Either the Universe does not begin and contain all events occurring in time and space, or it does...

Either the Universe does not begin and contain all events occurring in time and space, or it does. If it does contain all these events, then how do you explain what initiated the Big Bang? Would it not follow that there must be a force that operates outside of our concepts of beginnings, ends, space, and time in order to initiate the beginning of all events?
If the Universe does not contain all events, then something existed before it in order to contain these events, which would still raise the same question: shouldn't there have been a force to initiate the creation of the "aquarium" that is the Universe (which holds all events that occur in space and time) that acts outside of space and time?

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youtube.com/watch?v=t_RwcGzGurc
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

And that this force is the natural phenomena which occurs every time there needs to be this "aquarium"?

Dude what if we're not even real? You really blew my mind OP

But what created that force that created the universe??

God answers all of these questions.

Like I said
>Would it not follow that there must be a force that operates outside of our concepts of beginnings, ends, space, and time in order to initiate the beginning of all events?
>And that this force is the natural phenomena which occurs every time there needs to be this "aquarium"?
The force, deity, creator, whatever. Yes.

But what is creation?

Without an observer, all possibilities exist.

With an observer, this superposition of events and possibilities collapse to just one.

Our universe is a 3d surface on/in a black hole in a four or higher dimensional universe. The analogue within our universe would be the 2d surface of a black hole.

>relying on (((Einstein))) science for cosmology
kek

We have no way of knowing what existed before the Big Bang, so it's all speculations.

>leaf
Dude, read a book, it has already
been proven that we live in a simulation.

youtube.com/watch?v=t_RwcGzGurc

Not all possibilities, I can't state that a potato existed before the Big Bang, that's just Bertrand's teapot all over again. I'm just speculating of a force that operates outside of space/time/beginning/end in order to give definition to the logical creation of that which contains space/time/beginning/end.
I just googled Big Bang and picked the first image. Nice digits, though. Take it up with Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

There was no 'before' the big bang. Big bang was when the time began. So there couldn't have been a cause to big bang, as nothing could have happened before it, since the concept of 'before the big bang' doesn't make any logical sense. And for an external force to cause big bang would require it to happen before it started.

>God answers all of these questions.
Except the only important question - Who created god?

It's funny that humans can't grasp that everything has just always been this way.

Humans :^)

I like the part where the moon was created. Cool animation.

God is eternal.

>hurrrrrrr durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

If God does not exist then how did laws of physics were created?

>God is not evil or good
> God is just a concisousness with more senses than you and more powers than you. He literally DGAF. God just loves symmetry and shit and fucking around with the playground that we call the Universe.

>God is eternal.
So "creation" does not include the creation of god? That leaves out the most important part of the story.

I know that, I'm merely offering explanation for the most logical thing to initiate this beginning. Just imagine it as a hand that flicks on a light, and the light illuminates the whole room.
>Would it not follow that there must be a force that operates outside of our concepts of beginnings, ends, space, and time in order to initiate the beginning of all events?
The concept of beginning still exists. I am offering something which operates beyond the scope of our knowledge of the Universe to explain initiating that which is the origin of all things, a consequence of existence, a natural phenomena whenever you wish to create these things, if you will.

how do you know that the universe didnt begin 5 seconds ago?

Pretty sure if we have information that predates 5 seconds of existence (i.e. we can see more than 5 seconds of the Universe existing), then it is safe to say that it did not originate 5 seconds ago, or else that information would not be valid.

>If God does not exist then how did laws of physics were created?
If a fish has a bicycle, how does a clock know to drive a dune buggy?

Why add an unprovable entity instead of just claiming the world is eternal? Occam's razor.

God created everything, but He Himself is eternal and has made the Universe many times.

Likely just for fun.

Kek meme'd them into existence.

>Would it not follow that there must be a force that operates outside of our concepts of beginnings, ends, space, and time in order to initiate the beginning of all events?

Reread that question and realize how fucking retarded you are.

>There was no 'before' the big bang

FUCKING KILL YOURSELF
PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE WHY PEOPLE REJECT THE BIG BANG
FUCK YOU AND YOUR MISINFORMATION

The existence of a deity is least complicated option, you know. Probably why every single human society has attributed the existence of Earth to a deity or deities.

Why would the laws of physics have to be created, rather than be a consequence of the physical world itself?

If I grab her by the pussy and it leaves a bruise, that's a consequence of the biological system itself, the body's response to an injury. Bruising didn't have to 'be created' for a bruise to occur.

It couldve started and we not even know, with only our memories to go by

Its a pretty far fetched idea

Exactly.

Constant flux user. Universe existed before but was pulled to a singularity and exploded (big bang). Eventually the expansion will stop and begin to slowly be pulled back into a singularity at an accelerated rate.

You need to explain your reasoning, there is no difference between your argumentative tactics and Carl "are you kidding me you should already know this" the Cuck.

Poincare Recurrence

How is adding an eternal entity with superpowers simpler than just adding the 'eternal' attribute to the universe?

No and you know nothing about physics

So, you're saying that apple falls down from tree branch for no reason?

Valid question OP.
I do not know the answer.

There is no beginning and no end, that's that.

Whether you can wrap your head around that as a human or not is your problem.

This. Don't some people believe it's cyclicle?

>If it does contain all these events, then how do you explain what initiated the Big Bang?

By saying the big bang was initiated, you're implying that there IS a time before the big bang. You're violating one of your assumptions. That's why the question makes no sense.

No, you should kill yourself instead. The big bang was the beginning of time, this is an universally accepted theory. And there's no 'before' the beginning of time, because if time doesn't exist, there can not be a 'before'.

This post shows how the big bang is a religious belief.

No one knows.

Anyone who tells you they do know, is lying to you.

Avoid these people.

Think outside the box. There were never "before" and "after".

Because the big bang and the expanding universe don't make much sense being eternal. The steady state universe theory made more sense in thst regard.

Something can't expand if it's infinite. If it grew or changed then it wasn't infinite before, because it just became something it wasn't previously.

Atheism used to rely on the steady state universe theory then the big bang BTFO up

The apple falls under the force of gravity. Gravity is a consequence of the masses of the objects (apple, aggregate mass of Earth) and distance between them. Gravity didn't have to be Created to exist (in other words apples wouldn't float away from trees if Gravity wasn't specially Created).

Though I'm quite sure you realize this already.

I'm pretty sure it's backed up by what we know of physics and shit currently so I wouldn't say it's like a religion more an educated guess using the knowledge we have of our working universe currently.

But why do objects with mass are being pulled to each other? Who decided for this shit to work exactly like this and no other way around?

see
In regards to the origin of the Universe? Isn't the Big Bang usually regarded as the point the clock began? I'm just speculating about a force that pushed over the dominoes of creation.

Semantics, I just used the word initiated because I didn't want to repeat the adjectives I'd used, it would make the sentence look 'cheap'.
I'll rephrase it: if the Universe contains all events that occur in space and time, then how did the Big Bang come to be the origin of all things, a beginning without a beginning? Must there not be a force that operates outside of this concept (so as to avoid the question: what makes the force) that operates whenever there needs to be a such existence/origin of existence?

*verb, rather.

No, it just shows that the user who posted it doesn't actually understand the big bang theory.

Also interesting note it was made by a priest

>Would it not follow that there must be a force that operates outside of our concepts of beginnings, ends, space, and time in order to initiate the beginning of all events?
That's an irrational speculation. Conjecture and speculation are logical fallacies.

Hypothesizing an outcome based on the evidence and analysis (i.e. following a trend to its logical end) does not include the fabrication of magical beings or mystical forces.

It's great whey you prove how little you know about science and how poorly your cognitive ability functions.

Except that it's the universally accepted theory as of our current knowledge of physics. I'll take that over a jewish book written 2 thousand years ago to justify a guy getting cucked by claiming it was a god who knocked her up.

>Would it not follow that there must be a force that operates outside of our concepts of beginnings, ends, space, and time in order to initiate the beginning of all events?
infinite multiverses

I mean that the way its believed by most people is religious, it gives them a simplistic philosophical belief which brings comfort, and which they defend rabidly therefore.

Nobody had to decide it. And we don't know why gravity works, but that doesn't automatically imply sky daddy.

Logical fallacies galore
>If the Universe does not contain all events, then something existed before it in order to contain these events
Circular logic you are arguing that your premise must be true because your premise states that the universe begins and contains a information or it does not begin. When you argue against the false pretense you are just adding meaningless fluff.
>Needing to contain events
Do you even know anything about quantum? All wells get broken

Christianity has literally never even been referenced (seriously, look above your post) until right now. I DON'T want this to devolve into a Christianity thread, please go make your own and stick to the topic I started in the original post.

Funny how you talk shit about people believing the bible and taking its word when you've demonstrated you have no idea how the big bang theory works and are just taking someone else's word that it's true

>Hey, your theory doesn't explain the whole story:
>scientific response: because we don't know, there are theories, but they are hard to check
>creationist response: God is eternal, you don't need to think more!

I never stated that simply because there is not all information in the Universe, that it does not begin. I specifically said that if all that information is not contained in our Universe, then it must be contained in another "aquarium" (or, Universe) of existence within ours/inside of ours. This is referencing Multiverse theory, in case you didn't pick up on that.

>you don't need to think more!
>implying there isn't thousands of years of humanities greatest philosophers thinking on this since the beginning

Abrahamic religions are the only ones that worship a monotheistic creator god, which means any discussion of a god creating the universe is a discussion of either Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.

Alright, I mentioned Christianity since it's the default belief of people I talk to, but you can insert any mythical story of creation there.

>demonstrated you have no idea how the big bang theory works
Enlighten me, oh, the wise one, then. I stated (a part of) the accepted theory.

Ah the old First Cause argument. I refute with Argument From Evil. Anddddd stalemate. Back to election.

The topic OF Christian history, which the user admits to referencing here: specifically Jesus and Joseph and all that stuff, is what I want to avoid. You are welcome to make your own thread about that stuff, if you want to crash it with that stuff then kindly fuck off.

>I'll rephrase it: if the Universe contains all events that occur in space and time, then how did the Big Bang come to be the origin of all things, a beginning without a beginning?

It may be the case that there are an infinite number of events separating our current moment and the first moment in the universe.

When you consider that "1 second" is defined as the amount of time it takes light to travel such and such distance.... there are ways that time can bend to extend the past to an infinite degree.

>the path of least resistance

functioning brains have no need for such hypotheses

Your
>time started at the big bang
>that means the big bang never actually happened because there was no before evil bang !!11!

is pure garbage understanding of what you're talking about

Maybe some people, but I and I hope many others see it as a basis to continue to explore the universe from. It's what we currently accept now and from there we try to get a better understanding of the universe. It's constantly changing. Many people probably cling to it in a philosophical sense but I believe most scientists would readily accept a better explanation of our universe if one presented itself.

...

Keep those curious minds bickering amongst themselves, eh?

Why exactly must this universe trigger be eternal? It only needed to exist in the time frame it took to create the universe. For all you know the act of creating the universe destroyed it.

>Either the Universe does not begin and contain all events occurring in time and space, or it does
You argue that the universe begins or it does not begin, but insist that it must contain all information. If you wrote
>Either the universe begins and contains all information or the universe begins and does not contain all information
Your argument may have been better. You kinda shot the pooch from the onset.
>Arguinging that the universe did not begin needs you to disprove time in the dimensions we live in

Funny how they now use the big bang for no god

>>that means the big bang never actually happened because there was no before evil bang !!11!
I never stated it never happened, work on your reading comprehension, leaf.
I stated it couldn't have had a cause. Not having a cause doesn't mean it didn't happen, I never stated that.

The point isn't to be skeptical of rhe big bang theory. The point is that the big bang theory doesn't hold up on its own. It doesn't answer any of the questions that humanity has been asking. It's not that people doubt the big bang it's that the big bang actually explains very little and in fact raises more questions, but edgy fedora lords take it as the trump card that ends all philosophy

Energy has always existed.

You stated there was no before the big bang. That's how a sequence of events works. If there was an even, there was a before and an after, yet you're drooling from the mouth about how there was no before the big bang, meaning it didn't happen, because time and shiet

There is no sentient, multicellular life to be evil.

How can there be an infinite (never-ending) series of events if the Universe has a beginning? By definition, the events would never end. You'd have to bend that light with a lot of force, it would appear to be infinite from your point-of-view, but not from an observer. Relativity and whatnot.

I rephrased my point.
>Either the universe begins and contains all information or the universe begins and does not contain all information
That is precisely what I am trying to get at.
Isn't the current model used to describe the Big Bang have it as the point when the stopwatch started ticking? Correct me if I'm wrong, that's what I've heard is the accepted consensus.

Not like this matters to humans anyway.
Life is presentist illusion of our senses, made to fulfil our biological needs.

Every pretty and cool shit you see is just meaningless crap, differences in life experiences don't matter.

And i don't mean that in nihilistic, edgy sesne.

I mean its established fact that needs matter not aberrations of what we sense is an illusion.

What we sense is akin to a fucking Deskop with pretty wallpapers and icons when "real life" if i can call it for sake of argument goes under the hood.

So how does this even matter if universe is this or that when we can't even say for sure the universe we know "IS"?

I mean it isn't the end all be all statement, I don't think we'll ever really reach the point where we can answer many of those questions man.

I hear ya on some edgy atheists or stoned college kids watching cosmos going >muh Big Bang though

Because if it's not, then it cannot be the start of the chain. If it is not eternal than something must have triggered it. Things can't spontaneously come into creation, they can only change forms. The chain of energy and mass changing forms has to end in something eternal or else it is not the end of the chain and something had to come before it

>And i don't mean that in nihilistic, edgy sesne.
kind of coming off that way, seems like you just wanna smoke weed.

> By definition, the events would never end.
If they occur with infinite quickness, there's no contradiction.

>You'd have to bend that light with a lot of force

How much force is required to expand the universe?

It doesn't even make sense to talk about force at that point.

I know. This bothers me to no end. I have nothing against atheist or agnostics but the fact they think the big bang theory is an argument for no god is insanity.

>(EWE)

How does something occur with infinite quickness? Define infinite quickness?
I was talking about force in the context of gravitational forces involved in black holes, sucking light in. Sorry for not clarifying.

0 = 1 + (-1)
You can get something from nothing

Polish zealot you're just proselytizing your religious beliefs about The Big Bang. kill yourself.

>God created everything,
Is there an adult explanation?

I'm turning this into a religion thread.

you're fucking stupid if you believe in the Big Bang but not a god to initiate it

BTFO bitch cunts

Consider zenos paradox for an example.

Suppose evertime i go half way towards the moment of the big bang, the speed of light also halves... something like that

yes. it's called "God created everything." you're a fucking child if you don't get that