When exactly did Marvel heroes stop being heroes and became "awful people with superpowers"? I think it was mid-00's...

When exactly did Marvel heroes stop being heroes and became "awful people with superpowers"? I think it was mid-00's, when the Millarnization of Marvel was complete.

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Civil War

early 90s

Around Onslaught Saga

Right after House of M.

I love how nobody can put a definitive stamp on it. I've never seen a thread like this where people agree on a specific point or period, it's always either one event, or one decade, or a year. But, it's never anywhere before the eighties. So, I'd say 1990 was where it started. And it got to a peak around Disassembled. It peaked again around Civil War and since then it's just been an escalating level of dog-shit that's spiraling out of control

I can't wait for the Marvel adaptation of Blacked.com.

Explain

when team meat stole a rocket ship to fly into cosmic rays.

What there to explain? 90s and especially early 90s were worse than "Bendis Avengers" era

Same

Why was Sue so concerned about "the commies"?

t. Commie
We still beat you faggot

Namor's first appearance.

They were always that way. Having superheroes who were ordinary flawed people is what made Marvel stand out in the 60s.

wait- what the fuck is this real? what are those circle things?

It's real. And I think they're cakes.

We are not talking about "flawed". We are talking about "awful".

reed motherfucKING richards

Awful people write in marvel.
Superheroes are for self-inserty escapism.
Awful writers, will therefore write awful people.

Yeah, it was the NYCC booth

>le nineties too edgy poster.
>every thread.
>people still reply.

Not Reed's fault that Ben is a pussy about getting powers.

Prime Sup Forums reaction image material right there

Black & White cookies, you can find them in any bakery in NYC. You don't have those elsewhere?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_white_cookie

I live in Ireland, we don't have anything outside of potatoes and rabbit.

Communists are sub human monsters who are by all definitions worse than the Nazis.

Except for the racism definition. Commies usually murdered everyone equally.

I'm talking about Marvel, you retard. Because Marvel's 90s were pretty shit compared to 00s

>still trying to pretend he reads comics

name a few titles.

Everything fell to shit starting in 92. for me, the watershed is Larsen leaving ASM. I also think AoA was cool af, but upped the asshole quotient in the main timeline somehow.

Ultimates

I think it was the late 80s to the 90s. You can thank Frank Miller and Alan Moore for making heroes grimy and slightly unlikable, yet noble enough to do the right thing.

It exploded in the 90s and 00s around Civil War though.

>everything in the West severely declined in the 90s and is in a downard spiral ever sense
I'm beginning to see a pattern here....

>Clone Saga vs JMS Spider-Man
>Thor was crappy for whole 90s vs JMS Thor
>Crossing Tony and Teen Tony and lot of bad and mediocre stories vs Ellis and post extremis Iron Man
>Even Bendis Avengers better than Harras one
>DeFalco FF vs Straczynski and Hickman FF
>Waid's Cap is great but Brubaker better

At least 90s X-Men was better.

How do you think about the 2099 books, Generation X, Ghost Rider, Thunderbolts?

Cold War.

>No time to wait for permission, let's just steal the rocket
Well, it's nice to know Reed's character has stayed consistent throughout the years.

Why are people only complaining about Marvel heroes not being heroes only when most of them are replaced with minorities now and not back when they were killing each other a decade ago and wiping out multiverses for the greater good and shooting the Hulk into space

But everyone here is saying that the problem started between early 90's to mid 00's.

But they're only bitching about it now is his point.

But everyone is only complaining now, not when this shit was going on. While these things were going on, I've seen praise for the moral ambiguity and 'heroes being real people' during Secret Wars for example instead of questioning why everyone is a piece of shit

>I've seen praise for the moral ambiguity and 'heroes being real people'
Those are Marvelfags. Marvel heroes could cook babies and they would call it "moral ambiguity".

>condoms

The fuck? How are Black Bulls supposed to breed white women with those?

>>DeFalco FF vs Straczynski and Hickman FF

I'd rather read DeFalco's FF over JMS'. Hickman's FF is better than both though.

>>Crossing Tony and Teen Tony and lot of bad and mediocre stories vs Ellis and post extremis Iron Man

Ellis' Iron Man was the only 00's Iron Man that was decent, maybe some of Fraction's (which was overrated though still better than Gillen's and definitely better than Bendis'). the rest was more bad and mediocre than the 90's Iron Man except still better than Teen Tony/Crossing. I'd sooner read Busiek's Iron Man over Fraction's though.

Avengers Disassembled.

WOW
I MISS THE TIME, WHEN MARVEL ARE MARVEL!

This Spider-Woman is the best superhero suit ever!

Marvel is really dead

Len Kaminski's Iron Man run > Extremis

Spider Woman being for sexual used to be an ongoing gag, like the guy heroes would be all trying not to stare at her ass, they'd make jokes about how she doesn't bother wearing underwear under the bodystocking etc

then nuMarvel made her A MOMMY and chopped her FUCKIN BOOBS OFF shit was awful

>DeMatteis' 1990s Spectacular Spider-Man is one of the best Spidey runs.
>JMS' Spidey was overrated because Spider-Man had been so bad for so long. Everyone turned against it after Sins Past & One More Day.

>Most of the better 1990s Thor comics are actually about Thunderstrike.
>JMS' Thor also got overrated due to there being no Thor comic for several years before.

>Iron Man had a great early 1990s before he got replaced with a teenager, seldom rose above "mediocre" for the rest of the decade.
>Extremis really isn't that good, nor are most Iron Man comics before it in the 2000s, and then Tony spends the rest of the decade being treated like a villain.

>Harras Avengers is "bad" because REEEE 1990s REEEEEEEE leather jackets. No-one who actually read it would choose Bendis over it.

>Simonson's FF in the early 1990s is a classic run.
>No-one cared about JMS' FF. Hickman's FF started in late 2009 and is mostly a 2010s run.

Brubaker's Cap is the only one of those that was objectively better, but there was a lot of crap in the 2000s before him.

>>Harras Avengers is "bad" because REEEE 1990s REEEEEEEE leather jackets. No-one who actually read it would choose Bendis over it.

I didn't like Harras-era Avengers at all. But I would definitely reread it over Bendis' Avengers.

>>Simonson's FF in the early 1990s is a classic run.
>>No-one cared about JMS' FF. Hickman's FF started in late 2009 and is mostly a 2010s run.

Also if someone brings up Waid then I'd say I'd rather take Simonson FF over Waid FF, even though I'm okay with Waid FF.

Millar's FF is actually really good aside from the Master arc.

hindsight is 20/20 brah

SHE HAS SEXY BASED POWERS GODDAMMIT MARVEL

90 is where the aggressiveness of super heroes has increased considerably, but as violent, they were still heroes in the fundamental values and above all, among themselves.

Imho, the breaking point was Disassembled. I consider Mark Millar merely a subsequent consequence. Of course with Civl war

they sell them at delis and chinese restaurants too across the country

...

THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE PLATONIC

is Claremont FF good

Because it's a comic from the 60s.

Except when they aren't.

When they started the Hero vs Hero bullshit in the 80's like Fantastic Four vs X-Men or Avengers vs X-Men. Even though the former managed to resolve itself in the end while the latter was the Avengers trying to bring Magneto to an international tribunal, they set set a dangerous precedent.

Previously, Marvel heroes might not have always gotten along or had misunderstandings that scuffled out of control, but in the end, they were still heroes at the end of the day. When Marvel writers and editors started to pit heroes against heroes because of retarded circlejerking and dickwaving between fandoms, that was when all hope was lost.

Even the DC vs Marvel events in the 90's are guilty of contributing this to erosion.

The last time when I truly felt the Marvel Universe was together as heroes was at the end of Onslaught Saga. The X-Men are nearly put out of commission, but the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and even Doctor Doom show up to help stop Onslaught. We will NEVER get this kind of unity and teamwork again.

>potatoes and rabbit.
What, like a singular rabbit? All these potatoes and you only have one rabbit? Is it a tourist attraction or something?

The 90's had more palatable shit than 00's crap. Besides what and mentioned we had the following:

- Thunderbolts
- West Coast Avengers which unfortunately ended in 1994
- Operation: Galactic Storm
- Avengers Forever
- Ultron Unlimited
- The Last Avengers Story
- Incredible Hulk's Future Imperfect storyline
- Operation: Zero Tolerance
- Captain America's Street of Poison
- X-Cutioner's Song
- Age of Apocalypse
- J.M. DeMatteis' run of Silver Surfer

Hell I even liked Ben Reilly's days as Scarlet Spider and Spider-Man before the return of Norman Osborn.

Jeez, Susan! Fuck you!

>- X-Cutioner's Song

For an event crossover they put in bags so no one would ever open them, that was a pretty good storyline.

It's best when they are brother and sister

Indeed it was. I'd argue X-Cutioner's Song and Operation: Zero Tolerance (which is criminally overlooked) are the 2 best stories that X-Men had in the 90's.

Oh and I enjoyed the Mutant X mini-series that had Alex Summers in another continuity. Always liked Alex over Scott because of this storyline.

The 2000's made the assholes really popular. From Family Guy, to Bloo from Imaginary Friends, to the people who kept claiming Wolverine was too soft in the films People LOVED assholes in that decade.

Millar always says he's a DCfag which makes sense when you think about it, since you can think he intentionally sabotaged the Marvel heroes and made everyone an asshole.

Makes a lot of sense. I fucking hated Ultimates. Limey bastard has no sense what US laws are like when he penned Civil War.

DO YOU THINK THESE TWO LETTERS STAND FOR MARVEL?

Why do people forget that Sue was the one who ultimately egged him on?

Because women can't do anything wrong, remember? Otherwise, it's considered sexism.

I forgot Marvels and Earth-X.

One More Day

I'd say this. everything was salvageable before this.

>Civil War
>salvageable

I legitimately can't reconcile this with the character from pic related, and I don't especially like MJ or the marriage.
But deal with the devil? What?

I legitimately forgot just how terrible the art in the last issue was.

Nah, I'd even argue Sins Past was more of an asspull than even a deal with Mephisto.

>- J.M. DeMatteis' run of Silver Surfer

Don't forget DeMatteis run on Spectacular Spider-Man. My absolute favorite as a 90s teen.

Fuck off old man

Ellis's take on them in Planetary lines up with this almost perfectly.

That was already mentioned by an earlier user. And yes his run was very good.

Honestly, people harp too much on the EXTREME 90's. Yeah there was plenty of crap like The Crossing (fuck this story), ammo pouches and leather jackets, and other asshatry, but there was still a wealth of good stories from Marvel.

The 90's introduced one of my favorite characters, Darkhawk. Or how the Quasar comics ran until 1994.

>Irish in US practically control the country
>Irish in Ireland are practically third world

Spider-Man 2099 was/is pretty damn good as well... sucks whats happened to the newer run.

Ah yeah I forgot about that and Doom 2099.

You see what I mean? People overlook how so many great reads there were in the 90's.

pffha okay

>let's just steal the rocket
It was his to begin with,like he literally paid for the whole thing.

Based Sue

You nailed it.

>Secret Wars

>Operation: Zero Tolerance (which is criminally overlooked)

Oh god, get your ungodly tastes out of here, you philistine.

t. Maximum Carnage fan

It's not that they're fucking that bothers me. Platonic shit aside those two have been shipped together since they were created and this was an eventuality.

It's that a relationship based around support and loving each other after a horrible trauma is being sold like this.

The sick part is with the most recent Secret Wars they basically had a carte blanche to do whatever the fuck they wanted with 616, but having zero foresight or a fucking clue what they were doing they went with the bullshit thats come out the last 2 years.

They could have ended the cycle...

There is so much about this that fucking bothers me on an autistic level.

If they're a couple now why aren't they fucking touching each other? Their relationship is explicitly and really co dependent. They're barely apart from each other if they can help it.

Why is Cloak suddenly dressed? I guess you don't want to make the black dude DARKNESS but despite the whole Daggers powers were actually meant for Cloak and vice versa Cloak was always a subdued dude who's overprotective of Tandy. He looks like he's about to drop a rap album. And not a conciseness lyrical one. A gangster rap album.

i have been a ms marvel fan forever till they shit on her. this is the only ms marvel for me