So can we trace back the source of everything wrong with Marvel to the idea of them trying to make every book into Hawkeye?
Even the shit artwork that you see all the time can be summed up with marvel editors/hacks not knowing what makes this artwork great and trying to pass mediocre art ''that's just the style of the artist! not everything has to be jim lee like DC lmao''
You could probably go back to Bendis Avengers when everyone was living out of an apartment block.
Zachary White
DareDevil?
Christopher Nguyen
It's a perfect storm of Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, Civil War, and Bendis older works.
Camden Miller
I still will never understand the praise this water trash of a comic received from Sup Forums.
Parker Adams
Naw, the moment Marvel went to complete shit is when Bendis wrote AvX, but SJWs didn't start fucking with comics until DC caves and removed the killing joke cover from Batgirl, after that event SJW crap started stringing up everywhere.
Dominic Thomas
I remember this being a big talking point but I wasn't around Sup Forums at the time. What was it like on here during all of that?
Kevin Ross
It's still a bit hazy, but I remember some anons getting assblasted over that whole event and how none of it seemed to have any direction, but the big deal was the fall out of AvX making Cyke out to be some bad guy and giving Hopless and Bendis creative control over the X-Men franchise after the event ended.
As for the Killing Joke cover, it was an ode to arguably one of the most popular Batman stories ever written, but someone threw a bitch fit about how it sent out a bad message so DC had it removed. Thankfully a number of other artists found it to be a fucking joke and made a number of mock covers for it, such as Doomsday painting a smile on Superman's face. After that you started to see more and more SJW complaints involving comics pop up over social media until it seemed like the only people paying attention to comics were the ones who never actually read them
David Foster
Dude, your memory is shit. SJWs were running roughshod over the industry before the Killing Joke cover fiasco. The Milos Manara cover controversy was like a year prior, and there were numerous points before that that were just as big battlegrounds where SJWs completely won. The only thing you could say is that maybe they have been undefeated since TKJ cover, but they've been fucking with comics for a MUCH longer time than you are saying.
Lincoln Adams
Marvel wasn't good then though. They've had the exact same success rate since House of M.
Brandon Wilson
Because Hawkguy is a very down to earth, ordinary guy that even Batman outpaces, and it was made to seem mundane and ordinary like old saturday newspaper comics.
It also didn't take itself seriously by any means, despite having serious moments.
Angel Myers
Marvel was already suffering at that point, but 2012 was the point of no return.
>As mentioned, Hawkeye is a runaway success, leading to many poor and uninspired attempts to replicate it that continue today. >AvX fully confirms that shitty Hero vs Hero events will keep happening >Spider-Men officially confirms Marvel out of ideas by crossing over Ultimate and 616 >Ike gutting editorial leads to a clear line wide quality plunge.
Chase Diaz
House of M was the ground zero that wiped most good Marvel titles and slowly killed off the survivors with newer writers.
Joseph Peterson
>and it was made to seem mundane and ordinary Just what I want from my superhero comics.
Dominic Cruz
>House of M At that point, let's just point the finger at Disassembled.
Jeremiah Williams
It got popular because it was different. Its certainly not for everyone but a lot of people ate it up.
Adrian Robinson
I miss pre-2012 Sup Forums. We had a big shitstorm with avx, legend of korra, and just really getting into the new-52 that made 2012 and up just an awful time to be here. but then again I came here in early 2010 so I could be wrong entirely on the quality
Jose Cox
2012 and 2014 were awful years to be here.
Daniel Perez
A lot of people are stupid.
Aiden Scott
>mfw I witnessed the birth of MCUcks
Aaron Diaz
Plus ASM #700 being leaked here brought in a fuckton of newfags.
Brody Sanchez
>ASM #700 What was it about?
Samuel Jenkins
Don't forget Dying Wish, the lead-up to Superior Spider-Man, happened in 2012.
Dominic White
It was the start of Superior.
Jayden Kelly
spider man
Sebastian Williams
It was the conclusion of Dying Wish, where Ock swapped bodies with Peter or some bullshit explanation. That led to Superior Spider-Man (and in turn that led to Axis, Superior Iron Man, HydraCap, Infamous Iron Man)
That was the issue Dock Ock takes over Peter's body and Superior Spider Man begins. While its obvious now it would never last at the time a lot of people (mainly casuals) believed Peter was dead for real, so Sup Forums being the first place to reveal it got the board a lot of attention.
Christian Ross
scanbro was good times we don't have those kinds of hype threads anymore of comics being leaked early. Maybe someone'll do it for Doomsday Clock
Charles Garcia
Oh yeah. I remember the storytimes. Thanks guys!
Joseph Wilson
>While its obvious now it would never last at the time a lot of people (mainly casuals) believed Peter was dead for real I was surprised how long Peter was out of commission, but not surprised that he came back just in time for ASM2, and then immediately started fighting Electro.
Camden Wright
Did you know that there was a special room at NYCC with every single uncolored page of issue one and only journalists were allowed in with Geoff Johns? There are people out there who know exactly how issue one turns out.
Christopher Morales
Yeah, pretty much. I actually liked the first half or so of Fraction's run, but I hated how Fraction instantly made Clint Barton a loser screw-up who's constantly henpecked and outdone by females. ^That has become a big trope of "SJW Marvel". All the men are immature losers, or at best even the relative alphas (Logan and "Odinson") are dummy beer-drinkers. Dude, dey lyke beeeer lololol Dude after this battle we shall dwink "mead" lololololol (fuck off jason aaron you puss).
I can kinda see the art comparison too. I like Aja a lot, and actually even early Erica Henderson has a real talent too it. But the overall style(s) they support is like an excuse for laziness.... All these people in their 20's-40's drawing something that's either retro or childish and it's, like, ehrrm, "a thing" now?
Between the minimalist art and the dumbed-down characterizations they've really made all their comics susceptible to creative decline. Lack of effort isn't really something they can monitor here, because Aja's stuff is very minimalist but it takes him a LONG time to draw it.
That too. People look back on mid-'00s Bendis Marvel and say "that was actually kinda good" but I remember at the time (I hadn't read comics since 1999 and came back in '06) I was outraged at how immature, boring and empty Bendis's New Avengers seemed. I thought it was like Seinfeld Avengers or Friends Avengers.
Robert Ward
>I thought it was like Seinfeld Avengers Isn't that exactly what Bendis was trying to make?
Brayden Cruz
"No more mutants." >BADEWDEWDEW
Chase Wright
>until it seemed like the only people paying attention to comics were the ones who never actually read them see also video games
Owen Thompson
>but SJWs didn't start fucking with comics until DC caves and removed the killing joke cover from Batgirl,
Are you fucking kidding me? Did you not remember how Comics Alliance was taking shots at DC during the start of the New 52?
Jack Brown
>While its obvious now it would never last at the time a lot of people (mainly casuals) believed Peter was dead for real > the retards convinced this was permanent because slott said so who would NOT leave this board christ
Parker Lee
>>As mentioned, Hawkeye is a runaway success, leading to many poor and uninspired attempts to replicate it that continue today. It wasn't really even THAT big a success, though.
Neither was 2014 Ms Marvel.
But those titles did have some success and floppy sales held up decently strong for awhile (ahead of "standard attrition").
And Marvel decided to basically transition their entire publishing toward trying to recapture the magic of two minor hits, even though by the time they did so both Hawkeye and Ms Marvel had fallen off in sales. Check the difference between the first Kamala collection and Vol 2. No one came back for seconds.
I can see why Marvel had legitimate reasons to think that Fraction Hawkguy or Kamala Marvel could have been the start of cultivating a new readership, but they decide to put all their effort into trying this and in the process alienated everyone.
Andrew Thompson
to be fair though CA was right. new 52 was 90% trash
Adam Adams
>CA shits on DC >it disappears Nice.
Isaac Murphy
there was actually some good writing at CA, mostly by Chris Sims and Uzumeri. Ask Chris was usually a decent column about comics history or some kind of analysis piece
Josiah Reed
>good writing >at CA >Sims
Christian Adams
CA when to trash when Laura Hudson and Andy Khouri left. Sims still did occasional good stuff though
Josiah Hall
what's wrong with him?
Adrian Perry
New 52 Starfire predates that. All the sjws were upset because their 8 yearvold daughters only knew her from the Teen Titans cartoon
Nathaniel Russell
no you can trace back the source of marvel's problems to the price of their comics, their shitty distribution and pre-ordering system, and marvel's lack of professionalism in its employees and letting them misrepresent their brand via social media
Caleb Richardson
House of M was great. It was just alt universe fun and it got rid of like 90% of shitty mutants Disassembled broke things for sure but I'd say Planet Hulk for creating the Illuminati and Civil War / Secret Invasion were destroyed things beyond repair. ( though all the tie ins for those were great ) i bowed out at Dark Reign
Christopher Ortiz
I wonder how much the MCU's (and the Avengers') success around the same time have influenced the publishers. While the movies were more or less in their own corner it did give a lot of attention to the comics.
Michael Watson
I miss Space Admiral Korianda'r, do you think she'll ever come back? Or are we stuck with writers trying to write her like she was in the (not)anime?
Austin Mitchell
Yeah, but creatively.
Zachary Perez
Did Marvel's comics really increase that much from 2007-2011 (Iron-Man through Avengers)? Outside of individual issue bumps the week the movie came out, I would say there hasn't been much of an increase. Definitely more of a focus from the wrong crowds, but they aren't buying the comics, just commenting on them. Worst kind of situation.
Carson Flores
well I mean data and stuff do influence marvel's creative directions. They'll try whatever nets them short-term sales. hence hydra-nazi cap. hence inhumans vs. x-men. hence fucking civil war 2, because the first wasn't bad enough. And don't even get me started on the movie synergy stuff
Lincoln Stewart
im not sure. on one hand DC seems to have mostly realized that sjw complaints aren't affecting sales unless they change what they've got that people like into what sjws want to see but not buy. on the other TT and even TTG can bring a lot of first timers to the comics and cartoon Starfire isn't a bad character just not what she was.
Angel Parker
>Clint Barton >Clit Fart On
Colton Mitchell
At last I truly see
Logan Myers
Disassembled was the first crack. Most didn't notice it because it and New Avengers was a sales success. But it encouraged Marvel's arrogance. House of M and Civil War were bigger cracks, but they weren't outright failures. But the 2007-2009 period where Loeb was on Ultimate (and inadvertently drove the Ultimate readership away with Ultimatum) and Quesada pushing forth OMD with too many people blindly defending it just because they needed a younger, unmarried Spider-Man, that was when things became a problem. All things led to their lowest point (at that time) in 2011 with a lukewarm reaction (at best) to Fear Itself.
Avengers vs X-Men, as terrible as it was, got a shitload of interest in Marvel again and so did Marvel Now, but at the same time you can see some of the root problems about to spring from there. AvX (and Civil War before it) of course encouraged them to continue the hero vs hero model. Hawkeye encouraged them that it was okay to take a huge shit on established characters to make them complete losers (although arguably that happened with Spider-Man on OMD/BND) for comedy's sake, even if it comes off forced. Hickman's Avengers eventually got characters to take even more dubious decisions that'd come off unheroic and felt like a holdover from the 00's widescreen, high stakes era where hundreds to thousands to millions of innocents die to give the story some weight. Superior Spider-Man encouraged them to do more hero-as-villain or villain-replaces-hero stories.
Miles Morales replacing Peter Parker happened in the Ultimate universe and happened long before Avengers vs X-Men, but it's not hard to see them get encouraged by the reception to Miles, and watch Comics Alliance and other places attack DC for focusing only on straight white males, and so in turn push forth other replacement heroes. Of course the biggest flaw was replacing too many heroes too the same time and not letting the audience get used to them.
Oliver Wilson
Not much. Iron Man sort of saw an increase when Fraction was writing it, but that's compared to the sales of the series prior to Fraction. Hulk had high sales the year his movie was out, but that was mainly because Loeb and McGuinness and the mystery of the Red Hulk. I don't believe Captain America or Thor's films helped the series sales much.
The Avengers movie might've helped sales on Avengers vs X-Men, but it was also an event and it was Avengers fighting X-Men, so that may not entirely be movie boosted. The year that the first Avengers movie was out also had Avengers Assemble, a side book by Bendis which had the Avengers happen to have the movie line-up (Cap, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Black Widow, Hawkeye) and uncoincidentally fighting Thanos and guest-starring the Guardians of the Galaxy. That book didn't do well in subsequent sales, in either monthly or TPB form. So no movie boost there. Bendis' Age of Ultron also didn't get any noticeable boost when Whedon's Age of Ultron was in theaters.
Deadpool trades might've seen increased sales because of the film but I haven't checked to see if that's true.
Landon Johnson
Not sure about numbers, but around 2011 or 2012 I remember Marvel and DC making bigger campaigns (like nu52 and later Marvel Now) to sell comics to normies. It does help that both movies (Dark Knight, Avengers) and vidyas (MvC3, Arkham) were well received. So I guess there was a little more interest, but not exactly readers.
Adam Lewis
that Quesadilla cover is shit
Jonathan Cox
the only thing of value the man's ever drawn is this and it shits skateboards
David Howard
09-13 was when i was down on marvel like how most of Sup Forums is now
Nathaniel Nguyen
that site was always shit, period.
Ian Cox
>Check the difference between the first Kamala collection and Vol 2. No one came back for seconds.
the large part of that was roping her into events like civil war 2 + dealing with the avengers AND inhumans baggage
kamala works in a self contained environment and pushing her into the greater marvel universe too much too fast is what ultimately killed the book's momentum