So is the only argument against the social democratic model
>Well, its only been tried in small white countries
The latter part I never understand just considering both the diversity and GDP per capita of the US coming out on top of most white European social democracies.
On the small point as well other countries of similar size that are further right wing such as Poland have nowhere near the living standards of surrounding social democracies. How else does Sup Forums rationalise the success of this model?
Homogeneous societies with enough money to support eachother and a very low percentage of people abusing that. However, due to the mass immigration from arabic countries these things will change. 1) no more a homogeneous society and a clash of cultures 2) more people dependent on money from others 3) people who will abuse this system 4) crime rates will rise But this can only be stopped by right winged partys taking the lead. Closing borders and sending back people to where they came from, banning qurans, muslim schools, etc. (This is the case in the netherlands most populair right winged party the PVV with "leader" geert wilders)
Logan Lopez
>>Well, its only been tried in small white countries No, its been tried in lots of countries.
But it only works in white countries.
Brayden Gutierrez
Literally this.
Owen Gutierrez
Really though most economists agree that immigration is good for the economy I really only perceive the current wave of immigration to Europe having an effect on social cohesion which isn't exactly pertinent to the social democratic model.
Where else has it been tried?
Cooper Jones
>(((economists)))
Jaxon Bailey
It is when the social democratic model collapses due to a decline in social cohesion. Also, mainstream economists have not been correct about anything in the past few decades.
Our mainstream proponent of social democracy, the Labour party, has degraded to becoming a minor party. They lost 70-80% of their support over the past few years.
Nicholas Bennett
>most economists agree that immigration is good for the economy Were they kikes by any chance? Cockroaches only cost a society money.
Carson Hughes
Stop being a faggot OP Here's the latest statistics with USA being the 8th best country in the world despite being only 60% white. Yurocucks should be fucking embarrased because of this.
Andrew Edwards
social democracy and identity politics are not compatible so pick one
Easton Kelly
NZ is great according to economists because we were the first country to have free trade with China, and currently are being bought out by China and our demographics rapidly changing. Being known as a great country to economists is basically being known as a huge cuck.
The idea is that it's designed to promote ideas that destabilize countries. For example, GDI is one such metric. This is actually a metric that indirectly calculates the fertility rate of a country. Another is MPI, Multidimensional Poverty Index. This is an indicator of how easy it is to obtain welfare, and therefore how easy it is to attract a large unskilled, uneducated population to migrate to your country.
It also take in male life expectancy compared to females (indirectly measuring how often a country has been at war, as a measure of ability to handle crisis) and unemployment/population age (roughly correlating to propensity to riot or otherwise destabilize the government).
I don't think high IHDI leads to stable countries in the long term.
Henry Allen
>It is when the social democratic model collapses due to a decline in social cohesion.
Yes but is that a failing of the model or just the society refusing to conform? Lack of social cohesion can only be expected to be a short term effect in any case just like any new immigrant group.
That's HDI, in no way analyses average standard of living
Social democracy
Samuel Cruz
Interesting analysis user. Hopefully someone one day will make a Sup Forums approved HDI calculator.
Austin Adams
Why is Japan so bad? It's a highly developed nation where the average person gets 100 years old.
Ethan Nguyen
those scandanavianish countries only flourish since they actually have a lot of tax breaks and low regulations for businesses that keep the economy running so then libtard socialist cucks can say see the governments doing everything and its great goy
Robert Bailey
It's not a short term effect. It's a 50 year old trend over all of north/western Europe.
Immigrants do not integrate better as the generations pass by. Third generation immigrants are integrated worse than second generation immigrants. Second generation immigrants are integrated worse than first generation immigrants. Studies indicate that while the average native contributes significantly to the state budget over their lifetime, immigrants - especially those of later generations - on average do not contribute, but are a burden on state finances over their lifetime.
These facts paired with the cultural and religious disparity will cause social cohesion to continue to deteriorate and eventually collapse. The social democratic model in north/western Europe will fail completely in the coming decades.
Ayden Rodriguez
>libtard socialist cucks can say see the governments doing everything and its great goy
Yeah nobodies advocating for a system that goes beyond what Scandinavia has done. Its not proof that socialism can work its proof that the social democratic model is superior in many ways to other models
Jayden Sanders
The economy is dead. Japan is doing very well if you ignore the economy. Countries like Germany and New Zealand look good on paper, but those numbers are from the economic benefits from mass immigration from non-white countries. They ignore long term impacts of a demographic shift, they only look at short term benefits.
Ryan Morgan
8ch net /meadhall/
Juan Walker
because ihdi is a retarded measure of happiness. why do you think uk left? because money isn't everything
Matthew Thomas
> most economists agree that immigration is good for the economy
Legal immigration of highly skilled workers is completely different from importing refugees that have no skills nor can speak the native language.
Oliver Brooks
Look man, I know my explanation is shit, but let me try it again. It's promoting these issues:
"Equality", which encourages a system of mediocrity (who cares if you work harder, we'll all make the same!!),
Gender Development/Equality (lowering of fertility rate),
Multidimensional Poverty Index (incentives for mass immigration incentives).
Higher scores are not necessary desirable.
Jace Stewart
Ireland is not social democratic
Charles White
We are 99.3% white tho.
Camden Allen
>Immigrants do not integrate better as the generations pass by. Third generation immigrants are integrated worse than second generation immigrants. Second generation immigrants are integrated worse than first generation immigrants.
This is certainly the case for some countries such as muslims in the UK but I'm really not aware of other examples.
>Studies indicate that while the average native contributes significantly to the state budget over their lifetime, immigrants - especially those of later generations - on average do not contribute, but are a burden on state finances over their lifetime.
Nope. Immigration almost always outweighs economic benefits over costs
>because ihdi is a retarded measure of happiness. why do you think uk left? because money isn't everything
Pick any measure of happiness right wing countries do shit
I'm fairly certain they agree most forms of immigration are beneficial and I would have good reason to think this wave will also in fact have its benefits. Migrants currently have a very young average age and not all work requires skill at all.
They're closer to it than most countries
And your GDP per capita is lower than the highly diverse US
Nathaniel Peterson
Thanks for the explanation. What scores are desirable? From that an estimation of a country's HDI can be made through Sup Forums lenses.
Zachary Morgan
Yeah, it's almost like you can't run a world empire with 2 million people.
Christopher Bennett
OIL, motherfucker, if Norway did what we're doing now without oil we would be below Sweden tier.
Look at Qatar, TONS of oil, average IQ of 78 but immense wealth.
Norway literally is like someone who won the lottery and found lots of oil so we can implement retarded overspending policies without getting in much trouble...
God help us when the oil runs out.
Furthermore none of the wealth we have was BUILT by socialism, socialism has only been spending / maintaining.
Ryder Butler
>Small country Let's change that argument a little >small or heavily decentralised states It basically means that most tasks are executed by counties rather than big government. This also means the government loses a lot of its power. That's why there won't ever be a social democracy in bigger states.
Jayden Wright
>That's why there won't ever be a social democracy in bigger states. Correct, if the USA was not a republic but each individual state was allowed to have their own governance then you would probably see social democracies. Especially in the north.
Cooper Thomas
Countries with lower GDP per capita than Norway and the US still fare better on standards of living measures
US GDP is all down to its military invasions is it?
Leo Ramirez
One where education and productivity are high, in a system that promotes competition rather than working just hard enough to get taken out back and shot, with a fertility rate that is sustainable or at the very least not entirely reliable on immigration.
This is more resistant to political instability and social decay.
Levi Powell
>This is certainly the case for some countries such as muslims in the UK but I'm really not aware of other examples. It's true everywhere. Ghettoization of immigrant communities happens in every European country that has a large amount of non-western immigrants. They cannot ever get out either, due to their economic position and their cultural exclusion. Most of these people (and their ancestors) are typically from the lower class too, so they and their offspring will have a high chance to be on the lower end of the bell curve.
>Nope. Immigration almost always outweighs economic benefits over costs 'immigration' isn't a monolithic term. The nature of immigration in north/western Europe is of the unskilled nature, for which there is no demand. Economists and politicians who propagate the blatant lie that ALL immigration is beneficial have been proven wrong many, many times.
Parker Smith
Yeah, maybe I should draw some fan art of our country being China's bitch
Michael Ward
>really only perceive the current wave of immigration to Europe having an effect on social cohesion which isn't exactly pertinent to the social democratic model. Are you retarded? You mass import low skilled, low IQ, high crime people that will never pay enough taxes to support make up for what they cost for the system while at the same time you absolutely crush the native populations acceptance to pay high taxes.
People here accepted high taxes because they got a lot back in the form of socials security and welfare. Now when that welfare and social security is given away to people that has never worked her a day in their life and the crime is rising people obviously won't accept it much longer.
SOCIAL cohesion is absolutely vital for any kind of SOCIALISM. Multiculturalism destroys social cohesion and therefore it destroys any chance of having socialism without being a third world country.
Easton Adams
No, but comparing a country like Slovenia, fresh out of serbian communisms grasp and only 2 mil population with usa is irrational.
Aaron Parker
Because American government is wasteful as fuck, with an underclass of tens of millions with even more across the border, and a shitload of military obligations that drains away even more tax dollars.
Plus America already has most social democracy type benefits in some form, but only to poorfags in the form of entitlements.
Liam Gray
So score card should be: Education (minus bullshit degrees) Resource management Work productivity Fertility rate of those born in the nation
Joseph Carter
>muh HDI toppest fucking kek, literally nobody takes the UN seriously.
Lincoln Collins
>Migrants currently have a very young average age and not all work requires skill at all. Yeah, that is a bullshit point in general. You can have your own population do the menial work, why is there a necessity to outsource it? There's no shame in being a brick layer, burger flipper or cashier. And you could always animate your own population to breed and get that marvelous 2.2 children per woman ratio by offering mild tax cuts or family support. Two birds with one stone: You have a happy, loyal population and can keep it within your already established culture.
Josiah Richardson
Fucking do it, Kek
Josiah Stewart
I'm against migration, but that's bullshit and you know it. How many genuine, white, swiss citizens would fall into the streets cleaning job market? The very bottom, surely no more than a few percent. These jobs take up the majority of worker needs and have the minority of native citizens actually applying for jobs in it. Even here, in Slovenia, a shithole compared to swiss, nobody wants to do manual labor and shitty jobs. That's why we import serbs and bosnians to do this shit.
>It's true everywhere. Ghettoization of immigrant communities happens in every European country that has a large amount of non-western immigrants.
Studies?
>The nature of immigration in north/western Europe is of the unskilled nature, for which there is no demand. Economists and politicians who propagate the blatant lie that ALL immigration is beneficial have been proven wrong many, many times.
How?
>Are you retarded? You mass import low skilled, low IQ, high crime people that will never pay enough taxes
This isn't a controversial point, immigrants are almost always net positive to the economy ask any economist
>SOCIAL cohesion is absolutely vital for any kind of SOCIALISM
Yeah and just like every other minority in history they'll be integrated after a few generations.
There are plenty of other countries with higher standards of living and lower GDP per capita than the US
Give me a better measure
>You can have your own population do the menial work, why is there a necessity to outsource it? There's no shame in being a brick layer, burger flipper or cashier.
Yeah no native swiss wants to do that
lmfao have you seen those things they're jokes. He mainly just points out how they're not real socialism which almost completely misses the point
Xavier Bennett
because you're being simplistic like a 8yo. there's much more that goes into making a great country than just the political model. the fact that you think poland is a middling shithole because it's ""right-wing"" is pretty telling
Chase Rivera
From a point of "put a price tag on everything", I'd agree with you. If you import millions of people, you will sell more toilet paper. But you're putting a price tag on history and culture.
Justin Myers
>He mainly just points out how they're not real socialism I don't think he said that in either of the videos
Lincoln Adams
Its not a shithole because its right wing its a shithole because right wing economic policies is shit
Yeah I'm sceptical of immigration as well its just not a relevant factor in economic discussions
7:30, second video
Josiah Cruz
Ideal scenario I'd move towards zero sunni immigration apart from women, gays etc
Nathan Young
thanks for proving my point
John Torres
No, it really isn't. Especially for employers. What I hate about this is, the middle class will go on and on about how immigration is great...from their rich and ethnically uniform neighbourhoods, from the job market they don't have competition in etc. Zero regard for their fellow countryman who lives in the guttet with muslims, niggers and competes with them and their ungodly low wages.
Sincerely, upper middle class of Slovenia member. I'm just not an egotistical asshole. When I heard my gf talk about how immigration doesn't hurt her from her private yacht I gave her a serious redpilling over the next few months, because that shit could boil blood in my veins.
Henry Smith
Ok so he mentions that Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden all have significantly lower corporate tax rates than the United States. Doesn't that kind of prove that Scandinavia's wealth has nothing to do with democratic socialism?
Kayden Thomas
It certainly hurts some segment of the population but I've only ever heard of it depressing the wages of the bottom 10%. So of course there will always have to be a trade off and these things can't always be perfect but if your living in a social democracy chances are things can't be too bad for you anyway
I never said democratic socialism can work I said social democratic model of European countries is superior. I have no wishes to employ anything that hasn't been tested before in other countries. I have no problem with low corporate tax and lower regulation markets if it means a higher standard of living.
Isaiah Bailey
The middle class actually gets replaced by low IQ low skill immigrants. It's how this works currently in Europe and the USA. They use some form of H1B or open borders or just outsource it to another nation that's hungry enough to play ball. What you're left with is a subservient underclass that's only good for voting. The system will finally crash because all the money is fiat and government controlled. It's turning into a closed loop of sorts but that always fails and then the blood spills and we see upheaval. Venezuela would be a good example if you need something contemporary.
Brody Miller
Norway is not a social democratic country. Fucking kill yourself.
Nathaniel Gonzalez
Are low IQ low skill immigrants taking middle class jobs though?
>immigration was to hold wages back by 0.7p per hour for the bottom 10%, add 1.5p per hour to wages at the median
Yes it is
Leo Thomas
It varies but the middle class is slowly being eroded. Immigrants aren't totally to blame just in some cases like with H1B's in the USA where you can import a subservient employee to replace these typically middle class jobs. Outsourcing is still a thing because government has only gotten bigger in Europe and USA. Look at all the hoops one has to go through in the EU alone to sell a product or do business. They will eventually all jump ship (those who can afford to anyways) and head to places like Singapore or more economically free areas. USA has a problem with offshoring of corporate money because of the tax rates and legislation on the books.
Wyatt Nelson
>studies? We live in europe, we see it with our own eyes. Even the statistics are on our side 80% of somalians for example live off welfare. >ask any economist The average economist doesnt know fucking shit. Stop referring to social scientists.
Evan Roberts
Yeah tell me about it literally entire mining operations in Australia will be staffed entirely by Chinese brought over on 457 visas
Mate even the Heritage foundation agreed on the net positive contribution of immigrants, low skilled and high skilled, in general. Of course there will be examples where certain populations won't live up to this but on a whole it normally isn't the worst for the economy.
Jacob Sanchez
Doesn't matter if it won't impact me. Guess I'm reaching natsoc here, but I care about my country and citizens of it. Not some third world shithole blowing itself up for some imaginary figure.
I really can't see that happening. You need preferably PhD in STEM to be even considered capable of doing my job.
Luke Kelly
>Mate even the Heritage foundation agreed on the net positive contribution of immigrants I am going to need some sources for this bullshit.
>[...]In a series of carefully researched articles published in 2013, Finansavisen came to the conclusion that the non-Western immigrants who came to Norway in 2012 alone will cost the country 63 billion kroner, when all is said and done. On average, every single non-Western immigrant will cost native tax payers 4.1 million Norwegian kroner, with Somalis topping the list as the most costly nationality.[,,,]
>[...]The only immigrants that were a net gain to the economy came from other Western countries, especially Western Europe and North America.[...]
>[...]The claim that non-Western immigration is beneficial to the economy is just plain wrong. Some big companies may gain short-term benefits from access to cheap labor, and left-wing political parties can import voters from Third World countries, who overwhelmingly tend to vote for left-wing parties. Yet for society as a whole in the long term, non-Western immigration is a net drain, not a net gain[,,,]
Only reason it was even marginally beneficial in america was because of the general lack of welfare beforehand.
Mason Martin
Japan is the fastest aging country in the world. they also face a heavy demographic shift
Xavier Long
>further right wing such as Poland have nowhere near the living standards of surrounding social democracies. Neck yourself. Poland's living standard has nothing to do with the current course of politics. 20 years ago we were a shithole on par with many countries of sub-saharan Africa, and socialism was at fault for this.
Joshua Brooks
bbc.com/news/world-europe-32929962 Glass houses, Hans. At least japs will try to make up the shortage of replacements with technology, you just go to afghanistan and declare them germans.
Christopher Morgan
It's because of the oil, not the social democratic model.
Lincoln Gutierrez
I'm going to trust think tanks across the political spectrum agreeing on a topic rather than just some guy with an agendas blog with sources I can't verify
William Roberts
With the exception of the UK and maybe australia every one of those countries depends almost entirely on the US stopping russia, etc steamrolling them.
It's a lot easier to have spare cash for social programmes when you don't have to worry about your own defence budget
Cameron Williams
Or just smart investing on the part of the Norwegian Government at the time
Not to mention per capita wise the stats will always favour small countries.
Juan Garcia
You telling me that the US has to spend as much as the next 8 countries combined on the military to maintain world order?
Austin Barnes
Well, if it soothes your autism, the stats for the article were taken from Jan Tullberg, a researcher from Stocholm school of Economics, who wrote a book about its effects on swedens economy.
for swedecuck language if you wish a general review of it.
Brody Fisher
>social scientists They aren't even scientist.
Lincoln Ward
This.
The social model of welfare in France, Sweden and Germany is living its last decade. Liberals talk about universal revenue but they are totally delusionnal kek, the arabs are absolutely milking the thing with fraud and laziness to its last drop and when boomers will retire it will be over.
I'm all for welfare and a moderate redistribution of wealth in a 100% white country but I don't want to pay for smelly lazy sandniggers to breed like rats.
Third world Immigration boosts sthe economy on the short term because it boost consumption. But overtime it creates a multiracial and multicultural in which tension is high until it ends in civil war crashing the economy for decades.
Lincoln Morris
Czech republic?
Yeah still pretty hard for me to verify that, sceptical to say the least
Yeah like every other immigration wave in history, oh wait
Henry Bennett
At this point, you arent even looking for verification, just to drag the argument out until the other side gives up.
Jaxon Peterson
We are a terrible example. We have more people drawing from the system than paying into it.
Cooper Sanchez
It had much to do with economic freedom, I mean, Switzerland has only public education and is in the top 3, Hong Kong as well have low taxes, and high economic freedom. The social democratic system only works for a time, the State usually falls on it's own weights, and the bigger the country the faster this will happen, in Brazil there is a whole crisis due to high government spending on Social Welfare.
Justin White
I'll take your point, there are economists that don't agree immigration of low skilled workers is necessarily good however what I have previously read requires more than one economist to flip me on this. If anything its dishonest to cling to the word of a single economist whilst ignoring what the rest of them have to say.
Are you sure about that?
Jack Torres
>democracy The problem is that commoners have no business in government. That is for the King and those advisers he may choose.
>social This is a misnomer. Really the idea is topsy-turvy - shifting money from above down to below, rewarding the lesser with the property of he greater, treating beggars as lords. I should call it "anti-social".
Brandon White
wtf i hate social democracy now
Christopher Collins
What does "good for the economy" mean? What is the benefit? To whom is it accrued? How? Why? Are there alternative arrangements?
Ian Clark
Is good for big corporations because that will bring salaries down. The poor people will have to compete for the jobs.
Elijah Reyes
>What does "good for the economy" mean?
Higher wages
>What is the benefit? To whom is it accrued? How? Why?
Well median wages typically increase so mainly to the middle class. I'd assume this is because there is now more people buying more things.
Only the bottom 10% are affected, median wages increase
Benjamin Long
>society refusing to conform This is not how things work. Society precedes any model of society. Society is affected by uncontrolled and uncontrollable forces. The purpose of a model is to describe these, understand these, and from that understanding, prescribe how to use controllable forces in crafting policy. If reality does not conform to your model then your model is broken and it would be foolish and dangerous to rely upon it for policy prescriptions.
Caleb Thompson
you did not. the US is still the country with the most white people. thats why they are successful. white germanics and brits made it what it is today
Gavin Harris
Higher wages for whom? Who is in "the middle class"? How do you know that a rise in median wage is benefiting "the middle class"? Does this affect all sectors or just some? Why are you treating consumption in itself as a good?
Camden Jenkins
>Yeah like every other immigration wave in history, oh wait
Which one ? The germanic immigration in the roman Empire ?
Eli Harris
I take back that position, cultures almost always do conform
The USA has a lower percantage of whites than all European countries and a higher GDP per capita than most European countries. Mere amount of whites isn't relevant
Do you know what a median is?
That was pretty much an invasion mate. Almost all long term modern examples of immigration can be looked at to be eventual successes.
