrel girl shit still going under this artist
Always. Cape comics have for the most part always been bad, but you only started caring about it when they started going after your sensibilities.
Yup
1991. There are a few decent things after that but 1991 is a major shift in editorial tone and market strategy.
That change was underway for a while but the snowball was rolling too fast to stop by the time the Simonsons and Claremont left.
Yea, I'll concede in that I probably should've worded my sentiment better, but I think that viewing this current dip in quality as a continuation of a trend is a moot point. It's agreeable that marvel's done something new with alienating a good portion of its readers, saturating itself with events, etc.. To rely on the fact that good exceptions like The Vision and The Ultimates exist as a basis for your claim that this current trend is nothing new is lazy. There's a reason why this current decline's been called to attention more, and I bet you it's more than something as superficial as "muh sjw marvel".
>Talks about Marvel going bad
>Uses Panels from one of the best comics out right now.
For me it was civil war, more specifically the wvents leading up to Civil war.
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go away, Ryan
>left hand
>six fingers
QUALITY
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CA:CW movie. When the MCC got kicked off the movies.
What lead to them nuking the classics and pushing the new characters as a way of sabotaging the movies, see when Nazi cap started.
Without the classics had to resort to sales tricks to stay afloat.
Sometime around the Disney takeover and the hollowing-out of the editorial staff around 2011. There were still some good books after that, but a lot of what we've been seeing lately - poorly produced books, editing mistakes, the near-inability to make good "bread n' butter" superhero comics - seems to have started around then.
You can say what you want about the original Civil War but it's a well-produced event, while Civil War 2 is just poorly produced and poorly planned all through.
1939
>well-produced
>endless delays
>every tie-in writer disagreeing about who was right
>even Millar himself couldn't really get it across
>stupid, pointless shock deaths
>completely arbitrary sides chosen
>nonsensical ending
almost every problem with CW2 is present in CW1
The 90s.
I'd say Civil War 1 started the trend. It was slow at first but as more quality writers left, editing got worse, and the front office was dominated by Bendis, Alonso, etc by Heroic Age everything was garbage.
>>every tie-in writer disagreeing about who was right
I think CWII was better about this than CWI, I think most writers and Bendis sided with Tony.
There is, and has always been good books and bad ones. It's not complete shit, it never was.
There have been bad comics as long as there have been comics. Just because Captain America's shield drinking blood in the 90s didn't trigger you doesn't mean it wasn't fucking terrible.
I think the decline started in 87, personally, with the first cracks prior to that being Secret Wars 2, the New Universe and X-Factor.
Shame, because Marvel was on fire for the first half of the 80s.
That would be the case if Marvel wasn't selling abysmally right now. Face it, the company's in bad shape and thinking that it's just a passing trend is willfully ignorant.
What's really odd is all of the late 80s artistic triumphs that were surrounded by bad organization. Daredevil by Nocenti and JRJR, Silvestri on X-Men, Gruenwald's Captain America was still on track, Englehart's baffling but awesome Fantastic Four.
Squirrel Girl deserves better than this shit
>When does Sup Forums think marvel went bad?
Grant Morrison's X-Men run, especially since it laid the foundation for pretty much every horrid thing Marvel's done since then
and this is coming from someone who otherwise is a huge Grant Morrison fan
>most writers and Bendis sided with Tony
Always the progressive, Marvel.
But the biggest problem with post-New X-men X-men is that they undid all the good stuff.
M-Day, for example.
Shut up, Millar.
I'm not sure but I think that's supposed to be the folding of her pinky.
Around Marvel Zombies 4 or 5
the thing is that stuff wouldn't have happened if we hadn't gotten Grant's run in the first place, so it cycles back to being Grant's fault again
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>Knowing current Marvel editors, they think all they do is spellcheck.
Heh...and they can't even do that well!
JRJR/Nocenti Daredevil was the standout for me in that era. I wasn't a great lover of the SilvestrI X Men, aside from the Brood on earth/ Genosha stuff. I was really disappointed when Claremont left New Mutants in favor of Simonson, it hurt the book straight away IMO
So basically Disassembled, House of M, New Avengers, and Secret War. Aka Fuck Bendis.
Can someone post some examples of marvel's editing mistakes? I keep seeing posts about it, but I've never encountered anything myself.
Making the Avengers flagship franchise ruined everything. It can work for the movies but not in comics. Otherwise it wouldn't have needed a rebirth back in 96 and again in 97
This art makes her look like she is suffering from a severe case of whiplash.
Honest question, why marvel pay money for someone to draw this?It's simply terrible and lazy art.
I'd argue that the point of no return, was post-Secret Wars V.
You had an assortment of hope spots between the nightmare that was Avengers Disassembled, House of M, Civil War, One More Day/Brand New Day, Fear Itself, and AvX that could keep the company going.
It wasn't until post-Secret Wars V that Marvel pretty much killed everything remotely good company-wide.
Everything went to shit after Secret Wars V.
All the major franchise books were fucked, the rape of the X-Men was in full swing along with the rape of Captain America, Uncanny Avengers became a generic Avengers book, FF was gone, Avengers was crawling with minority tokens, Scarlet Witch/Vision once again irrevocably broken up, and two of the most toxic crossovers happened back to back (Civil War 2 and Secret Empire).
The hilarious thing though? Fucking Hickman saw it coming: he even wanted to have the first issue of the Secret War V titled "The Perfect Jump Off Point". He fucking knew what was coming.
The funny thing?
Secret War 4 would have been a far far far far better story to have gotten rid of the Classic Avengers line-up/introduce the Bendis Avengers.
Basically, Clint/Wanda/Vision/Carol/Thor rage-quit over Cap being involved with Fury committing mass murder.
She-Hulk leaves the team to help Scott Lang mount a case to win back custody of his daughter.
Nu-Captain Britain gets decursed by Doctor Strange and retires
Tony exposes Jan as having lied to Clint about false instances of abuse committed by Hank. Clint tells her to go fuck herself, reconciles with Hank only for the Skrulls to attack Hank and Clint. Clint is killed, Hank captured/replaced with a Skrull.
Vision forms Young Avengers when Cassie's powers manifests, along with other kids; two of which Vision thinks might be his long lost kids.
Wanda becomes obsessed with bringing Hawkeye back to life. Eventually Wanda finds the Infinity Gauntlet and the rest of the Avengers find out and become fearful of what will happen via Layla Miller, who warns that Wanda will do something horrible with the Gauntlet.
Quicksilver finds her and convinces her to use the Gauntlet to fix the world along with bringing Clint back and she does. House of M then happens and when it all starts to fall apart, she uses the Gauntlet to "No More Mutant" Earth.
>Secret Wars V
There was a Secret Wars III and IV? Where?
I miss cute Doreen, the one who baby sat for the Avengers.
Secret Wars 3 was a single issue of Fantastic Four, and Secret Wars IV is Secret War
Secret War is absolutely not a "Secret Wars", that's retarded.
yeah well Marvel is retarded, what more do you want
when Bendis and Brevoort pushed for Spider-Man to become an Avenger, willfully ignorant that the Avengers are not just Marvel's Justice League
I liked Disassembled, remember it came on the heels of Austen's run, so in comparison was miles better.
I even liked the events up until Siege. Felt like a cohesive universe. After that about 2009 quality nosedived.
Except that they never referred to Hickman's Secret Wars as "Secret Wars V", only you did that. Its name is, for all intents and purposes, Secret Wars 2015.
>I liked Disassembled
Then you're a fucking imbecile.
The truth is even weirder. There were some minor reports of some writers how editors were rewriting stuff behind their backs. The guy who wrote Spider-Man 700.1-700.5 mentioned that when he grabbed the final product he basically went "WTF, I didn't write this dialogue", etc.
oh, and he also said that a lot of editors actually have an ambition of being writers, and rewrites are something common, at least for low-tier writers.
Eh, I think that the decline started in 1974, when marvel writers became self-indulgent. It's also when the first redundant teams started, like Defenders
>when did x go bad
>picture from something Sup Forums agrees overall was a universal fuckup
Every hour with these kinds of threads. Maybe things don't just up and die, maybe there are just ups and downs and you get shitty stuff sometimes but then better stuff later when the people responsible are gone and the fads they were trying to appeal to shift.
A very rare opinion, but also painfully true. "Everyone is Avenger" is full cancer. Alas, Brevoort always wanted Avengers to be the flagship
This. It should be a motto of every X-thread
The first Civil War was the beginning of the end.
>When does Sup Forums think marvel went bad?
2012. That's when they went full SJW pandering and had an overal degeneration in art quality.
When was Clone Saga? Thats when. That was the mark of everything going down the shitter from then on.
1986.
Titles stood almost entirely on their own prior to that, and then suddenly: "Hey kids, if you want to see what happens next, check out Secret Wars!"
Early 2000s, for instance, bounced back a bit near 2010, then in 2011 started going downhill again, hasn't stopped since.
She recently got an award!
Gilleon's Young Avengers. You can't deny that it created the current Marvel atmosphere.
the first half of the 80s is the start of the decline champ
>Ramping up retarded event culture is Morrison's fault
>House of M is Morrison's fault (your tautological retardation here is just that )
>OMD is Morrison's fault
>ANAD is Morrison's fault
You are retarded, Joe Quesada and Axel Alonso fucked the company
They gave her an award so guess those are worthless now.
>it spills over into books that would otherwise have been unaffected
What I don't understand is how tom king managed to convince marvel not to make him tie his book into civil war two when a vision of the future was a plot point.
When they let Dan Slott take over Spidy it all went down hill. Spock should've never been a thing.
Spock should have been a single issue story or a 3 issue mini.
Secret War isn't Secret Wars.
1961
Atlas Comics was a real winner of a name, they should have stuck with it. A dumb name change was the first sign something was wrong.
Marvel considers it, given that they included it in their Secret Wars mega box set.
bendis, brevoort, quesada, ike, slott, hopeless
if all these people died would it fix marvel?
asking for a friend
You're gonna get a reply because that Squirrel Girl is one of the best bait
Man I hate that fucking book it will forever exist
>you're gonna get a reply
>80 replies later
AND user DID SPEAK AND THE PEOPLE HAILED HIM AS PROPHET
This. After civil war Marvel never had more than 2 or 3 good books.
Didn't civil war get one back then?
Would amanat lose her job there if it happned?
she'd probably become EIC
That would probably make things worse.
W-wow. I hadn't imagined that was possible, but I'm [LITERALLY SHAKING] right now.
Mid-nineties. Though I would put some of their shady shit even earlier than that.
>I liked Disassembled, remember it came on the heels of Austen's run, so in comparison was miles better.
That's not saying much.
But I will agree that the events still felt cohesive despite being stupid, until after Siege ended.
Hard to believe that there's something lower than rock bottom, but that would do it.
You seriously don't think House of M wouldn't have happened without Morrison's run? It sounds like the kind of thing Ike would call for when he got flustered with Fox.
I just noticed her left ear is colored wrong. Jesus. I'm okay with the low-detail art but this is a travesty.
Of course she'll become the new EIC, do you think that Modern Marvel would pass up a chance to have the first female POC EIC and not constantly brag about it?
they'll probably make Bendis or Waid EIC before Amanat
I strongly disagree with all of you.
About what?
Which is why it's stupid. If every hero is a Avenger then what's special about being on the team. If anything it makes a hero more interesting not being one.
August 31, 2009
The day Disney bought Marvel.
I think that overlaps with "Bendis writing Avengers" and "Avengers Disassembled". It would definitely be the moment where things heavily started to go wrong.
When their movies stopped being like Blade and Men In Black and became like Thor and Iron Man.
Disassembled. Derpified SG/SJW/Everyone's an Avenger stuff just accelerated it.
It started to fall with Civil War. Then I think the full effects started to take place around Marvel Now when Marvel went to full on wank mode for the normie audience.