What went wrong?

Why is this comic so universally hated by both critics and fans?

Other urls found in this thread:

community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?31351-DIY-COMIC-CREATOR-ROUNDTABLE-Spider-marriage-continuity-and-retcons&s=0286a640e49c8f9b0a4b7d9cdf6d94a9&p=904655&viewfull=1#post904655
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

Only shipperfags were mad
no one cares

For almost 8 fucking years day after day we have the same thread.

Fuck off already. Jesus.

Sorry. Newfag here. Why is this comic hated here?

because it's bad

Pretty much because it's the defining comic of "no character development can be permanent"

Killed Spider-Man's marriage in a retarded way. Spider-Man Pre OMD comics weren't anything groundbreaking, but they got really bad for a while afterwards and arguably never fully recovered

I repeat this FOR MILLION TIMES even though I know it's just to annoy.
I destroy all the development of Peter and Mary Jean. If they wanted to separate them there were much better ways, like just letting their identity be public, but Mary had to become a shield agent or shit like that.
That and that literally caused a hero to make a deal with satan.

This, it was to character development what Return of Superman was to death in comics

That is an excellent comparison.

isn't this the comic where peter parker sells his marriage and unborn child to satan so his elderly aunt would survive a completely normal death?

>undo one of the longest lasting and most popular marriages of all time
>by having the hero and his wife sell it to the fucking devil
>the devil literally gets what he wants and leaves with no repercussions
>stan lee defends omd and adapts it for his newspaper comics
>he later undoes it due to fan backlash

>the devil literally gets what he wants and leaves with no repercussions
Seems normal to me

Such is life...

Imagine this, Say that you work your entire life for everything; Pay off all your loans, get married, see your kids go off to college and have them be successful with their own families. Now imagine if all of that was taken away in an hour after you retire. All of your kids and their kids die in a horrible car crash to your retirement party, your wife dies of cancer an hour later, and you have to go into debt just to pay for their funerals. That is the equivalent of OMD

Peter willing sold his marriage to devil for his old aunt's life despite the fact Peter had met Aunt May's spirit and she said that "she totally fine don't blame yourself and I'm going to be with Ben etc..."

Also it Peter even more a man-child

Because the premise was moronic. There was literally no reason to retcon away Spider-Man's marriage other than Joe Quesada being a fucking hack who wanted to revert everything back to what it'd been like when he was a kid reading the comic.

And the execution was even worse, having the so-called hero make a literal deal with the devil in order to save Aunt May, who should've stayed dead when they faked killing her of in 1995 anyway, and somehow Mephisto was the only person capable of saving her from a simple gunshot wound, because reasons.

Aunt May should've been long dead by that point anyway. The "LOL it was actually an imposter who maintained character even on her deathbed" retcon after they killed her off in 1995 but then pussied out of it was fucking retarded.

To be fair Marvel has wanted to get rid of the marriage for decades. Clone Saga was all about that. And it's not even the marriage itself, they just want a young and relatable Spider-Man. That's why it's a deal with the devil and not a divorce. A divorce makes Peter still seem old. Also Peter loses his stable job as a teacher.

>Why is this comic so universally hated by both critics and fans?
Because it's bad.

The premise could work but the idea of Peter willing sold his marriage for Aunt May is really idiotic part. The only thing that this could work if MJ the one being shot and Peter have to sold his marriage to keep MJ alive.

>the only way to save mj is to deny her a life with her one true love

It's like one of those bittersweet things. She lives but she loses out on a life she wanted.

That DOES sound a lot better. I mean, I wouldn't have liked it much because what I saw of them together was actually pretty heartwarming (Back in Black, during Civil War, etc), but it would at least have made sense.

>using "shipperfag"
Not a valid argument, try again

That's not a good comparison, Max Landis.

And it's been fucking retarded every time they've tried to do that shit. The idea that Peter can't be "relatable" unless he's a teenage loser just a matter of them not actually understanding the character's appeal. And making him never have character development because it'll always be reverted or outright retconned does not make him more relatable.

Because not only does it single handily do what “The Death of Superman” and make the idea of a stable marriage in comics a absolute joke. It also manages to completely ignore the aesop that Spider-Man is known for: With Great Powet Comes Great Responsibility.

As instead of taking responsibility for his actions, Peter dodges it by making a deal with Satan and guilt-tripping his wife into it. Rewriting history just to save the life of a single person who, in addition to wanting to die anyways and was telling you to let go, and is, let's face it, likely to die of old age in a few years anyway is simply asinine. The message then becomes "the ends justify the means", and that instead of learning how to cope with loss and move on with your life, you should hold on to what you have and never let go, even if the cost of doing so might be too high; for you and for others.

>you should hold on... and never let go, even if it cost of doing so might be too high; for you and for others

Just like Quesadilla intended.

> What went wrong?

Marvel

>Just like what's he intended
Fuck that mexican food!

The funny thing is, Ben was poor moneywise but he was a far more competent Spider-Man than the one we saw in Brand New Day.

My feeling is that most of the writers on BND (the only exception I can think of is Stern) prioritized comedy and Parker Luck over character because that was what people thought Spider-Man should be. I can never understand why there were some people who were bitching about Tom DeFalco's Spider-Man while praising BND. DeFalco has problems with his writing but I never felt like his Spider-Man was a complete loser.

Is Joe Quasada I good person, like during interviews or meeting fans is he decent?

or is he just adamant that this comic isnt complete dogshit?

>Is Joe Quasada I good person, like during interviews or meeting fans is he decent?

>or is he just adamant that this comic isnt complete dogshit?

He's usually good at PR, so it's hard to say. Maybe it's even both. If you compare his tweets dealing with the recent Marvel cancellations with how Slott, Brevoort, Alonso, Waid, and Spencer handled things on Twitter you can really see the difference. He relied too much on taking shots at DC, though.

Here it is. That's why I can't stand Slott's run. That's the fucking problem with almost everything post-BND.
No one was writing any of those characters as actual characters. Peter is an ass-clown and a butt of all jokes, his supporting cast may as well not have any personality, the villains are nothing more than moustache-twirling monologuing retards with no distinct personalities (and before some of you fags go "hurr it was always like that". fuck off. In Stern's run, for instance, you can clearly differentiate between someone like Vulture, Kingpin and Hobgoblin. In Slott's shit Spider-Queen, Norman Osborn, Alistair Smythe, etc may as well be the same dull character)
Spider-Man is a character-driven franchise so it's annoying when there's not much actual characterization.

>Peter is an ass-clown and a butt of all jokes,

The worst part of it is, Slott isn't the only one guilty of this. I know that sometimes in the Stan Lee run, Spider-Man gets into some humiliating situations. But post-OMD, it's like they fucking dial it up to 11. There was that one person on CBR who pointed out that Waid went overboard during that last BND arc to show how screwed up Peter's life was. And offhand I remembered Jason Aaron writing a scene in what, Wolverine? where the Avengers deliberately forget to tell Spider-Man they have a party for Wolverine somewhere else. It just made the Avengers come off like complete assholes.

I mean a few incidents is fine spread out, but when you have too many of them then it starts sticking out, badly. The kind of comedy they do might work for teen Spider-Man, but even then up to a point.

Found that CBR thing:

community.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?31351-DIY-COMIC-CREATOR-ROUNDTABLE-Spider-marriage-continuity-and-retcons&s=0286a640e49c8f9b0a4b7d9cdf6d94a9&p=904655&viewfull=1#post904655

>there's another good example in ASM #642, the opening to the Origin of the Species BND finale. There's a good half dozen pages of "look at how crappy it is to be Peter Parker" strung along like a series of pitiful firecrackers. He has to sell his camera cuz he's broke, but the vendor doesn't care and short changes him. He has to beg money off of Betty Brant. He tries to call Carlie and tell her he's late, but he's got no minutes of course, the phone screechs in his ear about how broke he is. He walks home and sees everybody wearing his shirts, so he runs upstairs and his roommate Michelle is selling all his clothes for rent(because he's a broke loser remember). Only shirt left is an ugly sweater that everybody hated, and its already 100+ degrees outside. He runs down the street in the ugly sweater, people shouting "MY EYES!" because how ugly/stupid/loserish Peter Parker is right now, gets to the Coffee Bean with Carlie who's sitting there with MJ and Harry. They all share embarassing stories about Peter, like Aunt May ironing his tighty whities, laughing as Peter sits there sweating lookin' awful.

>Like...I'm not making this up. This is actually how Waid constructed this issue. This is how Mark Waid sees Peter Parker, despite IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM has he ever been this much of a pitiful awful loser that the entire world shits on, not even in the cruel Lee/Ditko issues. Its insane.

A decrepit old woman was kept chugging along at the expense of basically turning MJ into the town bicycle.

Also, Brevoort's Spider-Manifesto from the late 2000's is hilarious to read in light of the shitshow that the Spider-Man comics and other Marvel comics (even things that Brevoort edited, like Civil War II, Secret Empire) have been.

...

...

...

It's a gigantic "fuck you" to decades worth of development.

>Peter's marriage
>His alteration of jobs
>The death and introduction of various characters, such as Harry (one of the best comic deaths ever)
>Peter's evolution from an awkward teen to a grown man

>Hurr Mephisto

It was a slap in the face for any Spider-Man fans, and it never recovered. I honestly blame Civil War in that it planted the seeds for that to happen.

Fuck off Quesadilla.

There are actually things in here that I don't disagree with (like sure, it is supposed to be about Peter Parker is Spider-Man). And there are also things that are a load of bullshit (like how "Spider-Man doesn't grow up") But it is weird to realize how a lot of this was thrown out or claimed to have been thrown out.

When One More Day came out, he did a Q&A video where he basically told people who didn't like it to go fuck themselves. Not to mention he allowed Civil War, the end of any chance of Marvel being good for decades, to happen. He also spent years starting the trend of "When in doubt, just shit on the other companies and ignore criticism."

Fuck Quesada. He built the shitship we've all been doomed to sail on.

"Somewhere along the line, we started to become afraid to humiliate our heroes for a laugh."

And then they overcompensated for that leading to ineffective heroes and villains, and over-the-top murderous villains and huge bodycounts to overcompensate for that.

Friendly neighborhood reminder that Marvel's God visited Peter while Aunt May was dying to give him a pep talk. And the bastard still made a deal with the devil.

We're talking about an actual darkest timeline where the hero submits himself to the dark path.

In another world there's a Peter that refused Mephisto. He stays married to MJ and Slott never becomes a writer for ASM. The comics continue to sell in the 100k and Marvel revolves the entire universe around Peter. The MCU gets popular but ASM sells so well that Marvel doesn't chase after synergy. They never get duped into trying to win over casuals and mainstream and the SJW shitshow never occurs.

Even if you forget about the marriage getting erased at the end, the first 3 issues are still absolute garbage.
Remember the scene where Peter Parker meets his powerless overweight alternate self? He's a game designer nerd who is into escapist fiction like Atlas Shrugged and videogames because his life sucks, "something's missing" and things "aren't like they used to".

And keep in mind, this is all on JMS, Quesada had no input on these scenes, only the ending.

The part most people miss about the deal with Mephisto is that Peter didn't make that choice in a vacuum. God actually took time out of his busy schedule to personally talk to Peter (because he thought Peter was such a stand-up guy) about accepting his octogenarian aunt's death, implicitly telling him not to give an evil demon what the demon wanted in the process. Peter ignored him.

I should note that by "God" I don't mean Thor or Galactus. Nor do I mean a powerful supernatural comic book character standing in for God, like Mephisto stands in for Satan. I mean the literal Judeo-Christian omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God of Abrahamic lore who Peter has worshiped his entire life. Peter told him to screw off and then made a deal with the devil.

>There used to be a chance of being a hero, of being important...and it's just not the way it used to be
What the fuck does that even mean?

>You can't just pick up a gun and become a gunfighter
Yes you can, just join the Army. Or even a militia.

>Or go off and explore for a new world
Literally nothing is stopping you from going out and exploring the world. Just because everything has been charted doesn't mean there isn't anything new to see. Or hell, become a scientist.

>Or pull a sword out of a stone
You could never do that anyway. And even if that was never real, it would only work for people with the proper royal bloodline.

>Or rescue a damsel in distress
Become a firefighter or any kind of emergency rescue worker

Fuck this guy and fuck JMS.

It was a continuity reset that at that time (and really until 2015 Secret Wars) wasn't part of the Marvel formula, this by itself created a lot of controversy. However what they were changing up was also taboo, not only were they changing the public identity back to secret(which was only a 2 year thing by this point) Peter and MJ had been married for 21 years (1987-2008) that's a long time and at least 3 generations exposed to married Spider-man and for the most part it never hurt sales (that was the good old over saturation of the once successful clone saga) so it felt like you were watching jaded assholes chop up a major history in Spider-man lore for the personal reason on level of "not muh Spider-man", and since this is comics they had to go the extra mile and get Marvel comics most popular version of the devil to be the heart and center of undoing all this continuity, that a hero, an iconic know for "Great power equals great responsibility" would even hear out the devil's offer, would even debate it, to make matters more cringe this is at least the 4th time Petey has met Mephisto and has seen how sour his deals went so it's just off putting that Peter doesn't garb MJ web away and say fuck off. But even on the Devil's side this makes no sense, why care about their marriage? Why want that in trade of a old woman's life? When did he get in the business of wanting marriage licensees? And that user is the biggest critical issue with the is garbage event, it demands that all parties present forget everything they know about each other and act so out of character that it's painfully transparent the writers just want their way with a 30 year old icon.

The book starts with this line
>"Tune your ear to the frequency of despair, and cross-reference with the latitude and longitude of a heart in agony. Listen. Listen."

It goes downhill from there.

Just how degenerate is Peter?

What kind of a manchild ignores God after he comes down and advises you not to make a deal with the devil?

Even the idea from SM Requiem (peters radioactive blood poisons her and eventually kills her, with May dead, cancer MJ becomes the new May) would have worked, adding even more drama to Peters life, in a cruel, but continuity wise way. That wouldnt fix the main issue of Peter growing up, but nothing will fix that, except a reboot of 616.

I honestly don't get why she's still around. She's useful for spiderman origins but her tired and worn out ass has no point.

They didnt just break marriage through a deal with satan, the reason for it was may getting shot with a bullet in the stomach and NO ONE no magical, no technological no magical technology could save a dam bullet out of an old lady stomach.

And you know what's worse? The way Mephisto saved Aunt May was by changing time. In what way did he change time, you ask?

He made it so Strange healed Aunt May.

Everything

And this is why I will never understand Spider-Man's popularity.

It was so bad that even DC joked about it.

There are some good ideas here but the bad ideas are terrible and seem to be distorting the good ones.

Why is so hard to write off MJ?

There are a thousand ways to write off a love interest. But you choose the devil route?

>you will never get a magik/dr. strange cross over where they fight in hell, killing Mephisto
>you will never have a ASM issue where may walks down the street, above her a red bird is torn apart by other birds
>you will never have close up of may riddled with bullets body as the last page

Divorce or even killing her still keeps a ghost chain of the MJ marriage on him. They wanted the fat of the marriage cut off. and I can bet you Mephisto was used because it makes it way to sticky to undo, any other way of space magicking the marriage away would leave a back door for it to be reinstated but satan being the thread cutter leads to a whole can of worms being open to return the marriage. You are thinking on basic levels of getting the job done, this was a man that wanted it completely eradicated and bring Petey back to "the good old days" as he said.

His continued popularity?
Brand recognition.

His initial popularity?
Being a cunt kid who grows the fuck up.

>For almost 8 fucking years
The last issue of OMD came out 10 years ago, in late December of 2007

Tell that to Johnny Blaze's father.

>Missing the point this hard.

The entire start of OMD is the author screaming in futility about what Peter Parker is without his responsibility and integrity. It's a final, unyielding argument for why what's about to happen is not in any way, shape or form Peter Parker.

The iconic look of the suit is the major driving force, it stands out very well mix this with his skill set reflecting acrobatics and athletics and that along brings in readers/viewers. And it was less of him being a cunt kid so much as it was something any one can relate to: a human that makes mistakes he has to live with.

I can't wait for Brevoort to die of a heart attack

How much would nu-marvel fans and writers rage if Peter's marriage was brought back with a cosmic correction and included children.

A bullshit plot device just as lazy as the Deal but for a reverse purpose.

> Offscreen they retcon add the favour to be Spidey asking him to move a couch because he couldn't trust Loki with anything important

> Makes a deal with fucking Mephisto

>And keep in mind, this is all on JMS, Quesada had no input on these scenes, only the ending.
Is that true? Because I seem to remember that JMS demanded to have his name taken off the last issue precisely because Quesada forcing his bullshit on him became too much to handle and he ragequit.

So it'd be like how Jon came to be?

These scenes were in part 3, which still had his name on it. The only things Quesada forced were the Mephisto and marriage things, not these visions Peter had or all that stuff with Iron Man and Doctor Strange.

Most insulting part, she may as well be dead. She's a non-presence in Spider-Man comics. What was the last thing she did? Got butthurt because Peter/Ock dated a midget? That's pathetic.

Peter was an AWFUL person in high school. Not intentionally, mind you, but his suffering was all his own doing and he had a pretty messed up set of scruples.

-First instinct upon facing hardship is to rob a bank. Doesn't because "her whiz, but aunt may!" instead of the people whose lives he'd be ruining.
-Whines internally about no friends, constantly lashed out at other kids with contemptuous words. Especially bad with Flash, where both of them are good-hearted kids who honestly try to be nice to the other occasionally just to get passed off at the other being cunty.
-Blows girls off then wonders why they're mad at him.
-Talks shit about Spider-Man because he's honestly retarded enough to think fitting into the crowd will make him a suspect, further ostracizing himself.
-Directly causes a man's murder, whines at him for getting in his way.

I could go on. Watching him become a decent person later on as well as having all this happen through a relatable lens that makes this harder to see as douche behavior is what makes those stories strong, along withexcelent choreography.

Yeah, but if I was writing it it would be Spider-girl + her brother and the younger sister from RYVs.

Let the Parkers juggle 3 kids and 3 careers.

BUH
MUH
CHILDHOOD

It's a combination of manchildren in upper management not wanting things to change and the impression that Aunt May is so iconic and part of Peter's childhood we MUST keep her around.

Let Uncle Ben and Kaine help.
The Parker Family is a fine setup and something Spider-Man should have beaten Bruce and Clark to by at least a decade.

But was insulting gamers really necessary?

Peter's always self-deprecating, why would he ever stop?

>She's a non-presence in Spider-Man comics.

She got her own comic for herself and THREE universes where she is endgame. And she is still getting mentioned in movies and video games.

>May is a character that's too important to let die
>we will write her as a background character with all the depth of such and make her rarely appear in comics
Which is it, Marvel?
She is a non-presence, faggot. Anyone who's read anything after OMD knows it.
>THREE universes where she is endgame
What. Speak human.
>And she is still getting mentioned in movies and video games.
Who the fuck cares, Sup Forums faggot? We're talking about comics.

it's a kick to the dick, in ink

The second user is talking about MJ, you goof.

Also, again, it's about retaining status quo.

Peter Parker, the Spectacular Science Teacher

The students of Xavier's Institute for the Gifted wonder why Mr. Parker, their flaky flatscan science teacher is kept around?

But they don't know the Mr. Parker and Mr. Spiderman, the part-time special class teacher and NYC's public menace are one and the same.

It was a badly written story that had a ton of ass pulls and plot holes. In a world with literal gods and healers who can regrow limbs organs and resurrect the dead, not one of them were able to save an old woman from a gun shot wound except the Devil because of editorial mandate. Parker, despite being told by doctors, his Aunt and God himself to let her go, went ahead and made a deal with the devil. What did we get from this? We got a regression of a character to a status quo that hadn't existed in over two decades so that writers can make Spiderman a complete loser again and ship Parker with their shitty OCs like Carlie Cooper. Explanation stories that followed were every bit as shitty, like how he healed Aunt May's sucking chest wound with super strength chest compressions, Iron Man, Doctor Strange and Reed Richards wiping people's memory of him being Spiderman and MJ living with him for years unmarried because they were too lazy to do a full reboot. Perhaps fans would be able to forget about this shit if Marvel didn't constantly remind people of OMD by hinting of the marriage or having Mephisto pop up to gloat about it.

>posters clearly talking about Aunt May
>brings up MJ

I bet you think Osborn fucking Gwen was also a JMS idea.
Face it, tiger, back then Spider-Man was still a flagship title and editorial influenced/forced A LOT.

You know, I actually though about a way to bring back the marriage, but Marvel keeps making it more and more difficult.

Already done

Peter wakes up and he realizes he's next to MJ and is married. The debris from the latest comic-selling event has altered the timeline for Spiderman and he has to just roll with it.

Exactly, but he also is the general science teacher, twice the responsibility and the secrecy.

I still don't get how being with a supermodel makes him unrelatable. LIKE FUCK, every other girl after MJ he tries to date is a hot girl. Readers want to go for hot girls you faggots.
People like him because he is a grounded relatable human being. That doesn't mean life shits on him 24/7 like modern writers try to do.

That's why JMS Spidey was relatable for me. He still had relationship problems and had to deal with asshole coworkers. That shit is relatable.

But no, apparently the guy who's built like a fucking body builder with those ridiculous abs can't land a hot girl and that's what makes him unlikable.

But why would Quesada write a scene of alternate universe fat Ranroid Peter Parker complaining about how people only play videogames because their lives suck?
More importantly, why would JMS go out of his way to say that everything about OMD except the ending was all him?

Preach it, my friend! hashtag gamergate!

Don't forget his canonically spectacular bubble butt.

This story came out in 2007, 7 years before Gamergate.

oops, I miss read it.I thought you were talking about MJ.

Sorry, user.