Tom Brevoort confirmed as a liar

From the Jim Starlin Fanpage on Facebook

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Tom Brevoort is a shit unprofessional editor, that we already knew

Wow, he should sue. I would just to spite them.

>get Starlin back (again)
>do him dirty (again)
>run him off (again)
I can't even say I'm surprised anymore.

I like how he's actually taking this in strides rather than fucking being pissed.

The one thing I noticed about books coming from Brevoort's office is that their quality solely depends on the creative team, like no editing is done beyond proofreading and writing solicitations.

Most books at Marvel that have problems in the conception stage (such as the artist not suiting the pitch or tone of a story/character, or that make you wonder which sort of audience they are supposed to be aimed at) seem to be edited by Brevoort.

He was probably expecting something like this when he came back, it's not like it's the first time.

He's a veteran comic guy, he knows what to expect.

We know he did more than proofreading for Secret Invasion since he fixed a lot of Bendis's continuity errors and characterization:

thecomicboard.com/forum/showthread.php?10424-Secret-Invasion-discussion-Spoilers

DC should hire him again. We need the LoSH back.

Same with Civil War (read up on Millar's pitch).

They should give the Legion to Gerard Way.

>The one thing I noticed about books coming from Brevoort's office is that their quality solely depends on the creative team, like no editing is done beyond proofreading and writing solicitations.

How far back though? If 2010's then it's probably because of Ike downsizing the number of people in editorial without adding any replacements.

>only 3 issues a year

Yeah I can't argue that part of it.

Does this explain all the haunting similarities of his latest trilogy too?

>Annihilation
>Annihilus decides to fuck shit up major time. He needs the aid of an outsider (Thanos/Bultar) who provides him with cutting edge teleportation tech, and who doesn't know he wants to get rid of THIS ENTIRE EXISTENCE in the process.
>Annihilus gets souped up using an Earth hero (Quasar/Hulk)
>Annihilus weaponizes a being of unspeakable power razing the entire galaxy in the process (Galactus/Living Tribunal Warlock) until he's eventually stopped when he makes it to the solar system.

He can barely write Doom Patrol every other month.

Cause it's like the fourth time shit like this has happened. It's routine at this point.

There was almost a decade between Annihilation and his last trilogy. And his last trilogy was practically a sequel to Annihilation anyway. Not even remotely comparable.

...

His track record of DC cosmic stuff is, uh, polarizing at best. I'd rather have Hickman try out some LoSH

...

...

Why even do something like that? What profit reason could there be?

It felt like Annihilation Done Wrong as opposed to Annihilation 2 Annihilator Boogaloo.

You'd be surprised how much this happens. And what he's going to do? You have to prove that the other writers knew of the original or that tom gave them the idea with the intention to steal it.

The last part is pretty much the catch all. His defense could very easily be "I hear hundreds of pitches a month I can't keep it all straight."

WB and Disney wrote the laws on this shit, you think they're going to lose a petty ass suit over a storyline when they're publishing deadpool as if DC wouldn't have more right to him than they did to Fawcett's Marvel? You think anyone who's ever dealt with them would bring that suit against them? They'd be laughed out of whatever attorney's office they entered.

This is what makes him a professional
>I made the conscious decision not to associate with X because of this specific sheerly unprofessional behavior, directed towards me and other coworkers
He didn't try to bring down everyone with it, or claim it's because of some "cultural" thing that needs to get rid of nor did he reveal anything more than what was needed to make a point (instead of bringing up other conducts to further back his claim or start rumors like he certainly could have).
He's calmly giving an account of what's going to happen to a project of his that his fans were waiting for, he's not trying to start a hate campaign because he suffered misdeeds. That's what makes him a professional and it's a bit sad that it seems like old veterans are the only one who are left with this train of thought.

I disagree. I'd actually really dislike that.

Not that I think it's an opinion you can't hold, just that I vehemently disagree.

That's your opinion. Annihilation ain't perfect either.

>Called Bendis' Avengers a train wreck
well... maybe he isn't so bad.

Never said it was. But it sure didn't feel like a lukewarm rethread of a better story.

If anything Thanos was written rather shoddily (lel I'm bored) and that's keeping in mind I don't like Thanoswank either.

the zootopia dude tried it with less than what looks like scene for scene copies. He has more than a leg to stand on. It's still disgusting.

Most of the guys of Starlin's generation or earlier grew up having been edited by people like Stan, Weisinger or Schwartz; or people who learned under them like Shooter.

You might hate their guts but they did their job on time and professionally, and they expected the same of their artists and writers. That style has been lost.

>repeatedly deny the character's creator's attempts to write the ongoing
>let him write some graphic novels
>steal the plot of his graphic novels, tweak it, pass it down to other writers/artists
>lie to him with a repeatedly changing story about what happened
>do it just long enough so things are too far to change now
Brevoort is such a fucking scumbag. Marvel editorial in general is.

>Hickman on LoSH
Kindly kill yourself please. The biggest draw of Legion has always been the characters and Hickman cannot write interesting characters to save his life. I swear, people only mention him because he's an autistic guy who likes sci-fi and has said he's wanted to write them ignoring whether or not he'd be a good fit for them.

Oh yeah, it's a total retread because the villain is trying to do something bad and the heroes have to stop him. Never mind the fact that everything else about the story is completely different.

>All the similarities you pointed out are all excused as VILLAIN BAD HERO GOOD
Low energy.

>vaguely similar plot points like the villain getting a power up make it a total retread
Low indeed.

Jeeze, touched a nerve? Who would you like on LoSH right now, or would you rather them remain in limbo until a good writer comes along?

The vaguest thing on it at best is Quasar/Hulk. All the other beats are present including the fact that Annihilus is using an omnipotent being as fuel and the guys helping him get his jollies have no idea he wants to end the universe and are thoroughly appaled to learn of it.

marvel lying to starlin? que shock!

We did have a good writer: DnA.

They just sold like shit.

DnA couldn't write Brainiac 5 right.

Tom works at fucking Marvel. If he started to join in on the conversation maybe he wouldn't be so damn bored.

>"I hear hundreds of pitches a month I can't keep it all straight."
It's kind of his job, though.

and pitches aren't "200 pages of script and 100 pages of art"

>but if it makes you better, then you need to take it.
The medicine made him worse though.

user, are you starting to see that the "this shit is all fan fiction" is a complete lie? These people resent you and the things you like and wish you would shut the fuck up and just spend money instead of complaining about the shitty stories they're graciously GIVING you.

The story is structured completely differently outside of those 2-3 beats though. It's not a retread anymore than Aaron's Thor for dredging up Mangog yet again.

One might argue the medicine wasn't for the fans but for the sales.

which, IIRC, never got any real better until the events and crossovers(which would have likely got them up anyway)

>perfect opportunity to oust Brevoort as a jew
>do nothing

Good job faggot

Honestly, the only structural differences I can see is at the end with The One Above All Others and the metaphysical stuff Starlin tends to do so well (and that are definitely the strongest point in this).

It did feel to me it was "Annihilation 'done right'" (in Starlin's view) where Thanos isn't doing stuff because "he's bored".

Spider-Man sales are a fraction of what they were before OMD.

>It's kind of his job, though.
Which is why I said it's the catchall that usually saves them. It's plausible enough.

Which is why I said you have to prove intent to steal. The similarity does not matter if you can't prove that TB influenced the second project with information from the first. If it was just a second pitch he okayed the similarity isn't enough to show anything more than not doing his due diligence. We also don't know their contracts. I can't say definitively that marvel isn't entitled to a story line they own, even if it hasn't been printed yet. As in I don't know if the contract was for the storyline or for Jim to be the writer of said storyline he created.

There are so many legal protections there it'd be futile.


In all of this, I would prefer a world where Starlin could demand company emails and contacts and look for some kind of sketchy shit. Or even that Marvel would say "you know, our bad, we're taking a loss and that second project will never see the light of day even though we'll still pay those creators their fee. Maybe 10 years from now we'll do it as a retread book.". But that's not the world we live in.

>It's plausible enough.
Brevoort being shitty at his job? Refugee in incompetence?

>I can't say definitively that marvel isn't entitled to a story line they own, even if it hasn't been printed yet.
99,999%, Marvel is entitled to everything they get even just pitched.
The main problem here was lying to Starlin more than anything else, or at least that is what I gather from Starlin's post.

The best-case scenario here would be a "Original idea by Jim Starlin" in the credits.
MAYBE we'll get it in the TPs if Celbusky wants and can by then.

It's ironic, considering how pissy Brevoort was when Gerber pulled out something similar to him. He was "like, oy vey, he almost cost me job!!! muh internship!"

I have to be honest though, I can't sit here and say those other creators didn't come up with that idea completely independently. While I think I as a writer would allow (as in wouldn't put up a stink, as if anybody is telling their boss what is or is not happening) it in my book because if you're doing a cosmic Thanos book, you likely did take from Starlin even at a referential level. But I can understand someone being a bit hesitant or even angry if they were told they had to put someone's name on a story they sincerely think (and maybe did) come up with on their own.

I think it's why I appreciate Starlin's approach here. He's making sure it's Breevort he's airing out rather than those creators. because I'm sure he knows shit like that does happen, it's just editorial's job to tell the second party "sorry man, that's unfortunately not as original as you think. Starlin pitched it himself."

It's like that chick (it might have been Leth) saying DC took her Batman 89 idea she pitched when it was already derivative of their '66 book. First off, you pitched a story about shit you don't own, secondly that's a very realistic idea when they've already started a series with the date of the Adam West movie in the title.

interesting enough i learned recently that this is much harder to sue for in new york than california

>>I have to be honest though, I can't sit here and say those other creators didn't come up with that idea completely independently.
I could bet real money that time to time different creators pitch the basically same ideas independently. It happens.

To my understanding, it wasn't the issue: the problem was Starlin having already sent many pages of script and art and then being lied about other people using the same idea for the movie cash-in he was writing as a OGN because they refused it for the cash-in.

Frankly, Brevoort could have avoided all of this with a simple "they got the same idea but pitched it better" if he REALLY wanted to use Starlin's idea but not credit him.
Of course it would still leave him open to the authors telling otherwise to Starlin should he ever ask(ie: "Tom gave us the initial concept, we just run with it") but it would be leagues better than what he allegedly did(we technically only have Starlin's side: while I find it's most likely a sufficiently objective truth, it IS possible he's at very least biased)

> it's just editorial's job to tell the second party "sorry man, that's unfortunately not as original as you think. Starlin pitched it himself."
I remember the "99 ways to end the Clone Saga" special, in which exactly this happened.

>I remember the "99 ways to end the Clone Saga" special, in which exactly this happened.
that's fucking great. only someone who loves the thing they're ripping could make that joke. Now a days they could never be so on the nose because their stories don't display an innate love of the medium like they used to.

in that, they also discarded using Mephisto because he was "too cosmic" for Spider-Man. And because he was dead(IIRC Tom himself was the continuity-guy)

Where could you read that?

Is he talking about the arc set in the future, when Thanos has won?
Because "Thanos is the best, everybody jobs to him" is basically the plot of everything Starlin writes.

The upper heads in Marvel are seriously killing the company.
It doesn't matter how many Bendises they fire or how many classic characters they bring back, the state of the product will remain the same stinky pile of shit as long as these clowns are in charge.

They are even fucking idiots at making business. A Thanos on-going/tie-in dawning on Avengers 3
sounds great for both casuals and non-casuals alike.

I honestly think Marvel made the better choice with Cates

Well, he's not wrong there.

It finally bit them in the ass though.

They should kick Brevoort off.

I haven't enjoyed any of his Thanos OGNs, but that's still pretty shitty.

It's been one issue, and it wasn't even that good, just less boring than Lemire's.

I said earlier and now firmly suspect that Thane and all this shows someone in Marvel wanted or knows they need a Thanos and a Starlin, they just don't want Thanos and Starlin, so they're likely trying to hand over the elements of the old to the new. I speculate it could be a license thing if not just wanting a writer who is less experienced and therefore more flexible to their demands, but I dunno.

Fuck off, dumbass. But from DC's track record, Johns would surely do something as retarded as this. He loves his mediocre writers.

>DnA
>good

Marvel may have been shit, but this is a good decision by them. Old senile writers shit up the place too much. They keep writing the same character a thousand times without any new ideas. Guys like Starlin, Len Wein(RIP though), Levitz and Wolfman, or anybody not named Neal Adams, should've hung up their boots a long time back.

This. He even deparated the issue from to Marvel itself. Class act

>Old senile writers shit up the place too much. They keep writing the same character a thousand times without any new ideas.
Marvel and DC are doing just that anyway with their new writers.
Before you bring up the "new" characters made, most are made from and written with derivative thinking. Shit, at least the "old senile writers" have a leg up in that their ideas were once new.
No, not Thanos. We all know where the idea for Thanos came from, you wouldn't be bringing up anything new by mentioning that. Then again given the theme that'd be par for the course.

this post shits up the place.

The ongoing is still going. Starlin's OGNs that would make terrible tie-ins to attract casuals are not. Which isn't a knock on his work, it's just that his stuff is too dense and trippy to hook casual readers.

>similar

It's going to be Thanos wins but with Warlock instead of cosmic ghost rider isn't it?

Speaking as someone who was on the receiving end of shit behaviour and did the same thing Starlin did, that ended up burning me because the shitty person cried foul about me not associating with them. Then they started spreading rumours about me. Sometimes you just can't win.

Starlin could do D.C if he wanted to, but not if he bite the hand of editorial too much

They made that stuff eons ago. Now they produce nothing but shit. They also get top priority at the companies. Nobody asked for another Raven mini by Wolfman. Paul Levitz got 18 issues on his shitty Dr Fate book and wasted two of the best artists.
>Ideas were once new
There's nothing new in copying from French comics and Kirby.

Going to another company would probably be the best thing for him, yeah.

Disagree. They butchered and blasphemed a huge chunk of the Legion yes, but Brainy was one of the few that DnA DIDN'T irrevocably fuck up

Part of the issue is that for vanity projects like that, getting the old creators back is a way to guarantee sales by getting the die-hards/old school fans to buy it.

No one trusts/wants a Jason Aaron Thanos book where he has Thanos as an edgelord evil-evil shit. Or a Hickman/Bendis mega-event where Thanos acts like a pod person, completely opposite from what everyone expects of him or revising god-awful plot points no one liked and were glad when they were debunked (like Thanos having kids).

People will buy a Starlin Thanos book, even a graphic novel, because it's Starlin and they trust him to write a good version of Thanos people want to read. Similarly, since Legion has been brought up, why Levitz was given a lengthy run on the book recently and why a lot of people want him to write the Legion when they come back. Putting an unknown on the book (or a Bendis who doesn't give a shit and will rape the characters to fit HIS vision of the characters, because fuck you that's why), is a potential sales nightmare and even if sales are good, as seen with Bendis and Avengers, any sales gains will be a pyrrich victory at best. You'll have broken the readership base and the old fans? They will make a point to never let DC remember how pissed off they are and will poison the well on the new writer's run.

Giving the book to Levitz basically ensures you have a steady readership, with a writer the fanbase knows and trusts to not salt the earth and will provide reliable, if not consistant stewardship of the characters/franchise.

Amen... DC's going to have to have a Crisis on Infinite Earth level retcon after Bendis gets done shitting all over their universe. I wonder who he's going to pick as his DC waifu and drag around from book to book even if it doesn't make any damn sense.

It'll either be Batwoman (he'll turn her straight) or Harley Quinn (he'll turn her good). He might pick someone and make her secretly Jewish all along. Just saying... if you see Starfire spinning a dreidel, just know we tried to warn you.

Gotta get rid of him, Thanos is a big important corporate character now. You gotta play by the corporate rules or don't play at all.

The current environment is like the exact polar opposite of the one in the 70's that gave guys like Starlin, Gerber, and Englehart room to be as creative as possible.

Wait what happened? Is the new Starlin book not coming out?

It was dor the marketing/merch.
Marvel believes young Spidey is the only one that will ever sell, so MJ is toy/spinoff poison.

Bring back Jim Shooter

Fun fact: A lot of late 90's stories Brevoort wrote were co-written with a guy named Mike Kanterovich
The only other notable thing Kanterovich did was (prior to his Marvel stint) was co-writing most of Ken Penders' earliest stories. Hell, Mike is the reason why Ken got the job on the book

Shooter would get eaten alive by Perlmutter

Shoulda specified "on the Archie Sonic comic"

Going to take a wild guess one what the plot of both books was. Thanos tries to impress his waifu death by doing something horrifying.

It used to be on Marvel's site but after site revamps they took it off. Someone pasted it onto this thread:

desuarchive.org/co/thread/86686154

This argument would mean something if it weren't for the fact that even Starlin's worst is better than most of Marvel's output today.

Not to excuse Brevoort, he should really fucking know better, but I think part of it is that he's responsible for too much shit so he hands a lot of it off to assistant editors and doesn't do a good job of supervising them.

>Giving the book to Levitz basically ensures you have a steady readership, with a writer the fanbase knows and trusts to not salt the earth and will provide reliable, if not consistant stewardship of the characters/franchise.

I'm guessing you don't remember the finale co-written by Keith "salting the earth" Giffen.

>Turn Batwoman straight
>Implying it wouldn't make her a better character