ITT: Characters with good, but underused, Rogues Galleries

I'll start. Stark has everything from mooks, to corporate enemies, to dragons and magicians to planetary-level threats. And yet all we get is the same old recycled "Tony is his own worst enemy" story, again and again...

Because Diana is the Iron Man of DC she is in the same situation as Iron Man, her Rogue Gallery has great potential but noneone uses it.

Can you explain what you mean when you say shes the Iron Man of DC?

One of the main problems with Tony's Rogues Gallery is that they're just names, not characters. How many Crimson Dynamos, Firebrands, Whiplashes, Spy-Masters and Titanium Men have there been? Writers don't want to develop them, they just use a recognizable identity with no regard to the person inside the suit.

Iron Man's villains are a fucking gold mine. Just combine them with their Armored Adventures versions and put someone like Ewing on as writer and you got a fun run.

Pic related because Aaron can't give a shit about Thor's other villains.

>13 Crimson Dynamos
>4 Firebrands
>5 Whiplashes
>2 Titanium Men
>3 Spymasters
>2 Melters
>2 Maulers
>2 Blizzards

A lot of them can be reworked to be great tho. A whole lot of untapped potential here.

>Tony's so fucking emotionally dead he doesn't care about his villains
>he just blows them up and when they come back he assumes it's the same guy saved through magic or super-science
>he literally never notices it's another person

I think he means that he's a low-tier A-Lister that Marvel tries to prop up as being a flagship character. Like how DC keeps propping up the 'trinity' of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman, but WW's historically been nowhere near either of them in terms of popularity until recently.

Nah, what he's saying is that WW, like IM, is well known, but writers these days don't care about their villains or lore, so they just recycle the best-of stories from the past and call it a day. This leads to "oh yeah, everybody knows Tony/Diana" but pick up a book, and there'd be no indication they have a rounded supporting cast, villains, or have been characters for more than half a decade.

Nah not all those guys are dead. Firebrand I is doing great as a supervillain talent scout. Melter II is a mutant who has the ability to melt flesh but wants to be a hero. Blizzard II is friends with She-Hulk and is an inhuman with electric powers now. Titanium Man I came back. Crimson Dynamo XIII is a russian military lady turned mercenary. And Mauler II retired. He has more villains ofc. But i'm only mentioning the ones that have lotsa people sharing the identity.

Yeah I know, he even gave Blizzard's brother a job when he LARPed as him. It's just that compared to others, he doesn't have that personal connection with his villains. If they die, eh, big deal.

That's true. It makes me sad how all of his villains could work if a writer just bothered. The only people Tony had some sort of emotional connection would be Madame Masque, Hammer, both Stanes and The Mandarin.

Yeah, it's pretty weird how nobody is willing to put in the work when it's so easy to make them well-rounded threats. Controller is basically an Earth-Bound Darkseid. Fin Fang Foom works as the Draon to Tony's Iron Knight and harkens back to his Arthurian obsession. Firepower is the US Millitary trying to take his stuff. Firebrand is the extreme communist. Ghost is the well-meaning anti-corporate. The Hammers are the unhinged capitalists. Masque is the obsessed psycho. Zeke is Tony, but evil. And then you have folks like Spymaster, Midas, Whiplash, tons of croonies you can use to form a Rogues ala Flash, Ultimo and its cosmic horror, and even shared villains like MODOK or ROXXON.

It's really fucking weird how nobody does anything.

I hate when people shit on his rogues or his comic, considering the Invincible run spanning from the 70s and 80s was great. It combined a corporate espionage element to the superhero one, and had some enjoyable villains like Obadiah Stane, Justin Hammer, Madame Masque, and Living Laser.

Eh, I'd argue they have enough character. Vanko deflected early on and became an Iron Man ally. Folks like Masque always had a personal connection with Tony. Granted, he's less close to his Rogues than say Batman or Spider-Man, but there's foundation to build upon. Problem is, nobody wants to.

>Iron Man's villains are a fucking gold mine.
Exactly. Give them a good makeover like AA, update them a bit, and they're good to go. Hell, he even has his own Darkseid, Magneto, Doom, Luthor, yet nobody develops them.

To be fair to Crimson Dynamo, the first two died in a big connected story. The second one was mostly there for Anton Vanko to have a redemption arc.

Well, Sup Forums really doesn't read comics, so they just think of Stane, the evil businessman, Mandarin the joke and Hammer the other evil businessman.

The easiest solution would be to do self-contained issues with the villains with the cooler powers and designs then wrap it up with an arc of Tony fighting a bigger threat.

Personally I'd go with Blizzard II, then Firebrand IV, then Unicorn, then Whiplash IV, then finish up with Ezekiel for an arc. Just adapt and rewrite Rise of Technovore and have Zeke be why the villains are more threatening now.

Me, I'd break them down in brackets. Some go in a Rogues-like team (which was already a thing in IM with Beetle and the like being gathered by Hammer). Some are used as low-tier solo antagonists (Ghost, Mentallo, Spymaster). Some are purely corporate threats (Hammer, ROXXON, OsCorp). Some go to mid/high solo threats (Graviton, MODOK, Mandarin, Doom, Controller) and others are built-up as ultra-big end-bosses (Fin Fang Foom, Ultimo). That way you can rotate them, do isolated arcs, sprinkle in some no-villains stories, and then pull together loose ends for the bigger event-arcs.

One of my main complaints about Bendis' run is that he's done NOTHING with Iron Man's rogues gallery.
The only traditional Iron Man villain he's used is Madame Masque. After that, he used some Japanese Inhuman OC, Mephisto pretending to be the Maker, Will O' the Wisp, Lucia Von Bardas, the Hood and his gang. And some issues don't even have any villains at all, because Bendis just loves issues of just characters talking and doing jackshit.

>Bendis has done nothing
FTFY. Bendis did literally nothing with Iron Man apart from shilling his Daughterfu and completely destroying his already damaged supporting cast.

I just want more thematic villains, y'know what I mean? Main reason I'd make Zeke the new nemesis since he does the transhumanism angle. I'd keep the Mandarin for later. Use him the same way MCU did in that one short. Shadowy villain from behind the scenes and make him like... imperialist chinafag to not offend the chinese.

Alright Sup Forums, give me your best pitches to rework Iron Man's rogues gallery.

Yeah, I wouldn't object to that. We need IM villains who are more than guys in suits. Weird thing is, most wre created with a certain philosophy and ideology, it's just that nobody uses that anymore. Zeke could represent the ultra-materialisic transhumanism that Stark is afraid of becoming. They even touched on that in that story where Doom & Tony travel to the future, and Future Doom is a technically a robot, which past/current Doom sees as a weakness. For a man who turns himself into a machine isn't fit to lead mankind. Doom approaches it from a magic angle, but Tony doesn't really consider machines people either. Or cares that much about aliens as well. I mean, he created a childlike AI and then abandoned it in a hard-drive or whatever. He sees them as creations and nothing more.

Give me some time.

Okay, so

>Grey Gargoyle
Performer Artist with ridiculous plans who does everything for ART! Can go from goofy and hammy to edgelord, trying to discover new artistic waves. In summary a grandiose 'actor' whose schemes take him all over the world and are ridiculous, over the top and comic book-y, with the ocassional gore stuff.

>Titanium Man & The Winter Guard
Frenemies and officialy sanctioned by Russia. No ties to Communism or whatever, just Russia's super-heroes, who are at odds with Stark over juristiction lines or whatnot. No bad blood between them, merely bureocracy.

>Ultimo
Cosmic Horror akin to Gah Lak Tus. Make him unexplainable, ancient, incomprehensible. He really should be an event villain, with Tony dealing with smaller "avatars" or probes of him.

>Fin Fang Foom
Bring back the Adi Granov redesign, and have him be an alien dragon conqueror. Really, you don't need more than that. He's a super-intelligent alien dragon! Just play up the Arthurian similarities.

>Mandarin
Guy in the shadows who lives merely to conquer. He enjoys the glory of battle, the greatness of strife, stuff like that. He plans, schemes and then strikes out in the open. Make him kinda like the Illusive Man.

>Zeke Stane
The Ultra-Transhuman who goes full-Maker and creates a country/city full of Math-Autists devoid of any culture or identity, all in the name of "progress".

>Ghost
As is, really. He's a well-meaning anarchist whose hate for corporations blind him to the goods of proper Capitalism. He mostly goes after Monopolies, and sometimes Stark aids from the shadows, but only so that he can pick up the scraps.

>Crimson Dynamo
Not Vanko. A Rogue Agent who wants to brign back Communism no matter the cost. A crazy, unhinged "freedom fighter" who fights only for his "dream",

>Controller
Just make him a less powerful Darkseid. He wants obedience and control over humanity first, and later all living things. Have him be the guy in the shadows mostly.

Tony’s greatest nemesis: The Partridge in a Pear Tree.

>Crimson Dynamo XIII
>XIII
Surely I'll be the Crimson Dynamo to defeat Stark! Maybe at least change the color or something? Or is called Crimson due to all the people who bled in them?

I like some of these but not all of them. I'll get back to you tho user. Give me some time. In the meantime, other anons can give reasons why they think Iron Man's runs don't do well.

Aight, I'm this user.

So I'll take a few posts to explain what I like and don't like about this.

So Grey Gargoyle I like. I have no problem with him and I like your take on the character.

So Titanium Man & the Winter Guard hrmm, I'm not really feeling it for that one because you just Iron Man's encounters with Dmitri Bukharin, the fifth Crimson Dynamo.

Ultimo I love but you need a dope ass redesign and a lot of variety. He fills the same niche as Ultron but there's not enough overlap now because Pymtron exists so that's fine.

By Adi Granov you mean this one, user? But yeah I agree with you. Fin Fang Foom needs little to no improvements he's fine just the way he is.

>Zeke Stane
>The Ultra-Transhuman who goes full-Maker and creates a country/city full of Math-Autists devoid of any culture or identity, all in the name of "progress".
Nah, I liked him more as Fraction intended: "Zeke is a post-national business man and kind of an open source ideological terrorist, he has absolutely no loyalty to any sort of law, creed, or credo. He doesn’t want to beat Tony Stark, he wants to make him obsolete. Windows wants to be on every computer desktop in the world, but Linux and Stane want to destroy the desktop. He’s the open source to Stark’s closed source oppressiveness. He has no headquarters, no base, and no bank account. He’s a true ghost in the machine; completely off the grid, flexible, and mobile. That absolutely flies in the face of Tony’s received business wisdom and in the way business is done. There are banks and lawyers and you have facilities and testing. Stane is a much more different animal. He’s a much smarter, more mobile, and much quicker to respond and evolved futurist."

I'm so pissed that they stole Ghost for Ant-Man and the Wasp, but I guess that's what you have to do if you're launching a franchise where the character has no fucking rogues of their own. Madam Masque was wasted on Agent Carter as well.

The villains I wan to see in Iron Man movies are:

Ghost
Madame Masque
Fin Fang Foom
Mandarin (non-Trevor version, though I'm not hating on IM3)

Other than that I think he has shit villains.

Oh shit, I forgot about the Livin Laser. He's cool, add him to this list

I love The Illusive Mandarin but the only problem I have with is the motivation.

>glory of battle
>greatness of strife
See this is fine but the guy is a blue blood on both his parents' sides. Mongolian AND British nobility. I'd play up the conqueror and imperialist sides to make him less generic than all the other conquerors we have in comics

Ghost is the villain in Ant-Man and Wasp.

He knows that, he even wrote it as his first sentence in his post.

Zeke.
Now Zeke i think should be bigger because he's more recent so people might know him already. Then there's the whole "son of Obadiah" and all.

Honestly tho, Zeke needs to be reworked hard. The guy DOES have potential but he needs a lot more work to fit as the new Iron Monger.

I agree with him going full Maker but I disagree with him recreating the Dome. What I would do with him would be have him play the Ultra-Transhumanism to the extreme.

So in-story, Mr Fantastic once said that Zeke was an imitative genius and not an innovative one. In that story, Reed said that he was like the guy who invented the sandwich. Makes existing things and then improve them. That's a retarded analogy but we see that Zeke keeps improving Stark-tech without making his own.

What I would do is play to that but with a twist. Have him find Technovore and have him combine that with Extremis into his central nervous system and the nanotech would allow him to continually keep up with Tony's upgrades. I know I know sounds like Bleeding Edge but still tho, Technovore was alive so we can have Technovore learn from Zeke and Zeke learn from Technovore.

And instead of the Dome, I'd have Zeke compare himself to an inevitability and have his master plot would be ushering the Technological Singularity

Ghost is Ghost and Ghost is great.

Valentin Shatalov was the sixth Crimson Dynamo and he is what you described albeit trying to reinstate Stalinism. I'd rather someone work with Crimson Dynamo XIII for something new.

>Controller
The thing about Controller that everyone forgets is that he drains powers proportional to people he controls. The Controller can potentially be incredibly strong and in one instance I think he even fought Thor head-on? And yes he can theoretically drain superpowers too i think. This makes him a lot more powerful than people think but consolidating all those disks would take a while. Lots of buildup needed for an arc with him really.

GHOST BLOWJOB WOO WOO WOO

Controller CAN reach this level.

Karla, no. Ghost is not for sexual.

>tfw movie Ghost will end up being my waifu, because she is literally just a female version of Ghost
... I don't know how to feel about that.

I guess you're saying that both Diana/Tony are rather B-list in their comic continuity but have found themselves thrust into primacy within the movie universes.

True enough. In all fairness, Diana is only currently highlighting the DC movieverse because Snyder couldn't make a decent movie with either Supes or Bats. Bats esp has a proven box office track record clearly showing its his handling not his concept at fault for BvS/JL. Someone else is going to be given the reins of a Batman movie and its going to make a billion dollars - Diana's limelight is going to prove short-lived.

Tony was the clear breakthrough star of the MCU and it wasn't a statistical blip. Audiences loved him, they never quite responded as well to Thor or Cap. Tony *is* the lead in the MCU, Diana is *currently* the lead but it wont last.

As for Rogues... Diana's are awful and there is little that could be done to salvage them. There are really only 2 that have any resonance, Cheetah and Giganta, the rest will never catch on. Tony actually has both a huge gallery that are salvagable, too bad the movies have gone out of their way to make them *worse* than the comics. Mandarin was such a wasted opportunity in particular but I'd like to see the small army of tech-carrying goons (largely financed by Roxxon) gain some notoriety. Really, I could easily see Tony's Rogues gaining the same popularity as Barry's Rogues, they're surprisingly similar in multiple ways

The problem with this though is the fact that Zeke DOES have a credo. It's just "change" and not much else. Fraction wanted to be clever with his Iron Man run but he crippled himself with over-exaggerating the repulsor tech and not being smart enough to actually improve the new characters he established.

lolwut

Reading comprehension fail.

...

They should make Ghost join Anti-Fa. He then realizes that they're really just a corporate entity funded by globalist terrorists trying to subvert American discourse. He then goes full Hero and destroys Anti-fa and him and stark become buddies and fight communism together.

Nah, your are forgetting he has paranoid schizophrenia. He will care less about Anti-Fa, he will probably go against corrupt corporation like HSBC. His mindset is very Punisher-like. (Reminds me, Ghost and Punisher would make a good pair, altough Punisher would hate Ghost)
Tony brings the worst out of him, the Thunderbolts bring out his best.

>As for Rogues... Diana's are awful
Every drooling retard who says this never gives any coherent explanation. Try reading a book for once in your life instead of basing your opinions on memes and whatever Sup Forums jerks off to.

>delicious brown industrial terrorist
... Yep, still don't know how to feel about that.

>it's Dutch from Killjoys

bueno.png

>... Yep, still don't know how to feel about that.
Embrace it user.

>Every drooling retard who says this never gives any coherent explanation. Try reading a book for once in your life instead of basing your opinions on memes and whatever Sup Forums jerks off to.
Also I agree with you on this. Diana's modern villains are a bit boring (Jason). Her older ones are pretty much fine tho.

bump

I really loved Ezekial Stane in the Technovore anime movie and I wouldn't mind seeing the Griffith-like personality he showed in the movie be used again.

It's what I meant by here, ,

Just adapt that and tweak it. It'd make a perfect arch-enemy.

Bump

Does Aquaman have a good rogue gallery? I can only think of two enemies: Black Manta and Ocean Master - I think Arthur does not battle with super-villains that often, he mostly to deal with politics and monsters. (If there is a difference)

I would also heavily reference William Blake for every Zeke arc. The Tyger and Jerusalem especially. Also Auguries of Innocence.

The problem with Iron Man's rogue's gallery is that most of them are just people in wannabe armored suits. It will get old fast (esp. in the movies) to have a wannabe armored villains challenge Iron Man (the king of armored tech heroes) in every movie. You need to have really distinctive villains. Of which Iron Man has very few that aren't campy.

Where is your coherent explanation of how/why Diana's rogues *are* excellent?

This is a casual discussion board. I'm not posting a thesis here. If anything, the burden of proof is on you.

But I'll give you this - Diana has been around 80 years, has appeared in tv shows, cartoons, movies, she is probably in the Top 5 superheroes granted such wide media exposure, definitely in the Top 10... and what impact has her villains had? Can you name a single villain from her 70s tv show? You might, I might... but you'll be hard-pressed to find anyone but diehard fans able dredge up a reference. Meanwhile, the villains from the 60s batman show are still going strong. That crap villains from the bat-mythos never elevated despite exposure (like King Tut and Egghead) is even better proof that the ones that did make an impact.

Good writers, some great writers, have tried to salvage Diana's rogues. Nothing has stuck because there is so little to work with.

You've an uphill battle here because reality simply disagrees with you. You're wanting to argue that her rogues aren't awful but they demonstrably, objectively are. Perhaps a triple-A writer could turn that around at some future point but its been tried and its failed before.

In the end you're part of the problem because you refuse to acknowledge the problem exists. Things wont improve with fans sticking their fingers in their ears going la-la-la.

I think the meme of Diana's rogues allegedly sucking is a combination of several factors.

1. Fact is, most writers just don't use them that much, part of which is due to lack of knowledge of the character herself, and the obnoxious preconceived notions about her carrying over to her rogues.

2. Most of them have fuck all to do with Greek myth, which many have become convinced is the end all be all of WW. People seem to have forgotten, willingly or otherwise, that WW is a superhero franchise. Why is Wonder Woman fighting a cyborg crime boss? Because fuck you, this is a cape book.

3. A straight up double standard, see, Superman and Batman are allowed to have wacky comic book super villains, but Wondy isn't for some reason(probably due to the Greek myth autism). No, seriously, many times, I've seen people say that the Wonder Rogues are ridiculous, when really, they're about on the same goofiness level as any given collection of super villains.

Quite a few can be reworked to have more interesting ideologies rather than just appealing to GRRRR DRRRTY COMMIE REEEEEEE. Also the armour slant can also be worked on by improving the designs and actually working real world stuff into the story. The problem with Tony is the fact that the guy always upgrades himself and leaves his rogues in the dust. Then the writers who come on board can't be half arsed to actually do something interesting with them.

The only other ones I kind think of are Siren who is basically just Mera's villain and the Scavenger.

See

Are you talking comics, or the movies? Because in the movies, we don't need another armored bad guy. We've already had 2 for the first two Iron Man movies.

>Can you name a single villain from her 70s tv show?
None of her rogues were in the 70s tv show, dumbass. With the exception of Paula von Gunther, but she wasn't recurring.

>burden of proof
You're the one who made the initial assertion that the Wonder Rogues are "awful", and your only argument so far is that they haven't been featured in a tv show. You go ahead and explain to me why you think these are bad characters, and I'll tell you why you're full of shit.

Comics. The movies really don't need another bad guy in armour.

What a blur of generic villains. There's only maybe 2 in the entire picture that could work with movie Iron Man. The yellow Tron girl in the back, and the massive big dude in the back (Firepower). But they couldn't carry the movie solo. Probably supporting roles.

Tron Chick is basically Firebrand 4 and has no personality outside of hired muscle and Firepower is the big guy at the back. His plot is too similar to Iron Man 2 to be made into a movie anyway.

iron man suits should look more mechanical. Iron Man 1 and 2 had the right idea. I hate the organic look of the new suits avengers 2 and civil war. Now in avengers 3 it looks even more organic.

That’s just a fraction of his rogues though. And to be fair, in all of Fraction’s run, these guys never appeared, and showed up as “hired muscle” in the page you see, playing a minimal role in the end of the run.

>There are really only 2 that have any resonance, Cheetah and Giganta
Well there's Hades. That's like the one most casuals know other than Cheetah because either they know "Diana's involved with Greek gods" or they saw that one episode of JL

i feel that Tony's rogues shouldn't be compared to The Rogues. Sure quite a few of them have similarities;

Heatwave = Firebrand
Captain Cold = Blizzard
Mirror Master = Living Laser

But honestly tho? The heroes power sets differ too much and the tone of their books are much too different to have Tony's Rogues be like The Rogues.

It's important for them to establish their own identity and stories so that shit like doesn't happen to the point it becomes even more ridiculous.

Tony's rogues need to be able to catch up to Tony's superior tech by using their own wits and need tk challenge him in ways tailored to him.

Those are awful redesigns.

*just described
Fml

Any user got mechanical eldritch horror designs lying around?

After the 6th Dynamo, most of them were just literal whos with next to no characterisations.

I hate the fact that this meme is mostly true.

Would ghost really be interested in arguably the biggest slut in the Marvel universe?

Batman. No really, think about it. How often does Penguin, Mad Hatter, Killer Croc, Killer Moth, Clayface, Firefly, and so on get decent spotlight outside of jobbing hired muscle or cameo? Its practically always a Joker plot or a new threat

One Hulk issue showed that there's Crimson Dynamo knock off armours being sold on the black market. There's probably more than 50 Dynamos at this point. One stupid fuck even thought that wearing it allowed him to take on Daredevil and Punisher at the same time.

He's interested in FRIDAY at least.

...

But user, that's not She-Hulk

I mean to be fair, I don't think Superman or Batman have anyone like pic related. You'll have your wacky silver age villains and whatnot, but nobody is really on the level of Egg Fu. Also his edgy nu52 redesign is hilarious.

Moonstone is a WAY bigger slut than She-Hulk. Her actual 'number' may be lower (I'd have to check) but that scene with her and Bullseye in Dark Avengers is what makes me give her the top spot. And that was AFTER she not only fucked Noh-Varr and took his H-Card, but scared him off the team as well.

Bump

I'm actually going to go out on a limb here and say that a lot of Daredevil's enemies go unused. I haven't bothered with Soule's run, so I'm a bit out of the loop, but I can't remember the last time Ammo, Bullet, Bushwacker, Matador, or the Owl got used past 2005. Hell, the Owl and Bullet were more like plot devices the last time I remember them being used anyway.
I'm not going to sit here and say that all of the DD-specific villains have the same punch to them as Kingpin, Bullseye, the Hand, and Typhoid Mary, but those folks lose their punch by being constantly used when you can throw in someone who hasn't been used in a while.

Alright, thanks! I went back and forth between crazy artist and gentleman thief, but disastrous and unhinged performer sounds more fun.

Well, something does have to stick, and Crimson Dynamo's too Soviet to work as a National Hero, so I went with TM.

It honestly boggles my mind how nobody's done it yet. You'd think that after Mass Effect, we'd see more of these villains. But really, I imagine him kinda like the Space Jockey from Alien (no, the Engineers don't count).

Yeah, that's the one. Fin's perfect as the Dragon to Tony's Knight.

Well sure, but there's only how far you can take it. What's his motive if he has no loyalty to anything?

I guess you could play up the nobillity aspects in the way he conducts his business. He could easily create his own "Cerberus" and really do the Illusive Man's bit. It's not like there's any other cape-villain doing it.

Yeah, that sounds pretty much perfect.

Fair enough.

Controller to me should be like in that Maria Hill story at a base level, and keep upping the ante until he reaches Ghost's a tough cookie, but really, he should be Elliot from Mr. Robot upped to the 11th degree.

>Typhoid Mary
She would be a great enemy to Moon Knight.

Stark needs some villains that aren't just corporate guys or tech-suits. Something like:

>Wesker from RE
Tony's expertise lies in tech, so having to deal with bio-villain would put him in a corner. Maybe tie that new person with Extremis for some sort of connectivity.

>some magical/occult thing
He hates magic and shits his pants about supernatural stuff, so give him a mix of both, to really push him to the limit. Maybe not something out of Hellboy or Conjuring or Japanese Horror, but more "mainstream".

Yes, Daredevil. It's always Kingpin, Bullseye and Elektra. Lot of good villains like Mr. Fear have shit back stories that don't let them develop as characters. Said introduced Jackal and Ikari. Grrat designs and cool powers, but totally underwhelming back stories. Double recently introduced Tenfingers, who nobody cares about, and Muse, who's not bad. Why has Daredevil never directly fought The Hood? Or Mr. Negative? They seem like obvious choices for great villains.

>The Hood
Shit, now that'd be a great Iron Man villain. He and Nefaria could engage in a world-wide gang war, with Lucio representing the old, romanticized Italian Mafia, and Parker being just a grunt with tons of power who thinks he's gangsta.

What was good about Muse? I really couldn't find anything to like about him.

>but more "mainstream"
Maybe something like Beetlejuice? More gothic than outright horror. Or I guess just throw him in Silent Hill.

He had a cool MO and a memorable look. He has potential, but he's nothing special ATM.

I see. His MO is precisely why I didn't like him. He felt like a police procedural villain of the week which I don't find very interesting.