Is pol aware of the historical parallels between the collapse of empires in history and current american situation?
how long will america last before it collapses?
>but it wont collapse
>but we can reverse the trend
So far there's not a single historical example where any empire reversed the trend that lead to it's collapse.
So far america is doing the same mistakes Romans did.
15?
>pol
>>>/reddit/ð›²
Is there any paralel in roman history to current election and trump?
Read the Fate of Empires, it obviously has its flaws bit I think it makes some pretty good connections to where we are now, AKA the Age of Decadence
burn this shit down tbqh. I have enough ammo and rations to ride out the race war in my safe space bunker.
DELET
I just finished reading it.
funny how I see nobody mention it outside Sup Forums.
What are you talking about? The Romans successfully reversed course a few times. Byzantium literally stood over 1000 years.
Ultimately no Empire stands forever.
Probably, i suck at history . I'm just saying 15 minutes is how long they'll last
Rome >>>>>>> America
They accomplished way more than you Burgers ever did.
The election of the populist reformer, Tiberius Gracchus. Hopefully Trump doesn't share the same fate as Gracchus and JFK. It usually doesn't end well for the populist when he challenges the establishment.
there's not a single one roman empire fucking iliterate retard.
youtube.com
watch this.
feel mind blow at history.
Rome literally never laded on the moon
Well if you read it then you know that the exact cause of each empire's downfall is unknown and usually an event happens that isn't the exact cause but a catalyst. For the US I can't help but think the huge debt that the nation has, 20+ trillion that is never just going to disappear
>So far there's not a single historical example where any empire reversed the trend that lead to it's collapse.
saged
There has been. But they eventually went on a decline again that they didn't/couldn't stop.
en.wikipedia.org
wow, Trump is fucked bro.
name one example of a civilization that reversed the age of decay.
I think america will collapse when the petrodolar loses it's power.
That Sargon guy also did one too
Rome did a few times.
It's the reason it transitioned to empire, because the republic was so inept and corrupt it could no longer stand.
Emperors however could not even gaurantee their own safety as they were assassinated and replaced by their own fucking bodyguards leading to constant strife and instability.
>"Then the poor, who had been ejected from their land, no longer showed themselves eager for military service, and neglected the bringing up of children, so that soon all Italy was conscious of a dearth of freemen, and was filled with gangs of foreign slaves, by whose aid the rich cultivated their estates, from which they had driven away the free citizens."
Nasty.
yes,yes many parrallels, there will be a crash, and a civil conflict but the difference between rome and the US is the constitution and bill of rights, they are unalienable and as long as history maintains them in writing, americans somewhere will fight for them, so it's not a hopeless situation even though society may temporarily collapse
there's diferent stages in the roman history.
there's has been dozens of civilizations with complete diferent legal systems.
all collapse.
also rome had a constitution and senate and they also collapsed.
political system is irrelevant because the forces that destroy it are the same.
Yes it will collapse but not based on the dollars relation to petrol, but when the world starts trading in any other currency, but the founding principles are what allow free market success and are truths so as long as the are still known and understood to a populace, there is a possibility of recovery
>funny how I see nobody mention it outside Sup Forums.
That's a major problem. I think that paper is a key element in the hope for avoiding the downfall. We just need more people reading and thinking about it.
As for your OP, yes, the parallels are frightening.
I do think we can avoid it. Another key element in allowing us to reverse course is the internet, though only if it remains uncensored. At no point in history were people able to communicate so freely, and in so much mass. This allows facts and perceptions to spread in a way so fundamentally different from ever before. This allows new ideologies to form and spread and ultimately as he notes in the fate of empires, there isn't any sort of intractable problem which leads to the fall so much as a sort of malaise and nihilism.
Historically empires last 250 years.
Source is I'm to lazy to look it up.
You do it.
Sq
Yes, but roman constitution isn't comparable to the american constitution merely because those devices share the same nomenclature
it's been on the works to challenge the petrodollar.
Gadafi and Hussein tried but their countries got invaded.
So far China is hoarding gold, same as russia, waiting to make the first move to move away from the petrodollar.
Yeah, I find surprising how noone mention it, yet everyone thinks feminism, inmigration, welfare are somehow unique to this era.
the political system is irrelevant, because the forces that make the empire collapse is a welfare state, people not working, taxation not being enough to pay the fiscal debt, having a military overspending, moral decay, massive inmigration.
All civilizations suffered the same, all collapse because the goverment became too big and couldn't simply afford entitled people.
Yes. Most likely we will turn out like the Roman republic and become some sort of empire. The only thing that remains to be seen is who will be the one to make the shift. Who will be our Augustus Caesar?
Holy shit OP your a fucking poet, a scholar, you are a fucking genius. How did you gain the knowledge necessary to see the parallels between the U.S. and the Roman empire. I'm astounded that it took this long to see it. I always knew that all of the good information made it to Sup Forums first. I'm writing on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram right now. People need to know. We need to alert the people. A revelation has been made. Our day is coming. Please help us when we fall. Please!!!!! REEEEEEEEEE
I believe an economic crash is not avoidable at all, in any way. I believe the US can recover, but to do so it will have to bring the dollar back onto a backing, bring free market back into domestic business, and then default on all debt and fight any wars that come consequentially from that action. Other than that prescription, I don't believe a full recovery is possible,... other than just stealing and exploiting neighboring nation's resources.
The cost of maintaining the empires became higher than their ability to produce the necessary resources to keep up with the cost.
Signs:
>inflation
>growing administrative costs and size of bureaucracy
>growing number of laws and regulations putting restrictions on freedom
>decreased social mobility
>increased taxes
>increased immigration to compensate for lost in domestic productivity
It's happening right now.
This is not only US problem, it's all our western civilizations concerned.
Look at our building, there all the same, we are the third Rome.
fuck off retard.
go shitpost in a blacked thread damn idiot.
You need to get rid of welfare state first, good luck doing that.
yeah, the same deal is happening in europe.
based on historical data, how much time do you think we got left?
Molymeme did his own autistic 2.5 hour version that was mostly about currency if I remember correctly
you don't understand, i'm aware of petrodollar warfare theory, it is true but only in the brief period of time that it took place, the reality is that it is not a conspiracy based soley on oil, it is the equivalent entire dependence of the dollar's value. Because the dollar has no backing, the US must do gymnastics to constantly coerce foreign countries to export their real goods into the united states for surplus fiat currency, it's not just oil, oil is only a fraction, it's the entire US industrial military complex function at present, all goods, any goods that can achieve this purpose. As for saying "systems of gov." the US is totally unique in it's constitution, you should read the anti federalist papers if you haven't done so, the United States founding fathers were literal philosophers, all precipitated into the rebellion of the US, the BoR, Constitution, and DoI are totally unique and provide American's authority to take arms, lesser legal means of correcting government. So to discard it comparitively to past world gov. is a complete oversight. There is and never has been anything like it.
you're making the same mistakes all those civilizations that collapsed did.
your civilization is like an old guy trying to compete with younger rivals (chinese).
I can't expect a diferent outcome if you're making the same mistakes all civilizations make before their collapse.
your political system is irrelevant to the matter.
>America
The entire western world is on the verge of collapse
We're in an era of decadence
I should say that i don't think you're wrong, the US is going to collapse, but you you're not considering that we have one million combat veterans of military fighting age, we have many citizens with a deep, thorough understanding of our Constitution, republicanism and inalieanable rights, we have more firearms in circulation than people, who do you think own them? People on welfare? no. I own like 30 assault rifles. I have friends that own transferable machineguns belt feds, i have one friend that literally collects tanks, all in the ownership of private citizens.
molymeme did a two hour version of this. Yeah there are parallels, but we've never had a global economy in history like this before. The only way America "falls" is by becoming part of something greater.
america wont be able to sustain all the goverment spending, and taxation will striffle your population until it will welcome the foreigners, happy to escape the dictatorship of their rulers.
I was just going to make a thread about this. I'm feeling spooked since I recently saw how easily visible the cycles are in Chinese history, and then there's all of the political chaos we have going on now.
Shitty thing is there's no way of telling what a western collapse would look like. Historically, collapse involved a lot of violence and power struggles, but those things don't really happen at the drop of a hat in first world nuclear powers. Obviously the governments will need to go, and this requires a real happening. I can't imagine an external force stepping in, and if it must be the people, then they need to be pushed out of their comfort zone. Loss of jobs. Loss of money, or a functioning government. Loss of food supply. Once the gears stop turning people will get up off their asses real quick.
There's no telling how that will look, but it will be extremely understandable in hindsight. And whatever it is, the aftermath will reflect our reaction to the problem. Personally I hope the cucks and shitskins somehow kick it off directly so we can deport them all.
I do think the fall of USA will be an economic collapse.
right now there's a current global war, but not on military terms, but economic warfare.
there's no point of conventional war when you have nukes, but russian and chinese hope to make the american economy collapse.
...
What i was trying to impress to you is that we have a recipe in play here that has a completely unknown outcome. Those circumstances are unique and never existed in societies before. So I agree with you that the path tge US is taking will lead to a collapse, it is already inevitable, but the outcome of that collapse, if it just finishes off america and leads to something new, is not certain by any means. Whatever happens, it will certainly not look anything like the way rome putted out, i guarantee you that.
I do agree we can't predict the future, but we have a script all empire and civilizations followed on similar terms.
We can't predict the future, but we can still try to predict the trends that we will follow, if we use the historical examples.
right now you have a younger civilization that is trying to take your spot.
just like we can guess the outcome of some old basketball star playing against a rising teenager one.
You're right to say its very old, but America has the smartest people in the world within its borders. I have to have hope that when we do a major restoration of our government that our best minds will be more capable of applying what we have learned over the past 250 years about political frameworks and human psychology to the creation of a new government.
The danger in any political theatre though is that sense of urgency in times of change which drives people with the best and worst of intentions to put forward irrational and counter-productive plans for change. No doubt the evangelicals would refuse to participate in the creation of the new government if the atheists demanded that "Under God" be removed from the pledge of allegiance, and so on for every single cultural difference between various American groups.
There are several solutions to this problem as I see them:
1) Increase the common experience of the American citizenry - through a draft into the military for instance, in order to introduce the unity necessary to carry out a trying thing as trying to remake government.
2) Focus entirely on apolitical and structural reforms rather than specific political issues - eg, changing the voting system to ranked choice voting, allowing states more autonomy by increasing state taxes and decreasing federal taxes, open up the electoral college, congress and the senate to more parties to increase representation.
3) Focus on issues for which there is large popular support.
I see the main problem as a lack of representation. When everything falls under the labels of Republican or Democrat, there's a sense of a lack of being heard and represented, which occurs because that is exactly what is happening. How is it that Brazilian monkeys can have 15 parties, but the US can only manage two?
That's true, there will be tectonic shifts in global dynamics in our natural lifetimes. --Population density is another factor not being considered by anyone other than academic ecologists. They estimate the global carrying capacity to be ~12 B. If i remember right, they project that to be reached by 2025 or something really soon. Based on ecological models, there should be huge corrections once carrying capacity is reached, apart from even economic logistical food and water supply issues. Space, resources, disease. We are already seeing water skirmishes taking place in India as of this year. It's going to spread like wildfire.
I think you're missing other points, such as your complete lack of social cohesion, total divisiness in your society, the complete moral decay, female sexual liberation, the entitlement of your people, the fact hard work has been replaced for leeching the goverment.
your first step will be getting rid of welfare, and getting rid of public health care and all the social benefits people have, and force your population to become hard workers again.
that's one of your big problems right now.
Malthusianism is pseudoscience retard.
>LALALALALA I'M GOING TO COMPLETELY IGNORE THE FEMINIST ELEMENTS GROWING IN THE GOVERNMENT VOTING FOR MORE BROWN PEOPLE
Fuck you, and fuck the entire gay rock we exist on.
Rome was a republic, then became an empire
Think back and try to remember what form of governance the US has
Yes, all of those attributes are easily observable across the world. But the people who exhibit those characteristics are the surplus of our population. We have a core (not currently represented in government) that have high standards and a thorough understanding of natural rights. In fact none of the detriments in our society are perscribed by our foundational law and philosophy, they only exist because of the corruption of our government and their suppression of founding principles and the bill of rights
does anyone know how long the US military could operate without the government working or a economic base producing for it?
like... us civil war collapse level. How long could the military run with no logistical supplies to support them?
The point of a lack of social cohesion was addressed in my first two points. As for moral decay, the point is not to impose values from the top down, but to change the context in which values are created.
Values and morality are created by people acting in their self-interest within a context. If the context is unemployment, crime, drug abuse and economic enrichment, then the values will grow out of that soil.
To want to impose morality from the top down is a fundamentally un-American concept, rejected almost entirely in the design of our system and in the freedom guaranteed to our citizens.
Getting rid of welfare and public healthcare will not be so difficult, but again is an instance of top-down imposition of values. If states want welfare, let them have it. If they don't want it, let them get rid of it.
I am not talking about changing this or that one piece of legislation to affect this or that social issue. I am talking about structural changes which allow people to grow their own values, rather than having those values imposed by somebody else who "knows what is right". It is hard enough to "know" things as they pertain to the physical world, as anybody who has studied physics can see. To argue that you know what is correct morally is a form of megalomania I cannot understand. Morality is a protocol developed in a context, iteratively, over generations. It cannot be downloaded onto people's brains.
You can't go after "values". You have to go for the context in which those values are created and grown. To seek to impose values on others is to fundamentally misunderstand what values are and how they are formed.
and this is all you're good for, you fucking leaf
It's not malthusian theory. it's basic fucking ecology pleb. who the fuck are you anyways? According to what you're writting, you seem to have just binge watched a bunch of molyneux videos and now you're just plagarising his concepts on Sup Forums for attention.
Are you referring to this video?
youtube.com
History repeats itself because everyone tries to revise and deny it instead of just learn from it.
Our demographics are reaching plebe levels.
>you seem to have just binge watched a bunch of molyneux videos and now you're just plagarising his concepts on Sup Forums for attention
Projection, if I ever heard it. So what are you doing?
We didn't have kek and the internet before.
Ah crap, you mentioned it. Missed it.
Also thisThose who have nothing better to do, put em on play.
True but we posses knowledge (yeah I know sounds retarded) in today's age of information we can reverse the trend we are in an era of human history like never before. So maybe we are in decline but alot of Americans are waking up to the greed and horror of the real world so it's up to the people if we fall like the Romans or exceed them. FYI if America falls so does the global economy so good luck recovering from that pussies
ok idiot, you have no social values all your population can agree upon.
you have already several groups of america with diferent set of values already.
how are u going to recuperate the values of hard work, loyality, nationalism when your social cohesion is broken?
how are u going to recover your family unit if it has been destroyed.
are u going to tell your women to stay at home, be wifes and raise children?
do you think feminism hasn't happened in every age of decay in every fucking civilization?
the western person is too entitled to hard work, so he rathers let a foreigner to work the shit jobs he doesn't feel he's worthy off it.
sounds familiar with the mexicans?
>getting rid of welfare will be not dificult
good luck not getting riots when your entitled population start to starve.
It's malthusian garbage with new names idiot, overpopulation is pseudoscience.
everytime the earth capacity has been increased when technology advances.
also, population icrease has been reducing, most poor countries are getting now into low fertility rates, even africa.
how bout the decreasing population rates already in some nations?
how bout japan that need new babies, or europe?
Longer than you think, declines are generally gradual. We could even see some sort of schism in the US like what occurred between the eastern and western Roman empires. Plus Roman decline occurred before the fall and was stopped. It seems democracies gravitate toward becoming corrupt oligarchies, thats what happened with Rome until Cesar and then Octavius assumed the rule of Emperor and ushered in Pax Romana for over two centuries.
There will be no event like the sacking of Rome that symbolizes the fall of the US. At least not in our lifetimes.
So even the world hating on you cunts, you still don't think it's getting worse for you?
Stfu phaggot. Abolish you cucks and the world bank is the final solution now. =D
Its simple op, it goes even further back than roman times too, way back even to the Assyrians. Nations are built stoic and fall epicurean. We climb up the stairs in wooden shoes and climb down the stairs in soft slippers.
yes
I doubt America will fall but it will definitely splinter
>Climb down the stairs in soft slippers
It's more like tumble down the fucking stairs
could collapse after the millions of insiders bet big on Clinton winning and she loses
If you're going to compare us to Rome, wouldn't it be more apt to say we are about to leave the Republic behind and embrace the Empire?
Anyone who doesnt think the US will collapse is retarded. Its happening already. The trillions in debt, the immigration, the rampant corruption, the 2A being attacked. The US is fucked long term although we all are. Its a testament to how gr8 the founding fathers were in their constitution to keep the union strong.
Just watch when China overtakes the US. The whole anglosphere have big big problems.
>The whole anglosphere have big big problems.
They really fucking have it out for us don't they?
>historical parallels proves a trend can't be reversed
>but my shit quote from a supposedly collapsed and extinct nation state survived, thank god.
sage&hidden
coriander&found
Well we act like retards giving india billions in aid despite them having a space programme. We are all dickheads. Only switzerland left to save us.
America as it stands is more like the Roman Republic than the Empire, we still got a few more decades of hegemony desu
Paki spotted.
>switzerland
Oh boy
It's interesting how the fall of so many empires correlates strongly with women's rights within those empires.
Never before has a nation come about as ours did and thus I conclude never before has a nation ended as ours shall end.
Our end shall be as unique as our beginning, mark my words the very roots of the world will shake when the walls of our great nation crumble.
Yeah no.
The swiss are based.
Their biggest party puts out shit like this
Both the US & Rome will have been killed by the Rothschilds
You can lie to us here, Pajeet. But you'll always be a dirty paki.
>when the walls of our great nation crumble.
60%
Still whiter than you are, Pajeet.
>muh vague situations ===== EMPIRE COLLAPSE
seriously make shit vague enough and you can compare jesus to a deer and youd all walk away telling me the deer is the 3rd coming
England alone is 90% white.
I love how people pretend they read Roman history. Nigga you didn't ready Livy, tacticus, Plutarch or polybius.
England is, but the user I am speaking to is a Paki. Pakis are not white in any way.
It's not THAT unlikely America will reverse directions and peak even higher than it has in the past. My outlook for the next 100 years for America isn't that great though mostly because of Climate Change.
Guessing when an empire is going to collapse is basically guesswork and Americans are still the richest per capita and have a long way to fall.
Rome degenerated after they started treating women as equals and Augustus came with his ultra traditionalist politics and fixed Rome for another few hundred years.
Top kek. 60%
PAJEET
A
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>So far there's not a single historical example where any empire reversed the trend that lead to it's collapse.
There's never been an empire in history with the level of technology and education we have now.
Even if shit really hits the fan it won't be like the dark ages.