One of the largest reasons comic books are not nearly as popular as manga is a lack of longer runs by single writers...

One of the largest reasons comic books are not nearly as popular as manga is a lack of longer runs by single writers and single artist teams

It seems to me the bigger issue is that they don't have a beginning middle or end, or any jumping on points that let new readers comfortably pick things up.

Which I always thought was the point of a Trade Paperback, but that's just me.

Probably because the manga work model is insane, and not something I want any other country to adopt. Also, what are mangaka studio assistants.

>studio assistants
I wouldn't mind studio assistants for western artists if they still kept the same general aesthetic and style

It's also not like there haven't been large writer-artist runs in the past. In fact that was more so the case than what is happening today.

>It seems to me the bigger issue is that they don't have a beginning middle or end
fpbp

Peer pressure, access, and cheapness.

My friends were into it, I could get it in a bookstore and they are a few bucks for 100+ pages.

The first comics I started getting into were the Tsunami line trades. I don't think they much do that anymore.

>I wouldn't mind studio assistants for western artists if they still kept the same general aesthetic and style

That does happen though.Some Colorists have flatters. Artists have background artists. Some artists even have layouts done for them.

Nah. I don't go into manga thinking "oh boy, fifteen volumes of this by the same person!" I'm drawn by the gimmick and obscure niche appeal of the subject matter. Superheroes are passé since you grew up with them, comedy harem manga in exotic surroundings is interesting because it's new and different.

Longer runs with the same team are a relic of an age when niche comic books could sustain sales and be subsidized by the bigger titles. Anybody who pulled it off was guarenteed employment for however long the book lasted. Nowadays, even the Big Two books struggle to stay above board, and everybody's too focused on trying to secure the next paying gig to stick with anything that isn't an instant hit.

Japan isn't that different, what with the insane focus on popularity polling to the point

*to the point that even the interesting stuff is vulnerable to getting cut off at the knees because readers weren't into it for whatever reason

>comedy harem manga in exotic surroundings is interesting because it's new and different.
sad but true

You're equating comics with capeshit again.

>comics

Is it "But that's a Marvel/DC Capeshit problem" hour again already?

I suppose consistency in style is nice, but at least in terms of art I think it's actually pretty damn nice and refreshing if the artist changes regularly between arcs and the quality is still high.

Long running manga aren't any better either, and there's loads of those too.

>comedy harem manga
>interesting because it's new and different
This is some weak bait

>inb4 someone says that you can just start at #1 for Manga but you can't start at #1 for Action or Detective Comics because reasons

Because #1 of Action Comics not only has 2 times the the size of the longest manga runing, but its also inconsistent in characterization, art and writting,with most of it being shit, to not talk about the shitload of crossovers, events and retcons.

>Long running manga aren't any better either, and there's loads of those too.

At least those usually deliver a consistent, constantly improving product. So it's like you're supporting somebody in getting better at something you like well enough to read in the first place.

With capeshit, you're basically spending your money on a type of brand product that has quality control-issues so crass that everybody involved would've been executed for mass murder were they a food company and that would be made of nothing but the finest Chinesium brand Chinesium metal were it machinery or tools of any type.

but you can perfectly start with the superman rebirth issue 1, 52 by morrison, all new wolverine or remender x factor.there are many examples of comic books that you can start with issue 1 and understand everything

Do you think mangakas have no pressure from their editors? Unless you are one of the most successful, a publisher can fuck you, the author of Gintama told how many things in the beginning changed in favor of being more attractive for young people, apart from everyone knows that the management of schedules for manga is very bad

Actually this is the source of the problem for the modern big 2 and I say this as a huge fan of stuff like Morrison's DP, the transition from single issue storytelling to arc based storytelling is what has fucked comics, and it's gotten especially bad in the 21st century with the decompression problem. When a comic was just a single story, it didn't matter what issue number it was, what title it was etc, because you could just pick up any issue and read the story. Long runs, particularly those after 1980 are definitely more difficult to get into.

>Because #1 of Action Comics not only has 2 times the the size of the longest manga runing
Patently false, there are manga currently running with over 1000 chapters, action is about to get there in a few months. Even JoJo has over 900 chapters.
>also inconsistent in characterization,
Not really, Superman's character has shifted like twice.
>art and writting,
No shit, different people are drawing and writing it, if you want something exclusively written and drawn by one person, then read that, you can't claim it's the length of the comic that turns you off if it's actually something else
>with most of it being shit
This is also untrue, Action is pretty good throughout especially the Original Seigel Shuster Run, the Binder and Maggin eras.
>to not talk about the shitload of crossovers, events and retcons.
Which start about 50 years or 600 issues into the run and always tell you what you need to read to get the complete story?

>At least those usually deliver a consistent, constantly improving product

Nope. Those are far and few between, just like western comics. Do you seriously think Berserk has only gotten better the longer it has been running? Or nearly any shounen beyond HnK, One Peace and few other notable exceptions? HxH got almost unbearable at points, and not solely because of the hiatuses.

f/a/ggots literally would read smeared shit on paper if you called it manga

>Prison school
>Elf-san wa Yaserarenai.
>Tokyo ghoul (bisexual edgy fantasy)
>Kurositsuji
All these are the most popular sleeves currently in the American weeb community and all are horrible Japanese teen fantasies, the only "healthy" manga that occurs to me now is onepunch man and boku no hero (which is mediocre) and ironically, they are capeshit.

I miss Double Arts.

I hope the current run of Doom Patrol makes it past 20 issues.

>Do you think mangakas have no pressure from their editors?

It's mostly pressure towards making a product that will sell consistently for a long time and better over time, which is legit enough.

Meanwhile, editorial pressure in capeshit is almost exclusively about making sure that the art is delivered on time and the overall product will alienate people with RL experience and/or with a highschool education while also to pissing off people who have been following the stories for a while.

It comes down to editors trying to make a better product on the japanese side vs editors working hard to deliver a consistently bad and unsatisfying product on the US capeshit side.

>Probably because the manga work model is insane
Then I guess the euro model is a happy medium?

>Meanwhile, editorial pressure in capeshit is almost exclusively about making sure that the art is delivered on time and the overall product will alienate people with RL experience and/or with a highschool education while also to pissing off people who have been following the stories for a while.

Yeah, this isn't a biased and completely narrow POV or anything.

>lack of longer runs by single writers and single artist teams

this is good bait

>inconsistent in characterization
you telling me that current Superman doesn't hate japs and germans like he does in the comics from 1944? what a shock

>Do you seriously think Berserk has only gotten better the longer it has been running?

The art certainly did. I'll gladly admit that the story hasn't been going anywhere for a long time though. It was not a good idea to segue Guts away from his confrontation with Griffith as hard as the story did, but I can understand why they did that from a commercial POV.

>HxH got almost unbearable at points, and not solely because of the hiatuses.

HxH is the odd one out, not how things normally play out.

>At least those usually deliver a consistent, constantly improving product.
Most long running manga do the exact opposite

>Meanwhile, editorial pressure in capeshit is almost exclusively about making sure that the art is delivered on time and the overall product will alienate people with RL experience and/or with a highschool education while also to pissing off people who have been following the stories for a while.
>It comes down to editors trying to make a better product on the japanese side vs editors working hard to deliver a consistently bad and unsatisfying product on the US capeshit side
God, this shit is so fucking fake, this is the manga manga publishers' schedule, does this seem like they care about their health and not that they deliver their drawings on time? and what bother the reader are literally cases of comics that are already shit, like riri wiliams. but that does not mean that the authors do not have a consensus of quality, in the manga the author of jojo's editors pressured him to put "pretty girls" for the readers

Here's how I know you've never read the old comics.

I think these are both important elements of the same overarching difference in mindset.

With western comics, DC wants to sell me Batman until the heat death ofvthe universe. It doesnt matter who is writing Batman or drawing Batman. It can be the 17th time that Batman is facing the Joker 'for the first time'. Maybe Batman is actually a robot now. What matters is that I keep buying Batman, and everything else is just an endless juggling act to keep things going with occasional novelty.

Manga, with a few exceptions, is one and done. Some guy wants to tell you a story, and if that guy dies that story almost always dies with him. Almost no reboots, and once a story is done you move on.

Even ultra long running shit, like Jojo, doesnt hang around the nest too long. Once your story is over the focus moves on, we didnt get 3 decades of the SAME Jojo over and over.

Just look at this board and tell me that it ain't happening.

Plus this is the one genre were the allegedly smartest man on Earth knows about as much about antibodies as a dyed-in-the-wool antivaxxer. Plus after 9/11, even the dumbest American should've noticed that it's not normal that a city gets rebuilt exactly the way it used to be after the devastation of every consecutive alien/angels/Feminists with bee weapons/interdimensional horrors invasion, giant supermutant attack ect.

>even the dumbest American should've noticed that it's not normal that a city gets rebuilt exactly the way it used to be after the devastation of every consecutive alien/angels/Feminists with bee weapons/interdimensional horrors invasion, giant supermutant attack ect.

either is a child who can turn into a man who can fly fighting a giant robot

...

>American / European artists do not evolve their style with time

But we have gotten three decades of Naruto, Guts, Luffy, Goku, The Major. Hell, we got 2 decades of Jotaro to just your example.

And by ignoring this execuse that you make, things like Hellboy are way better.

CONSEQUENCES.

Hell, the problem with the question in these threads is that anons don't actualy want to adress the problem and just try to deny any reason provided.

assistants are literally that: assistants. the mangaka does the scripts, the layout, the pencils, anything that could be considered the core of the comic. assistants do clean up, lettering, boring shit like large blocks of ink, or whatever other details the mangaka doesn't have the time for. some teams are more equal, like CLAMP, or the guys who do JoJo's, but not all of them. IIRC, Shirow Masamune didn't have assistants for a long time. one reason his work was monthly, not weekly

All of the stuff that you mentioned shakes the status quo and develops the world than Big 2 shit. For example, you have Goku's son becoming an actual adult, while Damian and Jon will remain forever in the same age range.

Is that why GTO is currently in its like fifth revamp? Because the mangakas vision is so uncompromised and there's a clear "ending" until the next cash grab sequel because the mangaka can't make anything else sell?

you know there are capeshit comics that are not long right? I literally recommend him to a friend Superman: Secret Identy and he loved it, and it is a story of 4 issues with beginning and end. The same with x men de morrison or captain america by remender.

Yep. Long running stuff still exists.

But you'll notice those are STILL linear stories without all of the bullshit of western publushing cycles. Reading One Peice is easy: you start at the beginning and keep reading. And even Naruto, shit as it was, ACTUALLY ENDED.

Nigga you got provided a very good reason. Why are you still even arguing? What are you trying to prove to yourself?

well 1. marvel actually did provide explanation but mainly that's not what people are in comics to read. superheroes are about these bigger than life ideas and not the minutia of reality. Watchmen is another thing that shows that.

there are things you have to suspend your disbelief about.

even the BPRD i've read is less "how to deal with aftermath of superhero battles" and more constantly escalating apocalypses

what's weird is i do agree with the broader point about how the stories are watered down bc of the inbreeding of the industry. i just would like the fix to be more about the Whys of the fights than the How do we fix them with realism of it.

Eh, BPRD's Hell on Earth ran for way too fucking long and some of the spin offs are pretty forgettable and bland.

> jon literally only has 2 years since it was created
You really need a better example user

>And even Naruto, shit as it was, ACTUALLY ENDED.

So do most C-list books, dum dum.

and Damian's grown up! He was 10 when Morrison introduced him and now he's 13

this is a funny viewpoint. Comics fans tend to argue in favor of eating the same flavor of applesauce, every day. I would think that if you had a book done by a consistent team, after a while you would notice a change in artist, and bitch. I certainly noticed when artists changed, and I would stop reading those comics and try to figure out where that guy went.

Part of the appeal of manga is that the art is more abstract, than in Western comics. the art style is much more pronounced and has a much more profound on the atmosphere of the comic. Akira Toriyama could not do Berserk, and Naoko Takeuchi could not do One Piece. it's almost ludicrous that American artists jump around so much, but then, when you are going for a realistic art style, it doesn't matter that much.

I'm at an airport and my flight leaves in 3 hours while I wait, I do not have much better things to do.

Then explain shit like Shin Black Jack and other sequel mangas that continue after the original creator is dead. Doraemon, Lupin, etc. keep coming out with barely any continuity.

>And even Naruto, shit as it was, ACTUALLY ENDED.

Not only you're overlooking a lot here, you're also being dishonest as fuck. 5 years ago the relationship of Batman and the world around him wasn't the same, as it isn't today, as it wasn't 10 years ago. The roster isn't the same and their interactions changed, even it if it's not an amazing 360º turn.

The same problems that can be pinpointed in western comics, can be traced back to manga.

>See picture of Doom Patrol expecting Doom Patrol thread
>It’s a “Mango is better then Merican comix thread
Great just great

They do, but your monetary support is 100% to the brand and 0% to the artist's work in the current capeshit system. They replace whole teams even during ongoing runs, so no run will ever be a document to any artist's progress the way a Manga series is.

>Damian
>the FOURTH Robin
>Not an example of shaken status quo
You are retarded.

Technically he’s the 5th Robin

>Shakes the status quo by transitioning Gohan to be the main protagonist.
>After Cell arc: “Screw this, Goku gets to be stronger than Gohan and he’s back as the main protagonist.
>Death is also meaningless because everyone comes back due to the Dragonballs.
Dragon ball certainly has consequences and shakes up the status quo.

Do you guys agree that hentai is the best even better is the tentacle porn on it?

>Reading One Peice is easy
Reading Batman, Superman or even Spidey is even easier. You get a collected arc by an amazing author and delight yourself with the story, no stress about continuity or baggage unless you see the need to.

Well, that is if you're interested in reading a good story about a certain character of your interest and that's it. Now, if you're actually interested in exchanging banter on Sup Forums or Facebook about the latest chapter of something, then I get you.

>Then explain shit like Shin Black Jack

Go Nagai is an artist who's also the head of his company owning his IP. He basically creates IPs and then puts those to work to earn his living.

you can sort of do this. The thing is, there is still at least 30 years of history behind any character, and writers will reference that, or the greater body of work around the character will reference it. How many times has Red Son been referenced in other Superman comics, games, whatever? If you start at Dragonball 1, you will eventually get through all of Dragonball, missing only a few movie-only characters and events.

not saying one is better, although I do have my preference. There is a shitload more Superman media, and having more cooks in the kitchen gets you a wider variety of flavors. still, you can't argue against the simplicity of having one cook, and a menu where everything on it suits your taste

Sounds a lot like western comics to me.

I think a problem for western comic is the shared continuity, backstories and massive lore.

Manga you just pick up at vol1 chapter 1. You don't need to know about anything else to understand what you are reading.

>writers will reference that
Not as much as you'd like to think, and the references don't carry nearly as much weight as you think. It isn't detrimental to the reader's comprehension of the story and most of the time it comes with an editor's note.

It is exactly as complex as Sup Forums jerking about some faux foreshadowing the author did 694 chapters ago and 99% of the fanbase didn't get it.

What's wrong with starting at Action Comics #1 then?

Shit, I must have had a brain fart. I meant stuff like Black Jack Neo and Young Black Jack, not Shin Black Jack ni yoroshiku which is entirely different although semi-related.

I find the shared continuity and lore to be fun.

this, the "B-BUH MUH CONTINUITY" is a complaint that comes straight from a casual's mouth. It's a personally enforced mental barrier they use as an excuse.

Sup Forumsnon here. What you, and you described are certainly part of the discrepancy, but I honestly think that this isn't the main reason.

The main reason manga is massive in japan and comics are dying in America is because Japanese companies figured out how to make their product as cheap as possible while also being everywhere.

Manga magazines have fifteen chapters of various series. They're printed on newsprint in black and white making them cost about 3-5 dollar's a pop. On top of that manga magazines are just about everywhere. newstands, convenience stores, grocery stores, you name it you can buy manga there.

So think about it this way. Five dollars a week to follow up to fifteen different series consistently. And you don't have to drive to a comic store.

How in the world can the big two compete with that?

TPBs exist, but I agree with you to an extent. The social expect that comes from being "easier to read" is also overlooked. They are easier to consume, so they are easier to talk about with friends.

Dragonball, and other super-long running manga aren't good examples of the best arguments for Manga-style production. shorter works, like Full Metal Alchemist, or even super short stuff like Ghost in the Shell, are a better example. brilliant stories that last a few years, or just a few volumes, and then conclude. there actually isn't much difference between Shonen battle manga bullshit and Capeshit. other than the consistency of the writing, story tone, and characterization

>user asks why manga is more popular than comics and why people seem to like narratives with just one creator writting a single story with consistency

>poster gives his opinion and personal reasons for such

>user doesn't like his opinion them tries to "refute" why this reason os not the reason for why manga is more popular than comics, even if what is said is not only common knowldge if you ask a lot of people but also personal views in first hand that are pertinent for the answer

What you guys want? That the reason is just "bad luck and irony of the destiny"? That people agree that the bug 2 style of telling stories is flawless and encourages new readers?

desu his papper is shit, he had some old editions of stardust crussader by viz that literally started to break down only about 4 years. the good editions cost 16-20 dollars

I know. It feels like it always comes from people that don't read comics or that just have just an initial grasp on it. It's so much easier than they think, if only they had the interest.

No, not really. The Japanese are terrible nazis who oppress and discriminate against juridical persons, so their system will naturally never attain the artistic heights of the comics published by the Disney company.

Have you ever considered that you conditioned yourself to acept a low hanging fruit, that is usualy considered shit writting in most other mediuns? Why you guys even cry about Bendis and Slott changing stuff them?

We just want people to admit they don't read big 2 comics because they don't want to. We're sick of the excuses, and the fact that the excuse makers try and change the big 2 from the outside to fit their alleged tastes while they have absolutely no interest in reading in the first place.

>Part of the appeal of manga is that the art is more abstract, than in Western comics. the art style is much more pronounced and has a much more profound on the atmosphere of the comic.
Scud The Disposable Assassin, Stray Toasters, Shade The Changing Man, Slaine, The Maxx, Nemesis The Warlock, Grendel, Sandman and much fucking more all disprove this retarded ass statement born of willful ignorance.

None of those would be a bad thing if the Big two would let books stay self contained most of the time. Constant crossovers and events are really what make comics hard to approach. Just look at how well Ms Marvel was doing until they drug her through a crossover event

1)The magazines aren't meant to be collected the Tankobans are.
2)Take better care of your shit, I have old volumes from Viz that are literally over a decade old and have held up just fine.

This really makes me ponder.

This has nothing to do with my post and is borderline incoherent. Make a point or fuck off.

please, read comics, I literally read the morison run without having read ANYTHING from x men before and understood 100%. His references as "cicplos was changed mentally before" are things that do not affect the plot at all, the same with things like all new wolverine that give you to understand that the original logan died and that's it.
the same with literally all things of rebirth or all new marvel, damn there are runaways or academy avengers are other examples.

Imagine MUH CONTINUITY faggots attempting to view Goddard or Rocha film
>WHY IS THIS HAPPENING, IT WASN'T PAINSTAKINGLY EXPLAINED TO ME IT'S LITERALLY UNINTELLIGIBLE SOMEONE PLEASE HELP

Sejic cry

Not that user and not even sure what you're talking about here, but I'd say the anons on Sup Forums aren't against changing, but against badly written stories? Like... in any other medium?

And seriously, "conditioned yourself"? You could be clear about your point and I'd make this exact reply and this would take us both anywhere.

>it's another "OP Thinks they know the problem with the industry" again

Legit, the only ONLY reasons comics don't sell as well as they once did are price, availability and distribution. Because comics aren't on newsstands and at the grocery store anymore people can't find them. And normies don't a) know you can get them online and b) don't want to pay 4-6 bucks for something they'll enjoy for 15 mins.

Manga sells better because every bookstore, library and school bookfair has loads of them instock for a moderately accessible price at a larger page length.

It has nothing to do with continuity or creative cohession

This this and more this

So you really is buying into the "bad luck and irony of the destiny" and saying that people prefer manga "just because".


>you: why you dont read big 2?
>I find it a mess of continuity, characterization and art
>you: why dont you read this part of this character them? You just have to ignore that it was retconed 2 issues later!
>oh that can even be nice! But personaly I personaly find the idea of chery picking canon and pretending that things doesn't happe in a story kind of stupid. I usualy prefer creator owned stuff...
>you: REEEEEEE YOU HAVE THE WRONG OPINION WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CHANGE THE MEDIUM!?

It's not about having a single run, or even a beginning, middle and end. The problem with comics is that they rarely make forward progress. Just look at any typical capeshit arc and compare it to something like DBZ or Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Batman foils whatever plan the Joker had. But so what? It doesn't push anything forward. And the reader knows that the Joker will just be back next time.

But in DBZ? Goku beating the villain of the week means that he's getting stronger. It doesn't matter that power levels are bullshit. The reader still has a feeling of progress. Same with Jojo. It doesn't matter how inconsequential the villain is, the heroes are still making forward progress on their journey to defeat the final villain. You almost never get that in superhero comics.

Sup Forums doesn't talk about those comics, so they don't count.

>Part of the appeal of manga is that the art is more abstract, than in Western comics. the art style is much more pronounced and has a much more profound on the atmosphere of the comic. Akira Toriyama could not do Berserk, and Naoko Takeuchi could not do One Piece.
But that's wrong. Of course those authors could write and draw each other's mangas if the tone of the story would allow it, if there was a commercial interest of if they themselves would allow it. For this an reason there are animated chibi spin-offs of incredibly dark mangas like fucking Devilman.

In regard of art quality, I believe manga and western comics are tied at the best and worst they have to offer.

They aren't very experimental in art style to be honest. They are just kind of different from the normal style that Marvel and DC go for.

european stuff is always better at it

You're a dumb nigger, I really could care less if people don't read big 2, I'd never even have the imaginary conversation you're talking about, I'd never ask why someone doesn't read big 2 because I know the reason, they don't want to.
>you can just ignore that it was retconned 2 issues later
This is exactly the dishonest bullshit I was talking about. Go jerk your fucking hateboner somewhere else.

I can't tell if you're being earnest or mocking the attitude of most retards on Sup Forums. Either way it infuriates me.

Slaine and Nemesis the Warlock are Euro comics.

this logic you tried to apply here doenst make any fucking sense. did it sound better in your head? lol