Was Joey Q's tenure as EiC underrated?

Was Joey Q's tenure as EiC underrated?
I mean, Marvel got even worse as soon as he left (2011)

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I have penis cancer.

I'm sorry what?

No More Day? Chaos War? Civil War? House of M? The rise of Bendis?

Marvel was in dire fucking straights for over a decade and any decent books were because of individual writers not because of this hack.

remember when people stood at conventions to call out quasada on OMD and OMIT and he started screaming at them that they didn't know what they wanted and to shut up (roughly paraphrased)

Bendis was only good when Jemas was around; Jemas had the vision to want to try things were knew, Quesada had the connections to know who to hire. When left to his own devices once Jemas left we got shit like OMD, Disassembled, M-Day and Civil War.

That should be Quesada rather, not Bendis.

>people are going to revisionist history Quesada just like they did Shooter.
Please no.

Quesada and Jemas were awful. Most Marvel EiCs are awful.

Marvel was still dogshit under Quesada, though. Civil War did damage to Marvel that still hasn't been fixed.

Shooter had flaws, but his quality control was spot on. He was extremely passionate about keeping comics accessible and satisfying to the reader.

Quesada began milking the idea of events, leading to Alonso making it worse.

yes, he was fun and took risks

Don't get nostalgic for one of the shittiest editor in chiefs in comics just because he left behind an even shittier replacement.

>Disassembled, M-Day and Civil War

Say what you will about the quality overall of those events but they had good underlying ideas and basically saved the Avengers as a franchise. OMD is total shit though.

That Quesada... I think that it's pretty clear what spider-man fans know.

I mean, I'm not even a Spider-Man fag but I know what they want

>Was Joey Q's tenure as EiC underrated?

Fuck no.

Quesada had a ton of shitty moves like OMD and giving Bendis free reign to do whatever, but at least he had some pluses like getting Ennis to do Punisher MAX and Ultimate Marvel's early years. What successes does Alonso have?

want*

But at least when Jemas left Quesada got rid of his stupid "all comics must have upper/lowercase lettering" rule.

Jemas did some things that needed to be done to modernize Marvel's old-fashioned culture, but he imposed so many stupid arbitrary rules. Not only the lettering, but he wouldn't allow stories to have flashbacks, writers weren't allowed to use thought bubbles even if they wanted to, etc. It was as bad in its own way as the stupid arbitrary rules of Old Marvel.

I'll give Quesada this, that once Jemas was gone he tolerated a much wider variety of styles at Marvel than any other EiC. You had Bendis's new-school Avengers alongside Nicieza's old-school Thunderbolts (revived after Jemas canceled it) and Brubaker's Captain America was sort of in between. For a while there it really didn't feel like all the books were the same, like they do now.

I think Joe Q had a pretty good run up until he let Bendis and OMD happen. Those were the moments when he went full retard.

He basically saved the company after the 90s and Jemas but stuff like Civil War, OMD, and Bendis enabling laid the ground work for ruining the company today. He's a mixed bag basically.

>underrated

How about overrated? The X-books still haven't recovered from the havoc created by his boy Bendis and HoM. The same for Spider-Man with OMD. He is just as responsible as Alonso for the current situation at the House of Ideas.

Marvel went to shit because Quesada pushed it that way. He made some of the WORST books, that ruined characters to this day.

Yeah, Spider-Man is what we want. But it's just a book using the same name, without the character we loved.

I started reading Marvel as soon as Joe Q got the EiC job. The good stuff that came out of it?

Canceled all superfluous X-Titles (shit was getting retarded)
Cancelled all superfluous Spidey books
Got rid of the Comics Code Authority crap
Marvel MAX and Alias (fuck you guys, it was good Bendis)
JMS on Spidey
Spider-Man's Tangled Web (rotating cadre of amazing artists and writers)
Ultimate Spidey (Fuck you guys, it was good)
X-Statix (originally usurping X-Force)
A Hulk Mini by Richard fuckin' Corben of all people?
Bruce Jones' Hulk Run

I think I officially jumped ship right around Brand New Day. I stuck around for Waid's Daredevil but that ended.

>writers weren't allowed to use thought bubbles even if they wanted to
This is one of the factors that shapes 21st-century comic book writing.

there were some pretty great runs under him, but the overall direction he took the company in was complete shit

He really did that? Why?

He was the one that started back up the Us vs Them mentality of the big two because he "missed the rivalry" which was the groundwork for the current company war faggotry running rampant everywhere, so no, fuck Quesadilla.

Quality control as in keeping the whole line mediocre.

Video please.

So Karen Berger is still the best EiC?

Secret Wars :P

>that they didn't know what they wanted
The marriage to come back? Just a thought, I mean, it's what we've been autistically screeching about for ages.

The underlying ideas were shit as were the results. Those are three of the single most cancerous stories Marvel ever produced and their effects still haven't gone away.

Endless hip-hop and baby variants duh.

That's a really good option, so yeah, it probably was her. I don't know too much about the behind-the-scenes operations at Vertigo, but things definitely got much worse when she was canned

I'm not saying Jemas was perfect because yeah, he wasn't. But Quesada unleashed led to an overall and sustained decline in quality that's gotten us to where we are now. The X-Men especially have been screwed over hard because they had a great identity and status quo that really modernized and injected new life into the concept only for it to be pissed away within a year of Morrison leaving.

And I say that as someone who's not terribly high on Morrison's run either. The "mutants as a growing social class and culture" with their own entertainers, architects and artists, neighborhoods, celebrities, crime, etc. is ace and Quesada ruined it because he thought having a lot of mutants made the X-Men "no longer special" and hated the idea of people using "mutant" as an origin crutch.

People rightly complain about OMD but what he did to the X-Men was far worse.

I think a case could be made for Jenette Kahn who took over as EiC for DC in 1989. DC's '90s quality could be up and down depending on what was being done but by all accounts she gave creators a bit of a more free reign to try new things and the overall quality of '90s DC speaks for itself. Vertigo wouldn't exist without her either.

I think the biggest argument is the stead nosedive in quality DC took after she left in 2002, something they're only just now starting to pull themselves up from.

No, you incessant contrarian. Many fucking characters were saved and/or defined during that era. Many big time runs that were fresh with imagination and characterization were present under Shooter, such as Grunewald Cap, Simonson Thor, Roger Stern Spidey, and more. The only time it was shit was when Shooter tried to pick his nose into things too closely like shilling Secret Wars and the fact he was difficult to work with.

That some nice revision history.

>People rightly complain about OMD but what he did to the X-Men was far worse.

This. Spidey just needs a new creative team, and maybe undoing OMD, but X-men is in such a sorry state that it would take years to bring them back to glory, and that is even with top talent.

Just stop rehashing the time travel, mutant hate, PHOENIX and Xavier vs Magneto and you are good to go.

Your examples literally prove my point. Daredevil and the Nam are the only series from that time which stand out. 80s was a great and an influential time for comics and Shooter failed to adapt. He thought that it was the DC office of the 60s. Shooter also completely killed the non superhero titles at Marvel.

>Simonson Thor and Gruenwald Cap don't stand out

And we will keep screeching about for years to come because being a spiderfag is pure suffering

Only if you have low standards. This was the era where Moore was writing Captain Britain, Swamp Thing and Miracleman, while Marvel had Byrne masquerading as a writer.

...

What the hell has DC done to him for him to hate them this much? I know DC is a competitor o Marvel but at least they're professional about it. To the point that anyone at DC who shit talk Marvel (the most famous was the Warren Ellis/Stan Lee incident) got told to STFU.
Quesada is such a fucking man child.

Quesada was a better Editor than a writer.

I long for the days when Marvel had editorial and didn't just let it's twitter personality authors shit out whatever they want incoherently across the panels - tied word balloons to the wrong characters, forgetting to scan in graphics over placeholders, needless pages devoted to the characters "meta" conversation ripping on the haters.

fucking this
Joey Q did jack shit for Marvel except build a culture of cronyism and OMD was his swan song

>To the point that anyone at DC who shit talk Marvel (the most famous was the Warren Ellis/Stan Lee incident) got told to STFU
DC cancelled The Boys (which was selling well) not because of sex or violence but as soon as The Legend appeared who was an unflattering caricature of Stan Lee.

I thought it was cancelled because it was so blatantly anti-superhero. And I'm pretty sure The Legend didn't appear until after DC cancelled it

Joe Quesada tanked Spider-man sales and the book took fucking years to recover.

Totes meant Jeanette Kahn, she was actually boss as fuck. But Karen Berger was amazing too.

I don't even think it needs undoing of OMD much as I'd like the marriage back in the 616. It just needs some direction and competence; Slott's run is frustrating because you can see bits and pieces of good or workable ideas that are completely squandered due to incompetence. Look at the most recent issue: Pete back at the Bugle is eh but running the science section? That's good... and the story is spent on Bobbi being a cunt to Peter. Quicksand's use would be great as a seed to redemption for her since Spidey has a long history of converting low level enemies into allies and with Molten Man written off she could take his place. But either she won't show up again or she'll just be a standard villain again.

This also brings me into another problem. I like Spider-Man mostly hanging around low level characters. I like him having schlubs like Molten Man, Puma, Prowler or Cardiac he can call on when he needs help with his biggest ally being Johnny Storm. That's why I hate Spider-Man on the Avengers and I fucking hate the "JLA as done by Marvel" concept of post-Disassembled Avengers. Avengers works best with big name mainstays to lead the book and a cast of characters who otherwise can't hold their own title to fill out the roster. This allows for the Avengers to from their own identity, their own Avengers-specific characters, etc. Making it all big names (and masturbatory Bendis bullshit characters like Cage and Spider-Woman) completely ruins it. The Avengers stops being its own unique corner and now becomes full of characters you can read about everywhere else too.

Of course in the last few years they've gone the opposite direction too and it's become full of nothing but Literally Whos and characters who absolutely don't belong on the Avengers like Rogue, Deadpool, Cable or Brother Voodoo.

>(the most famous was the Warren Ellis/Stan Lee incident)
I don't know about this. Explain?

>What successes does Alonso have?

Pre-Marvel Now and the Marvel Now period was good.

He did end up killing Marvel with too many relaunches and going way too heavy with the diversity and replaced heroes.

Why can't Marvel ever hold a good marriage together?

Because neither can the writers/editors. Also because they have no imagination.

Oh wow, a thread actually talking about comics.

Berger was never EiC of any publisher. She was the executive editor of Vertigo.

They never cancelled Hitman even though it was a direct attack on DC's superheroes rather than through caricatures of them.

it was never as overtly mean-spirited as The Boys, though. And The Boys is basically entirely about shitting on superheroes, while Hitman is about a hitman who occasionally makes fun of Batman and Green Lantern. And sucks Superman's dick.

>And The Boys is basically entirely about shitting on superheroes
Because it's too edgy for Wildstorm, it's moved to Dynamite, which publishes licensed comics since its inception unlike IDW.

Not to mention that Shooter tried to create a completely new superhero universe but ultimately failed.

Twice, counting Valiant.
It's sad, too. the New Universe and pre-Acclaim Valiant had so many good ideas and characters.

I don't want that but why would I bother talking about it, you huys are loud as fuck anyways.

Post house of M x-men was great until utopia. i have no idea how we've sunken so low.

No he's a huge faggot that took the friendly rivalry too far. He's one of the reasons we can't have any more crossovers. With Alonso gone though that's 1/3 of the people stopping a crossover gone.

>tfw no more friendly baseball games
Fuck that guy.

He's still bitter they cancelled Azrael apparently.

I liked that game, the idea that the big two could get along was nice. It's like when a writer or artist went over to the competition they'd mention it in the letters column or editorial and wish them luck.
Comics are too small of an industry to make enemies.

I literally say in that post that I meant Jeanette Kahn, was just saying that Karen Berger was still awesome!

Joe Quesadilla I would say is the worst thing to ever happen to Marvel. Everyone looks at 2000-2011 with rose colored glasses, and forget it slid really hard during these years in quality.

Just proof that spics like him and alonso shouldn't be in charge of anything more complex than a leaf blower.

>Just proof that spics like him and alonso shouldn't be in charge of anything more complex than a leaf blower.

Why does Sup Forums have to come over here and pretend they read comics? Seriously, if you'd just begun with the first sentence it would be fine, but you didn't.

Also, Joe Quesada is Italian, not Hispanic you fucking weirdo. And if you want to shit on Italians why aren't you shitting on Carmine Infantino? If you want to shit on Hispanics why don't you shit on George Perez?

>Quesada
>awful
had a lot of bad shit but the 00s were a pretty nice time to be a marvel fan, sans some dumb things

Jemas and Quesada revived Marvel after the terrible 90s, but Quesada went on to sink his own ship.

>>pretending there's a difference between hispanics and italians

they're all shitskins, silly girl.

Civil War and House of M were events that not only were story by themselves, but drove the overall Marvel Universe afterwards and even future events. They had high sales and gave overall unified directions to Marvel's stories.

Now, they had storytelling issues, but from an editorial position they were big successes. Current Marvel can't even make event tie-ins sell anymore and tries to completely bury event after matches as quickly as possible. And, yeah, lost that ability to make long range plans and push an overall direction right alongside Joe Quesada's exit (January 2011). Even something as big as Avengers vs X-Men and the new Secret Wars failed to drive new directions for the Marvel Universe in a way comparable to the peak of the events under Quesada.

>OMD
>WWH
>Secret Invasion
>Messiah War
>House of M and The 198

Marvel Knights and Ultimate was good though

because people hated OMD

if i put it up marvel would just yank it down again. it was a huge thing back when it happened though, marvel threatened to embargo a site that covered it.

>they're all shitskins, silly girl.

So, so called comic book fan, please explain to me how either George Perez, or Carmine Infantino (just to name two) are shit? Please fucking explain that to me?

Fuck off back to Sup Forums

What's wrong with Chaos War?

>and with Molten Man written off she could take his place


He has no powers, but he popped up as an Alchemax employee in one issue and is pretty much evil again, hiring Ghost to blow up Parker Industries without any care for fatalities.

>I think the biggest argument is the stead nosedive in quality DC took after she left in 2002, something they're only just now starting to pull themselves up from

That is because after Kahn went, DC fired all their good editors like Dan Raspler and Denny O'Neil. The Occasional Superheroine blogger documents how those firings were pretty demoralizing within DC at the time it happened.

That's sort of what I meant. No powers, randomly a villain again too. It's retarded. Slott's treatment of him and Liz is so bad.

He meant Garth Ennis, not Warren Ellis.

>And I'm pretty sure The Legend didn't appear until after DC cancelled it

It was publically cancelled with #6, but you forget that comics have to be done in advance. Most likely they had #7 (Legend's first appearance) finished and DC higher-ups went over it. Also possible they had other issues at the ready, as well.

>Also, Joe Quesada is Italian, not Hispanic you fucking weirdo.

That guy you responded to is an idiot but Quesada is Cuban.

So an island Mexican?

>The Occasional Superheroine blogger
Stopped reading there.

Not to mention Levitz had it out for Wildstorm for a long time.

bleedingcool.com/2017/04/06/mark-millars-take-legion-superheroes-almost-got-planetary-cancelled/

Ennis and Hitman had protection from within DC.

Most of the guys protecting him were fired or had moved on by then.

WS always was overrated shit.

>Quesada
>guy who launched Marvel Knight and Marvel Max
>lines that became the best Marvel has been since the 80s
>Bad

People just get mad at his later tenure, but he was again under the thumb of marketing and shareholders telling him to do more events and any gimick to sell more comics

Yeah, and they also forced him to keep hiring Greg Land.

Even if you specifically don't, you would be in the minority of spider-fags. Mostly everyone else wants it to come back.

Jesus. Really? How tense are we talking? Like, full blown screeching or just a bit of arguing?

MAX only had one good series

oh no, one bad artist that still somehow sells. Who the fuck cares, he will always get work. Quesada brought in Priest, Whedon, Bendis (the early stuff is great), Ennis, and Ellis

>Who the fuck cares, he will always get work
>Quesada brought in Priest
Casual spotted. Everyone go home.