Red pill me on why raising the minimum wage is good or bad Sup Forums

Red pill me on why raising the minimum wage is good or bad Sup Forums

I see nothing wrong wth it.

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Why not just make it $100 an hour if there's nothing wrong with it?

Why not raise the minimum wage to 100$?

once you raise the minimum wage you don't think anything else would? you don't think the cost of living would increase, the milk in your store, the cars at your dealer? with that also comes make taxes as well.

Minimum wage jobs aren't supposed to be careers

why not raise it to 100?

Because you are too stupid to understand that wages don't need to be raised, MONEY needs to become more valuable again.

My Grandfather made a dollar a day and bought a house that is today worth over a million dolalrs. That is how fucked our money is.

Why not raise it to $100/hr.?

Labor is a good. When you raise the cost of something you get less of it. Simple economics.

If you absolutely need proof, look to Seattle.

washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/29/study-raising-the-minimum-wage-did-little-for-workers-earnings-in-seattle/

It's good to raise the minimum wage because it will make it so only the skilled are around.

You're dangerously stupid

why not just increase the minimum wage to $100.
there's nothing wrong with that.

Straw men arguments

Miniscully. Services and goods are barely higher in countries with higher min. Wage

Read "Economics in One Lesson".

Continue.

>Miniscully. Services and goods are barely higher in countries with higher min. Wage
Explain how this is possible to me.

That is not a strawman argument.

It works when minimum wage corrects itself with the market, it's wrong when politicians rise it artificially, then it lowers the money purchasing power (with the same amount of money you can buy less).

True but they are a job. Jobs are there to help you pay bills and buy neccessities.

Go back to a gold or silver standard then? That would be ideal.

The same reason we don't raise taxes to 100%. Or that you can argue for lowering taxes without abolishing them.

There is some cases where using an extreme case can be useful in an argument. This isn't one of them.

...So you have more just on paper, not in the reality, it's even funnier - in reality you have less. Plus minimum wage also rises the tax you pay to the government budget. You get screwed twice.

Look at the average cost of normal goods versus the minimum wages in countries that have a high min wage

raising the min wage also leads to ====> higher cost of living

wanna know why

landlords can change rent
companies can charge more for commodities
people cant hire as many employees if the company hasnt made progress under the new system

there you go

Everyone says that a higher minimum wage is good and helps the economy and only punishes muh evil corporations, so why not?

technically it is, because you're not answering the question, just erecting an even more absurd version of the question which doesn't even exist.

but i understand the point your making, it's why he's attacking it on fallacious grounds. it's a good argument. the cost of labor has a real impact on the availability of labor.

Examples?

Also, I can definitely tell you if the minimum wage is raised, There will be an increase in other jobs proportionally, just because of the perceived devaluation of the dollar. Meaning if the minimum wage is increased and that's the bottom rung, then every job that was paying higher than the former minimum wage will have to have a pay increase. I'm not saying that is good or bad, but if you think there will not a a direct correlation between minimum wage and products/services produced by minimum wage labor, then you are simply unreachable as to why it is or is not a good idea, because that's simply THE reason why someone would say it is or is not good.

>Raise minimum wage to $15/hr
>Milk goes from $5 to $10
>Gas goes from $3 to $6.50
>Taxes (not just income) go from 10% to 35%
>Rent goes up
>Home values go up
The list goes on, really.

Because as a result, all the bosses and CEOs who are paying the higher minimum wage inflate prices to make up for their losses.

Just look at McAmerifatHambugerMayonaisse, their burgers went from 79 cents to 1.50 just because of the last couple minimum wage increases in the past couple years.

Trump should abolish the federal minimum wage.

Even Walmart and McDonald's start you off at more than minimum. Who would it affect? Cashiers at a grocery store?

It's bad because it hurts the least fortunate most of all.

>doesn't offer any actually arguments for not raising it to $100/hr

What's more interesting is having a maximum wage proportionate to how much your lowest paid worker is making in a company. Say you can only make 20x more than your lowest paid employee. Perhaps on a sliding scale correlating to your gross profit allowing how much you could pay yourself to how little you could pay your employees.

Like tax brackets.

Minimum wage is a safety net. Minimum wage jobs were never meant to be sustainable. Even retards can get a $30k job if they try.

Because there isn't a law stating we can't change the prices of goods and services.
Assume that a store has 10 workers and those 10 workers make 10 dollars an hour.
I raise their minimum wage by 1 dollar, they now make 11.
I can charge more for average sale of goods so that I make back the profit of said 10 dollars. By raising the wage of everything in the store by cents.

Now compare that to a corporation with thousands of employees and with minimum wage going from +1 dollar to +5 dollars.
Everywhere you go, every store in the country now cost more.
Negating the minimum wage raise that happened in the first place.

Minimum wage is the biggest scam the Democrats ever came up with.

>Jobs are there to help you pay bills and buy neccessities.
No, jobs are there because people who produce goods and services often need labor, and a "job" is what happens when someone else agrees to provide that labor in exchange for money

That's some backwards communism type shit.

Trump won, not Hillary

Seen those infrographics the library's on kilebook post of McDonald's n shot? Many of the Scandinavian socialist contries have minimum of $20 but their Big Macs only cost maybe 50cents more.

So what helps you pay bills and buy neccessities

Not exactly the minimum wage. The reason the dollar menu went the way of the dinosaur was because of pressure from the outside for better pay which McD isn't giving up money do they have to make up for it somewhere.

You can apply the minimum wage raise keeping in mind the annual income of the employer. A large corporation who earns in hundreds of millions annually can afford a minimum wage raise for its employees, a small restaurant run by some guy in a small town can't

But as the most prosperous civilized and powerful country ever, America can afford to take this step and look out more for the less fortunate.

>Inb4 muh Socialism

>Who would it affect?
if anything, it would have a positive effect, providing opportunities for young and/or unskilled people to enter the workforce in positions that would otherwise be too expensive for employers to staff because they're simply not worth $7/hr

Too high minimum wage and unskilled job go away. Large portions of the population would be unemployed. Too low minimum wage and people can't pay for food and housing. Either you accept that hard working families starve to death or you need some kind of (governmental or private) welfare to prevent starvation of the lowest paid. If starvation was an option the market would adjust itself since labour shortage would arise. But having working people starve to death in a modern society is politically impossible since people actually are decent human beings the alternative is some kind of welfare. Problem is, this actually becomes a kind of corporate welfare since the government or individuals actually subsidise the businesses who pay starvation wages.

>comparing a tiny country of homogeneous culture and tastes with a controlled economy to the US
top grade kek or legitimate retard, not sure

Because having a minimum wage is a ban on labor that is not worth as much as the minimum wage. Why shouldn't I be able to do some shit task for cheap money? The government is restricting my ability to do things I want to do.

Then that's reductio ad absurdum, you fucking cumstain.

It hurts anyone not making minimum wage.

>company is forced to pay employees more
>raises prices
>those making minimum wage have more money, so this is less of a problem
>those not making minimum wage do not have their salaries increased, but must now pay more for goods and services

...

>Straw men arguments
No, it isn't. Why $15? Why not $15.01? Why not $15.02? Why not $16? Why not $20? Why not $100?

>look ma i read the sticky
good for you

Here.

Minimum wage is meant for high school kids and felons.

If you are not one of those two, and earn minimum wage it appears you have made some bad choices. Probably marijuana and video games.

>Mark lives in poverty
>mark can't afford higher schooling
>has to work two min. wage jobs so he can slowly start saving up money
>raise to $9.50, account for local economies
>don't go to $15, that's just fucking dumb

The real problem with America is poverty.

Stops greed flat in its tracks though.

I think it needs to be raised to be livable. Labor is undervalued and working people need to be able to afford food and housing on their own.

When you keep minimum wage low, you're subsidizing corporations. Their workers will draw on welfare to make up the difference.

Illegals also keep the wage artificially low, and I think measures against illegal immigration will help raise the average wage naturally without requiring a minimum wage increase.

sauce pls

Ill point out another one since this hasn't been pointed out yet.

Small business will be devastated.

Inc min wage demands them to garner less profit. If business doesn't grow its not doing well. If your small company had 20 workers who get 10$ an hour, you pay them with about 8000 per week. Now if thats increased to 15$...12000$ a week.

If you want your profit (for growth) naturally you lay people off... naturally, people who dont work arent going to spend.

Big companies like mickiD? Lay off everyone, use machine booths and hire an repairman for 15$ an hour.

Well I disagree. I think minimum wage acts better as a safety net than anything.

We can argue for days about whether livable income is a natural right for everyone (and whether it will work or not) so I will end it there.

>"I can't make my case so I give up for now."
Think on this. It's because your argument for minimum wage is wrong.

That would be genius to apply minimum wage correlating to the amount of profit at said store or corporation takes in. Would be better than applying broadly to every single job

Minimum wage increases harm small businesses and prevent people from working as it shrinks the number of jobs that firms can supply.

Minimum wage basically cuts out the bottom of the labor market. For example, if minimum wage was set to $10, then every job that is worth less than $10 simply doesn't get done.

The market does a better job of setting prices than bureaucratic committees.

Deflation comes with it's own set of problems.

Besides, its all relative. If we knocked off two zeros from our currency and changed nothing else our dollar would look more valuable as your father would have been earning $100 modern dollars a day.

Not a difficult amount to achieve, but certainly comfortable.

3% of the hourly work force.
Rather have a job and barely make it or not have a job at all and depend on the system?

>whether livable income is a natural right for everyone (and whether it will work or not)
of course it's not (and of course it won't)

How do you make college affordable? Give money to people to go to college? Yes, that has done wonders driving down the cost of tuition.

If you start subsidizing existence, than the cost of those things that allow it (food, water, shelter) will go up. it's free fucking money, business will be happy to take that guarantee of a "living wage" and rob everyone blind in the process.

Studies time and again have shown that minimum wage is neither helpful nor hindering to those that earn it.

Assuming that minimum wage is to be raised on the federal level you can see other changes besides the easy fewer jobs meme.

The federal level sets a bar that ignores cost of living, so while a $15 minimum wage isn't much in California, it's fucking huge in poorer places like Alabama where the consumer basket of goods is cheaper. So Joe Blow the local butcher in Mississippi or Iowa has a few options:

1) Lay off employees to compensate costs. On a company's income statement, generally the biggest expense is salary/wages. Laying someone off would make a massive dent into the now twice as big expense account, but is not ethically great.

2) Raise the price of products/services. You may not need to fire your employee but you need to make up for your costs in revenue, either by raising selling prices or raising the gross margin by cutting costs with the supplier, or overhead expenses if possible. You keep the employees but risk losing customers due to higher prices.

If you're one of those anti corporate big business types you should be lamenting big increases in minimum wage, because it heightens the barrier to entry for small businesses while it's a dent for bigger businesses.
(Cont.)

There are too many workers and not enough employers. So there are two major questions to consider:

1. Why aren't more people trying to start businesses?
2. Why are employers paying people as little money as possible instead of a fair share of the business?

For the first one, people are lazy and expect everything to be handed to them. For the second one, people are greedy and do not care about the success of the nation or their fellow citizens. Raising minimum wage addresses neither of these problems.

And what is "livable"?

At this point minimum wage jobs are stepping stones for people to use to get out of poverty.

And apart from that:
Corporations, manufacturers and literally everyone who's not a tiny local business will look to maximise profits.
So the prices will go up because muh minimum wage, and the companies will invest into automation. Machines, scripts and programs that take care of what specialised accountants do, shit like that.
It already happens with McDonald's for example - even in Poland they're running more automated registers than clerks.
So less people in the work force, while the prices stay the same because why the fuck not.

Eventually someone sees it's all fucked up and repeals the minimum wage rise. But it fixes nothing. Prices might go down, but employment lost to automation sparked by the minimum wage rise won't miraculously come back - companies now have the tech and invested hard money into making it work.

>there are too many people with a degree and not enough paper-shuffler jobs
fixed. the trades always need people. do you not listen to mike rowe?

See

Idiot

Because all minimum wage does is price out the competition. It fucks over anyone who can't provide labor equal to $15/h, or whatever the minimum is. This is why cities with the highest minimum wages also have the highest unemployment rates among low-skilled workers, mainly teenagers. Look at Seattle's employment statistics since they raised theirs.

It also puts a big strain on small businesses. It hurts the same people it's supposed to help. It sets an artificial price floor, which reduces the amount of jobs and increases demand/competition for those jobs because they now pay higher, which leads to low-skilled workers being beaten by more educated/experienced people.

Should be kept up with inflation or cost of living, etc. Nothing more.

Good. Because it an uncompetitive labour market (perfect competition is a myth), firms can pay workers wages below their marginal benefit. A good minimum wage will tell places like McDonalds, no fuck off and pay them their true value

However obviously "living wage" is above this and unrealistic

Redpill me on this image.

poor deflection.

The minimum wage could also be $200 or $1,000, we can't raise the taxes beyond 100%

It is not an extreme, it is another option.

What is wrong with 100 that is not wrong with 15?

Who ever said I can't make my case? I spent literal days obsessed with debates on minimum wage with anons in Sup Forums multiple times.

There is no reward for doing this so I am just staying out of it.

Also, seeing how your other comment is against high minimum wage, you are on my side and shouldn't be arguing with me. You obviously have bad reading comprehension skills.

Should automatically adjust according to economic data on a regional (smaller than state, bigger than county) basis that allows for basic food, shelter and other essentials. Preferably even a little extra to participate in the market.

He never counted min wage jobs as adult jobs. He was talking about actual wage jobs for adults. He wanted those jobs to be well-paying enough for a man to support a family.

Gas prices would barely change at all

Milk wouldn't change that much.

Rent would go haywire. Could potentially more than double at the lower end of the spectrum.

What may cause this cry out for increase in minimum wage? A huge factor is increasing rent prices across the country that aren't kept up by wages. One rational explanation is increases in property taxes that the landlords ultimately need to compensate for. Since many are their own business, their option is to 2) Raise the price (rent) of goods and services. If you want to lower rent costs, start off by cutting property taxes.

Also it's important to note that more money entering the hands of the workforce means more money injected in the economy, which results in inflation. Inflation's been really stable lately, but it's still not beneficial for Trayvon who finally got that $20 wage he was begging for.

There's talk about modifying minimum wage for anyone over an age bracket or has a family to raise, but that's still likely a long shot from reality.

Simply put, if you were a Bernfag yelling for a $15 minimum wage because you're working at McDick's and need more money, you're an absolute retard. Prove yourself as a valuable resource with skills and knowledge.

Why is this bitch typing with a keyboard and a printer? Where the fuck is the monitor?

PRICE FLOORS ARE OBJECTIVELY BAD 100% OF THE TIME

READ A BOOK

Because if you take a business like McDonald's, take hourly profit, reduce it by fixed and variable costs other than labour, divide it by number of workers, you get an amount far above what workers are being paid

Without anti competition laws workers will be exploited and paid as little as possible. The market for labour is not competitive, the employers have more power and can push down wages

You shouldn't be working minimum wage unless if you're a humble bastard who can pull a thousand outta their pockets.

that sounds shitty as fuck and easily gamed. why would i live in a shitty part of the country if i'm guaranteed a "living wage" wherever i go? i can make more free money if i'm in a place where the cost of living in highest.

the road to hell is truly paved with good intentions.

>>ITT cucks who dont understand that we will all be living off of basic income once our robot overlords replace all of your pajeet tier jobs

Employers AKA rich fucks will have to pay poor people more which will give the poor people more money to spend which will increase demand and spur economic growth.

Employers hire people based off of how much demand there is for their product, not based off of how much money they have in their pocket. You don't just hire extra people when you don't need them.

There is no good argument against raising the minimum at this point.

How do you know this?

A minimum wage job is literally defined as one that allows you to live off the income it provides.

You keep saying to go look at these statistics but you aren't providing any? Why should this conversation continue?

Never heard of a typewriter?

Well, what you do then? Continue subsidizing low corporate wages?

Leaving people to starve isn't an option.

any kind of government involvement in the free market is bad, including price fixing or minimum wages.

the free market will determine the minimum wage that workers are willing to do the job for. setting an arbitrary minimum interferes with the market, increasing costs on the business operator and forcing them to either increase prices or reduce jobs to compensate

He asked for the red-pill not the blue-pill you insufferable moron

>Employers hire people based off of how much demand there is for their product, not based off of how much money they have in their pocket
Can you believe this guy? Manages to mention market forces in the same sentence that he's denying labor is a good with A COST THAT AFFECTS DEMAND, HOLY SHIT.

Ultimately it changes nothing. It creates a temporary bubble. You change minimum wage, and everything else bumps up in cost over time as it adjusts to that change. It's neither good, nor bad, EXCEPT...

... meanwhile, while everything's adjusting, that in itself has a maintenance cost. Some people are going to get fired, it destabilizes expectations, and you have to pay oversight fees to ensure that the minimum wage was altered successfully. At the end of the day, nothing changes, since costs will go up by a proportional mount, but you still have to pay all the bureaucrats who signed the papers to implement the change.

This raises the heavy foot of government.

What you WANT to do instead is to reduce the cost living, by focusing on the key aspects that a person needs to survive, such as housing, food, utilities, etc. And then implement surgical policies to target exactly those areas of the economy, without shaking the entire system from its foundation.

If you reduce the cost of living, then poor people aren't as poor, even though they're making the exact same wages as before. Because--and you'll never understand economics if you don't get this next point--currency isn't wealth.

It's not. It really isn't. Currency is what you use to keep track of wealth. It's not wealth itself. Oh how easy it would be if it were--you could just print out all the currency you wanted, and everyone would be rich, right?

Unfortunately, that's not how physical reality works. Not until someone invents a 3d printer that works at the atomic scale to print out sandwiches and batteries, like some Star Trek replicator type bullshit.

People like you are the reason we send work outside of America. Good job.

It should be at the state level than Federal. Most states, it's so low, it probably won't matter much. However, raising the minimum wage is an economically unsound tool. If you believe sugar taxes will discourage purchases of sugary drinks and foods, why wouldn't a raise in the minimum wage discourage employment? Why do economic principals cease to exist when it suits your agenda?

No min wage, and get rid of Affirmative action and Child labor laws. No more regulations. No license for anything. re-Implement Glass-Steagal or better yet repeal Contractum Trinius

Not exactly. If you are an employer and you are making profit, you can invest. There are others employers with money to invest too. If you invest and it goes right, you earn more money, but in order to do that, you need employees. To get some, you need to offer, at least, more money than they already earn.
Thats how humanity gets richer. Check out Estonia average wage through recent years, its incredible.

where the fuck is the monitor this is kicking my autism into overdrive