Can we talk about the double standards against males in cartoons?
As a child I was always bothered when females would abuse/beat male characters as a form of humor when the reverse would be seen as sexism. Also female characters tended to have little to no flaws, had the most common sense, and could always beat their male friends in a fight because of girl power. When I was a little girl I had trouble relating to female characters because they were too perfect and I also felt bad about how they treated male characters so I looked up to male characters instead. Creating perfect female "role model" characters isn't a good thing for little girls, actually the opposite.
Obviously this isn't present in every cartoon but it's definitely common. What are your thoughts?
Dominic Allen
>As a child I was always bothered when females would abuse/beat male characters as a form of humor when the reverse would be seen as sexism. When in your life have you ever felt physically threatened by a female? I'm 5'7 and fairly thin and I never have in my life, no male has. That's why it's different. >Also female characters tended to have little to no flaws, had the most common sense, and could always beat their male friends in a fight because of girl power. Care to name some examples of flawless females in cartoons? Of course, it doesn't count if that's the gag, like say a Jessica Rabbit.
Joseph Hernandez
>The problem is that feminism has poisoned the writing well so much in BOTH directions that having balanced female characters requires a level of talent very few writers can achieve. (And those writers are even less common for cartoons, no thanks to the Animation Age Ghetto making working in the animation industry an unattractive career prospect.)
Jacob Mitchell
It was an over-reaction to cartoons in the 80s when the girl characters were just there to be the girl character. That spawned the Grrl! Power shit in the 90s and then got picked up by feminism to become "women can do no wrong, and even when they're wrong they were secretly right"
Evan Ross
Mabel went from best character in the show to worst character in the show without changing at all.
John Roberts
Your shitty opinion has been noted, and discarded
Liam Gonzalez
Don't try to pretend like people didn't like her in Season 1
Angel Edwards
How so?
Angel Nelson
>When in your life have you ever felt physically threatened by a female?
The OP is a woman
Luis Cooper
Don't try to pretend like people didn't like her in Season 2
Luke Wilson
Well clearly the OP is confused about male and female relationships then. I would ask what kind of woman the OP is if I wasn't convinced the OP was a male meninist trolling
Bentley Gonzalez
They were wrong, but they did like her
Aiden Bell
She was fun at first, but eventually her spunk became grating when she continued to ruin things for Dipper in order to further her own selfish goals. Literally up until the finale Mabel did not change.
Angel Perry
She didn't even change in the finale
Joseph Lee
They weren't wrong. You have ludicrously high standards for a skillfully manipulated 12-year-old.
Brandon Perez
>Everyone who disagrees with me is a troll
Ryan Martinez
It still shouldn't be seen as acceptable for a woman to beat a man dipshit. It doesn't matter if the ramifications for the reverse are worse.
Thomas Bell
Yeah, she was practically the definition of too much of a good thing. She would have been cool if she'd actually been forced to grow up and sacrifice things like Dipper was fucking CONSTANTLY
Christopher Ramirez
Poorly written characters are poorly written characters
Tyler Taylor
To take the example in the pic, like many other shows a lot is taken from the male's creator's memories of being a kid/teen. Which a lot of is remembering how much and how badly you fucked up and your difficulty in understanding and engaging with seemingly far more competent and attractive girls.
Carson Rivera
few to no flaws*
Adam Flores
She was brilliantly written. You're completely misinterpreting those episodes.
Oliver Taylor
I just like seeing cute girls comically hurt, and I'm disappointed it seems to happen so rarely compared to male characters
Isaiah Hughes
>You're completely misinterpreting those episodes.
Thomas Reyes
This.
Colton Rivera
>She was brilliantly written.
How? As a villain?
Dominic Martinez
> "women can do no wrong, and even when they're wrong they were secretly right"
I wanna sexually identify as David Xanatos
Xavier Long
FYI Sup Forums his is copypasta from at least two years ago (probably written about the GF finale, though I'm skeptical of a gurl writing it).
I said the same thing then as now, actually lately shows have been much better about having female characters get beaten up by men (even LoK, she had male opponents who kicked her ass), who are supposed to be stupid and to be funny because they are so stupid (fuck Mabel is this at times), and who get shit when they make mistakes. The more female writers a show has, the more likely female characters will do terrible things that are meant to be terrible, get beaten up, and suffer/are losers. The more male writers, the more chance the female characters are idealized, maybe because they're afraid.
Andrew King
Not to mention her immature selfishness was the only reason Bill almost won, if she didn't throw a tantrum over Dipper wanting to stay with Ford it all would've been prevented
Cameron Hughes
Can you name 1 time Mabel had to give up something in order for Dipper to be happy? Cause half the show is the opposite.
Kevin Parker
It's funny to me that you think that. Because in every case in the earlier episodes you're referring to what Mabel would have lost was of infinitely greater value than what Dipper eventually "lost".
Cooper Green
Sock Opera, but see for the real reason why you're wrong on this.
Nathan Fisher
Elaborate your vague statement please.
Liam Williams
it was a big problem in the 90s continued for a while it's really not a problem anymore. the two women pictured are extremely flawed characters. a common source of conflict in the show is how seriously fucked up they are. While most of the male characters in that show are as well, 100 percent of the female characters are
Jason Anderson
In hindsight Stan was the best character, you just don't appreciate him as much at the start, he was basically "let's make an amoral version of uncle scrooge and see how far disney will yet us take it".
Noah Sanders
She ALMOST DIDN'T though! She almost placed a shitty love interest over her brother ever returning to his body
Levi Richardson
Are you quoting yourself?
Connor Scott
Agreed, Stan is pretty great
Jose Evans
No, as a slightly misguided girl who genuinely wanted to do good for everyone, and failed to recognize some instances of her selfishness. And who was manipulated in the final episodes.
Julian Jackson
>a common source of conflict in the show is how seriously fucked up they are. While most of the male characters in that show are as well Except they never catch any shit for causing conflict, and no, Wendy is basically perfect in the canon of the show
Jordan Adams
>even LoK, she had male opponents who kicked her ass LoK went to the opposite extreme and had Korra so incompetent, she got her ass kicked all the time and had to be saved every time.
Carter Sanders
>extremely flawed characters
Are we watching the same show? Wendy didn't really have any flaws, or any interesting characteristics for that matter
John Myers
>And who was manipulated in the final episodes.
Would've been nice if that were even once acknowledged after it happened
Samuel Parker
Isn't Dipper forced to bow to his sister's selfish whims as if he's done something wrong multiple times? I don't watch this show, but I remember a long rant some months ago about his sister and Dipper's interactions with her.
Asher Robinson
>Sock Opera God I hate it when people bring up that fucking episode. Also the way Mabel realised in hindsight that not having the sock crazed fucked falling for her showed that the show wasn't going to take away her training wheels.
Justin Long
>Isn't Dipper forced to bow to his sister's selfish whims as if he's done something wrong multiple times? Yes.
Jaxson Rivera
>God I hate it when people bring up that fucking episode. Why?
Gabriel Wright
I do mean that quite literally. Dipper didn't lose anything, because Wendy would never go out with him no matter what. Division by 0 = infinite I didn't quote anyone, you dumbass. Try again. Now this is valid criticism. Too bad it pretty much always comes with piles of shit, like ITT. You mean like Dipper realized in hindsight that Wendy was never going to go out with him?
Nathaniel Green
Wasn't the whole point of that episode that Dipper found the way to make Wendy actually go out with him but he had to give that up because Mabel would literally become catatonic if she didn't get the pig she literally just found?
Dominic Sanchez
Again: DIPPER DID NOT LOSE ANYTHING. WENDY WOULD NEVER HAVE DATED HIM. Fucking shit, you guys are unironic misogynists.
Nolan Watson
I like how that one Mabel apologist in here is proving OP right
Jonathan Rivera
Found the tumblrina
Isaac Hughes
>Fucking shit, you guys are unironic misogynists. And there it fucking is. Can we get a new version of Godwin's Law?
And also, you clearly haven't seen that episode in a while because the universe where Mabel loses Waffles is the one where Wendy DOES IN FACT agree to go out with him.
Liam Rodriguez
>Wendy >Extremely flawed >Common source of conflict >Fucked up
Do we watch the same show?
Kevin Collins
You know, I can understand people who like Mabel, even throughout the whole show, but I don't get when people try to say she was a well-written character
Samuel Hill
He found a way to get her to spend time with him, which he should've realized they were doing as friends anyways. She makes it very clear later on that she never saw him in a romantic light.
Hudson Powell
>I didn't quote anyone, you dumbass. Try again.
Fine. Are you linking/replying to yourself as evidence?
Joshua Gomez
>DIPPER DID NOT LOSE ANYTHING. He lost the apprenticeship his uncle offered, which would have been a jumpstart to his dream career of being a paranormal investigator.
Jackson Butler
Not him but the real problem with GF is the creators obviously weren't very interested in Mabel or Wendy. Wendy was just there to look hot and be hot girl. Mabel got very popular with everyone outside of Sup Forums for being "wacky," but the writers didn't give a shit about ever giving he any depth or development, she was only comedy relief. All the characters with any depth or relevance in GF were male. It was kind of a throwback in being specially bad with its female characters compared to most other big ticket shows and cartoons, it's hard to think of a current, newer show that's worse actually. It's not the worst ever by far just really bad with female characters for the time it aired.
Jackson Rogers
Does anyone else think it's kind of fucked up in retrospect that Wendy apparently knew Dipper had a crush on her and was presumably using that as a way to manipulate him in earlier episodes?
Brandon Taylor
I'm a guy, you fucktard. I'll call out anyone I see fit whenever they're being biased. Deal with it.
Nathaniel Adams
Pretty sure Mabel was based on the creator's sister, so I disagree they "didn't give a shit" about her.
Tyler Martin
>Doesn't like a poorly written girl character >Obviously I'm a misogynist
I'm a girl, you fucktard.
Jose Roberts
You can not give a shit about your sister. Or your whole family.
Leo Cox
You're being pretty biased yourself here, you realise
Luis Jackson
"Try again" was rhetorical there. But yes, I am, because in a fast-moving thread like this one it's very easy to miss a post or three. He CHOSE to give it up after Mabel specifically told him he was free to choose his own path. You're gonna have to do better than that, GF hater.
Carson Reed
Basing characters off of family members is often a bad idea
Anthony Gomez
The show is literally based on him and his twin sister's adventures when they were kids, and in the show Bible it explicitly says that Dipper and Mabel love each other, and while they can be mean or selfish they should never hate each other.
Robert Perry
>Mabel specifically told him he was free to choose his own path.
After he had already promised to always stay by her
Carter Taylor
>in a fast-moving thread like this one it's very easy to miss a post or three. Found the newbie, if you think this is "fast"
Nathaniel Johnson
Can't just accept different perspectives, huh?
Jaxson Cox
Alex actually said Mabel was him in a lot of ways because he was more extroverted. But whoever they were based on, it doesn't change the fact that the only characters who got arcs or growth, deep motivations, or did plot-important things were male while females were just prop characters for the male ones and their development. As noted ironically the one exception was Pacifica for two episodes that weren't even originally intended but the team throwing it out there for the fans.
Benjamin Rivera
>and in the show Bible it explicitly says that Dipper and Mabel love each other I tell my parents I love them all the time, too.
Hunter Lewis
>As a child I was always bothered when females would abuse/beat male characters as a form of humor when the reverse would be seen as sexism. Also female characters tended to have little to no flaws, had the most common sense, and could always beat their male friends in a fight because of girl power. true growing up I found that annoying but since I never was a cartoon kind (I always preferred books and historical documentaries myself) it didn't bother me as long as there was not much correlation with real world
but then feminism finally found it's way to my beloved ex-commie homeland and girls IRL started to act like that
Leo Powell
>Creating perfect female "role model" characters isn't a good thing for little girls, actually the opposite. Also there seems to be some misconception about what a kid will gravitate towards for a role model. Usually, they're not even watching cartoons for a moral role model, but for a rolePLAY model. As in, Batman is badass, I wanna be him because he's tough. Not Batman always does the right thing, I want to be him because he's the hero.
Girls don't admire Wonder Woman because she's a female superhero in the face of the patriarchy during a time when the diversity whatever the fuck. Girls like her because she can jump through buildings and hit people with a whip. Wonder Woman can be a purple monster, kids would still be excited if she punches buildings and tanks.
Also, I specifically remember all my favorite characters in stuff being someone who made me laugh. I didn't give a shit about Jasmine because she was a "tuff grrrll" when I was young. I liked Genie because I wanted him as a best friend.
Lincoln Gray
>what is self-hate Evidence?
Ethan Miller
You don't understand what a show bible is then
Luke Myers
Which country? Genuinely curious.
Brayden Lee
It's a really badly written episode. >has the mystery plot once again get derailed by romance sub-plots, considering the writers should have gotten past this by season 2 >bill cheats when making the deal by not upholding his end of it, showing that he doesn't need to trick people with wordplay since he has no obligation to keep his word in the first place >bill's antics when controlling dipper was annoying and makes who is supposed to be the biggest threat in the series look stupid >and doesn't even make sense since we learn later on he has had experience with controlling humans before now
Logan Rivera
>what is self-hate You tell me, you're clearly the expert if you think not liking a girl character makes someone a misogynist.
Carson Martin
Poland
Michael Reyes
I see what you mean
Also it seemed weirdly devoted to Dipper suffering for 22 minutes
Jonathan Martin
>itt: girls who just wanna be one of the guys
you're never gonna be one of the guys
Nathaniel Smith
It doesn't have to be literal. And that was said inside the bubble, Mabel specifically told him that stuff didn't matter once they got out. Sounds like you're the newfag on this board, because it's very fast for Sup Forums.
Samuel Morgan
>has the mystery plot once again get derailed
Dude Sock Opera is one of the few plot centered eps in the whole season whatever the Mabel crush backdrop is. I Also think it was far and away Bill's best appearance just agree to disagree I guess. Plus it was the only episode to call Mabel out and have her have to sacrifice as imperfect as it was, more not less of that was needed.
Jackson Williams
>you're never gonna be one of the guys not all traps have dicks user
Carson Hall
>Also it seemed weirdly devoted to Dipper suffering for the entire show FTFY
Jaxon Roberts
I'm 21, but I still smile like a little boy whenever I see Pidge get beaten up in the Voltron series.
Connor Gonzalez
Well yeah, but that episode in particular
Hunter Perez
>using 'pussy' as an insult Isn't that in fact misogynistic?
Cooper Walker
>Sounds like you're the newfag on this board, because it's very fast for Sup Forums. "Fast for a snail" is still slow enough to follow.
Cameron Mitchell
Probably not with your level of intellect, though...
Luis Baker
I always feel like the guy who complains about it here is just irked by all the gay porn it generated or something.
Leo Russell
Wendy was very poorly handled but I'd say she just came across as a garden variety self-absorbed teenager, not perfect. She clearly didn't have her shit together. She said she was stressed all the time and turned out to be a total loser at school.
The big problem with her was the writers just ignored her. She was just an object for Dipper and that is all. They spent none of her screen time on actually her. Pacifica accidentally got a better character arc than Wendy. But it wasn't so much about Wendy being perfect it was just about the writers not giving a shit about her.
Some similar stuff happened to Mabel with the writers seeming to lose interest and focus.
I've often noticed this: with U.S. shows, the more female writers a show has, the more fucked up and flawed the female characters are. Some of the most fucked up female characters who pay the most for their actions and suffer real consequences today are in shows created by women.
Juan Long
By your own logic, aren't you being incredibly misogynistic right now?
Aiden Mitchell
I've said this before, but I, and I think a lot of people here, would have forgiven Mabel for most if not all of her bullshit throughout the series if there was just a quick scene or two in the finale that showed that she was sorry for what happened, that she acknowledged she hasn't been the best sister, and that she was going to change for the better
William Kelly
>Does anyone else think it's kind of fucked up in retrospect that Wendy apparently knew Dipper had a crush on her and was presumably using that as a way to manipulate him in earlier episodes? >>bill cheats when making the deal by not upholding his end of it, showing that he doesn't need to trick people with wordplay since he has no obligation to keep his word in the first place More valid criticism of the type I mentioned in but again surrounded by garbage.
Dylan Rogers
>Some of the most fucked up female characters who pay the most for their actions and suffer real consequences today are in shows created by women. such as?
Jordan Phillips
I really hope future cartoon writers don't base female characters off of Mabel
Luis Ross
Kinda sounds like you just have a Mabel-boner that doesn't include Wendy, since you keep defending her and saying Wendy was a flawed character when she was presented as a bit of a Mary Sue in show.