What exactly is compellling about an omnipotent perfect character?

What exactly is compellling about an omnipotent perfect character?

At least a Goku has flaws and struggles. Superman is just perfect and has no limits.

Wow how fucking original

What is compelling is Clark's humanity in contrast to his abilities. If you had actually read the material you might have a more original troll.

>Goku
>flaws and struggles
Lol. Could have fucking said Vegeta instead. He is the only reason I put up with fucking Super at this point.

Ask yourself why a character like One Punch Man is so popular right now. It's not the suit or powerset that people like about Superman. They like him as a person trying to do the right thing against an unjust and uncaring universe. Do you really think people like Batman because he has gadgets and no powers? Or Spider man becuase he's got such a cool powerset?

Superman isn't a powerset. He's a character that embodies ideas and concepts. I know this is unfamiliar territory for you but it's a fundamental part of storytelling.

In the grand scheme of things, Superman is mid-tier and he only manages to get by via determination or acting as a glorified distraction so his friends can come up with the real solution

...

>At least a Goku

>Perfect
His last arc was him going back to the past because he wanted to be sure his daddy wasn't a crazy genocider mastermind and needing Booster Gold to save him.

He's got huge issues with pushing himself and balancing his Krypton side with his human side. It says a lot about him when his BFF is BATMAN.

>Omnipotent

Only physically, and in a comic book world that's not all that impressive.

It is in DBZ because literally every problem in DBZ comes down to physical conflict. That's not so in Superman's world where plots and schemes and indirect action hold a lot more power.

If you roll up a physically omnipotent character in Mutants and Masterminds the GM has a trillion ways to still slap your shit.

Goku's an autist who would gamble away the lives of all his friends and family for a chance to fight someone stronger. Supes can be a bit an idiot at times but he always strives to do the right thing.

>Mid-tier

Not really. He's played huge roles in Crisis-tier situations, even the original crisis where Kal-L is the one to finish off the Anti-Monitor.

Even in Metal he's the one that woke Batman out of his funk and the one helping him dive into the Cosmic Forge of Plot Device.

Goku looks like a huge autistic choad against his own Superman Jiren.

You pair him against Superman Goku ends up looking like an ADD weeb that spends all his time working out in the gym compared to a guy with a job, happy family, and a reputation as a pillar of the community.

Yeah, Supes is good at being a brick and he's pretty smart, but most of his enemies have powers that let them get by those powers easily.

I hate it when weebs talk shit on Superman when they haven't read a single page. This coming from asshats who think power levels is good writing

You just said why Goku is more compelling.

That's not compelling, that's idiotic

OP only read the Encyclopedia Dramatica entry on Sup Forums, you'll have to forgive him

There's an ED article on Sup Forums.

>Clark Kent
>perfect
Clark is a total fucking dweeb. Almost to stereotypical sitcom dad levels.

>being a selfish piece of shit makes someone more compelling
... This attitude explains a lot.

Some of the best works are essentially character studies on those with obsessive personalities.

>OP still hasn't read any Elliot S! Maggin stories.

>At least a Goku has flaws and struggles.
top kek

Limited series where Clark gets tired of writing fake news all day for an internet only Daily Planet and does some real investigative journalism to discover who really runs the world when?

>implying Dragon Ball is some kind of deep character study
Pfft! Yeah, whatever you say, mate.

>perfect
He was shy and goofy

Saying that Superman real personality is what he play as a superhero is like thinking Peter Parker is asmartass douchebag who always get the last word as peter parker isntead of being a nerd

If he's only roughly as important as Batman then he's mid-tier at best. Or Batman of all people is high-tier and you have to wonder what went wrong in comics.

He doesn’t Superman his limits and has been defeated by numerous enemies. There’s a reason why Lex Luthor’s intelligence, Doomsay’s strength & Darkseid’s everything manages to pose enormous threats despite his strengths.

...

>At least a Goku has flaws and struggles
Flaws that people eventually dismiss because he will never learn and his struggles are solved by punching shit and raising his power levels.

I agree with Vegeta is a much better character.

>OP right now

>I'm only a man in a funny red sheet
>Lookin for kryptonite on this one way street
He's just a man who goes around trying to make the world a better place as best he can. He's so commited to his mission that he's died a few times trying to do it.

You a dummy, dummy.

What are Goku's flaws, as a character? If he went through genuine growth as a person, what would he change about himself? Goku's biggest "flaw" is that he's outrageously stupid, but something that's always played for humor isn't really a character flaw, and it's really superficial.

Goku doesn't "struggle," either. Not really. He doesn't "lose." A loss is something you learn from. If it's a physical loss, you come up with a new strategy or something to win next time. All Goku does is get kicked around by the new big bad guy for a while to make it look like the bad guy's number is really big, then Goku yells loud enough for his number to get bigger than the bad guy's.

He hasn't really changed the world at all in-universe. Writers are afraid to make him actually succeed in anything but fending off supervillains.

>outrageously stupid
Not even OP and I know that’s false. The guy’s surprisingly smart in combat & has went from the monkey boy living in the middle of nowhere to getting friends, getting to know the rest of the planet and come to enjoy fighting for sport.

This was actually answered in the Bronze Age.
One issue pointed out that if he dedicated himself to saving and improving the world 24/7 would drive him crazy, hence the Clark Kent identityz
Another issue had Superman put more time but it brought up a pressing issue; if Superman handled all the affairs of humans, they’d grew dependent on him and never grow. He decides to back off and let humanity makes it own mistakes.

Vegeta pulling a power up out of his ass and beating Hakaishin Toppo was the biggest bullshit. By trying to compensate for his second fiddle reputation they gave him a badly cooked fanservice moment. He's as bad as Goku now.

...

>He hasn't really changed the world at all in-universe.
The Legion disagrees.

Superman has done more to the world than any other hero.

>Limited series where Clark gets tired of writing fake news
Stop.

His character flaw in DBZ is that he is too trusting and will try to win over his opponent to the side of good even to the detriment of himself and others. He got over this with the Freeza saga which forced him to confront someone irredeemable. He will never stop trying to convert his opponent as that is still a core part of his character, but now he knows the limit to it as shown with his interactions with Buu and Cell.

In the same arc, he was forced to confront his own heritage as a Saiyan and what that means for his character. After spending the first half of the series denying it, he finally embraces it, culminating in his transformation into a Super Saiyan and the speech immediately after.

In Dragon Ball Super his character flaw is that he is too eager to fight strong opponents, a minor aspect from the earlier series that has become flanderized. The current story arc confronts this, but with the current series ending soon, it will likely not be resolved until there is a new series.

I'd be curious to hear about Superman's flaws and character arcs now, although I'm sure it is either difficult to nail down due to the multiple writers over the years and the changing values as society has changed with the writers, or easy to cherry pick for the same reasons.

Everyone was pulling power out of their ass.
Especially Android 17 who is suddenly beyond Super Saiyan God due to occasionally stomping poachers.

I know this is bait but a brick like supes will never have a powerset relevant enough to be in the same league as the big boys, it's fanboys that drag supes name through the mud.

>although I'm sure it is either difficult to nail down due to the multiple writers over the years and the changing values as society has changed with the writers, or easy to cherry pick for the same reasons.
Though not to the extent of Superman, Goku’s character is just as likely to subject to minor changes under different people.
Anime Goku was more heroic compared to the manga version. This was upped in the English dubs.
In Super, Goku was brought back to his more selfish and childlike manga self while the English dub tried to strike a balance between the two personalities.
It’s actually kind of interesting.

I was directly references works like Peace on Earth which show why he can't solve big society level problems as a strawman handwave for why Superman has relatively little impact on the world or even his own city.

What impact does the Fantastic Four have in the world? Or Thor? Or any hero?

Why only Superman is subject to this kind of criticism, when he has done more than all the others?

You literally get stamina back faster while getting your ass beat in Xenoverse. Checks out. Trade that HP for Stamina, niggah.

What is then? Not him btw.

>What impact does the Fantastic Four have in the world?
Depends on what world you’re talking about.
Alternate versions of Reed Richards have actually impacted the world tremendously.

Alternative versions of Superman have done the same, so what?

Yeah, what's so compelling about a character that can do anything while constantly be a symbol for good? Nothing interesting about that. Nothing interesting in how he can does a shit load of things while retaining a pure heart as he spends his days in the guise of one of us? Why would that ever be so compelling? Who'd want to read anyting about this figure's search for truth and justice in his own way to make the world seem a bit better? Why would anyone care about a character like that? Yeah, a character like Batman isn't overpowered or anything -- he just spat kryptonite gum at Superman and defeated him easily is all, then continually defeats in every other piece of media from video games to the movies. No, Superman should be more like GOKU, the character who's flawed yet like because he's so relatable in how he abandons his family all the time and eats a lot while fighting. And he struggles alright -- struggles with the big bad villain and whatnot who's gonna go into his over 9000 forms and take over 9000 episodes to kill in a series where death often has no consequence.

Look, I'm not trying to trash on DBZ or anything, but honestly, this argument is shit. The reason why people like GOku more is because of the A to B nature of the DB franchise where most of everything is goal-oriented. Superman can be too, but most often than not, it's about this thing willingly becoming one of us to save the world who (either through his own naievety or by some inherent greater calling) obsesses over truth and justice, always trying to uphold them. Superman deals with philosophy. Superman's the Jesus to Dragonball's Budha, Superman's the Greek Legends and Dragonball's the Eastern Myths. Dragonball is much more flashy and fun, Superman is serious and fun.

To say Goku is better than Superman because one has flaws is a sure-fire way to know that one does not understand Superman at all. The two are close opposites.

Because Superman is portrayed as someone much more connected and compassionate to the people of Earth compared to someone like Thor. And Marvel as a whole has their heroes have a major impact on society like with the mutants.

Yeah but at least 17 had that infinite energy thing since early on. Plus it's evident that Goku was holding back when they fought. Toppo was around super saiyan blue level and 17 couldn't even scratch him without Frieza's help

With Vegeta it was pretty much "Muh Cabba Muh Bulma I'm so much stronger now" even though he was already on a power of friendship amp from 2 minutes before.

>perfect
define perfect

i saw someone on a fb group say the only tolerable superman is bvs because he's the darkest he's ever seen him. so i mentioned i don't mind him taking a lighter tone, considering his power set and contrasting to batman, where it becomes pointless to compete for darkest personality. at which point they repeated darker is better.

>And Marvel as a whole has their heroes have a major impact on society
All heroes are limited to New Gork City = MAJOR impact in society.

The Legion only exists due to Superman's impact in society.

I once read someone say that Goku is a better character than Superman because while Superman's powers are essentially inherited and thus unearned, Goku had to train to get where he was and actually master the art of fighting to become one of the most powerful people in the universe.

Am I just misremembering what DBZ was like when I watched it as a kid? Because even back then the message of the show was "You can be as badass a fighter as you want, but if you're not a Super Saiyan, then at best you're either gonna be one of the dramatic deaths used to heighten the stakes of a fight, or you're gonna be part of the canon fodder brigade used to show how powerful the villain of the arc is". Goku is powerful simply by virtue of the fact that he is a Saiyan, Krillen could train all day, every day, every week, every year, and he would never get even a tenth as strong as Goku was, simply because he isn't a Sayain while Goku is.

>Vegeta pulling a power up out of his ass and beating Hakaishin Toppo was the biggest bullshit.

Welcome to fucking Dragon Ball you cunt. They've been pulling this shit since King Piccolo and Karin just happening to have special Water you can drink at become 10x stronger. You can't cry about ass pulls now

>Especially Android 17 who is suddenly beyond Super Saiyan God

He's not. 17 hasn't shown that he's beyond God. He couldn't even scratch Toppo. 17 just had the sense to use his infinite energy to his advantage and try to run down the clock

not even going to give you a (you)

this is pretty bad bait

>Goku had to train to get where he was and actually master the art of fighting to become one of the most powerful people in the universe.

Goku already knew how to fight before dragon Ball even begin. Roshi doesn't once teach him any martial arts because he and Krillin already know it, so they focus on conditioning their bodies. I don't think you see Goku ever get any actual fighting training until he reaches the look out and that's filler

DC answers the “why don’t superhumans change the world” question by putting all the changes in the future, something Marvel has never done.

It is canon that Superman and friends guide humanity to a Star Trek utopia in the Legion and then a post scarcity utopia in DC 1 million.

Superman does change the world, it just takes some time.

Has Marvel even shown a future where the world isn't shit?

>Yeah but at least 17 had that infinite energy thing since early on.

That means jack-shit when we saw how it faired him against Piccolo and Cell's first form. Now after years of doing nothing he'd stomp Kid Buu in a few minutes. In fact the only reason he's even relevant is simply because some backstage producer liked him.

>Toppo was around super saiyan blue level

He took on Blue+Kaioken and kept on trucking, the fact that 17 took him head on and stayed alive for even a moment is bullshit enough, but he even went head to head against God Toppo and while he didn't do much he held his own for a long ass time and faired better than the Lizard did. He even contended in a Ki-Battle with him and held up nicely.

>With Vegeta it was pretty much "Muh Cabba Muh Bulma I'm so much stronger now" even though he was already on a power of friendship amp from 2 minutes before.

Oh wow, someone getting a power up in a shonen through emotional motivations, that's almost unheard of. Goku's "Muh Krillin" and Gohan's "Muh Rage", sure as hell don't come to mind. Honestly I could give Vegeta the slide, fag has been training for it and has been desperately trying to get some new power up.

>same league as the big boys
>one of the most lucrative IPs on Earth with several comics video games and movies

What did user mean by this?

Goku doesn't know martial arts in his first tournament after training with Roshi. He's just really fast and strong. He faces an expert normie fighter who points out that Goku's fighting stance is arbitrary and full of openings. It is actually arguable who actually taught him martial arts or if he is just a savant at it.

>He's not. 17 hasn't shown that he's beyond God.

That's retarded Super Saiyan God lost out against Beerus God of Destruction. They're two different things.

>Martian Manhunter defeats Darksied and becomes the planet Mars and turns it into a peaceful shelter planet that gradually spreads Martian culture to migrants.

Based fucking J’onn

not same user but i never thought about it that way. marvel's future usually end with the world ending because of super powered beings. marvel citizens are utter trash. the heroes constantly try to do good and as soon as people get powers they end the world or the villains take over just to destroy everything for kicks.

>i want to get power
>wreck the world
>rule over wreckage
>???
>profit

Nope.

Really makes you think when every future in Marvel is dystopian shit.

Remember that the Avengers believed that the Justice League were actually tyrannical despots when they crossed over to the DCU because they literally could not comprehend a world where the general populace actually loved and adored their superheroes.

The idea is meant to be that Toppo's transformation mirrors Majn Vegeta, since he let go of his ideals in order to gain power. Vegeta beat him in the way he did to symbolize that he has risen above that mentality.

>People who say they love Dragon Ball Z but haven't watched the original DB.

I get the dub is old and shitty, but it really does form an important foundational basis for the characters. Particularly Goku, but all of them grow in some important fashion. Goku himself has a far more complex mentality than is called to attention than in Z or Super thanks to Toriyama's SHOW NOT TELL storytelling style. He takes the saying to a more extreme extent than most, and opinion of characters about other characters is never to be taken on 100% faith.

I feel like this is unfair. It's been pointed out for a while that Vegeta SHOULD have more raw power than Goku, but his shitty way of thinking holds him back. Vegeta coming to terms with himself and finally letting it all loose feels appropriate.

We're also finally rounding back where Goku and Vegeta originally stood as rivals back when Vegeta and Nappa first came to earth. Goku has less power but is a clever fighter with tons of techniques. Vegeta has the edge in sheer power and brutality. It's no longer THE GOKU SHOW. Literally what is there to complain about?

But he didn't though.
It clearly showed it was the same move he did to Majin Buu that he killed himself with.
He always had the attack, he just never did it cause of the threat of dying from it.

they treat people with mutations that are just deformities and not practical powers the worst. that's how cruel the marvel citizens are. if you mutate at puberty or are born a mutant with shitty skin, you're lynched. but if you can destroy the world but look human you're a celebrity.

not to mention that when people do get superpowers in the future, the shittiest powered normies are usually the biggest dicks, like people with a tail and funky eyes will cause more evil than someone with super strength.

>Inspired the Legion of Superheroes and other heroes of the future
>Inspired the city of Metropolis to stop being a-holes who wanted a handout to worship and looked down on others
>Gave hope to several terminal children groups by visiting with them
>Kept Kryptonian culture alive by protecting and resurrecting the bottled city of Kandor
>Has talked down at least two jumpers from committing suicide
>Convinced Hitman that not all superheroes are twats

>Never changed the world in universe
What you want from him? To out the world in a bottle?

It was just Vegeta blowing out every ounce of power he had to throw the fag out. It's one of the things that actually makes sense and is consistent in this series.

I'm not complaining. I enjoyed Vegeta knocking out Toppo and his new form but I'm also OK with knowing the Goku will be the one to defeat Jiren. Dragon Ball is the Goku show and there's nothing wrong with that

And then they show him as SSB2 in the preview for the next episode. Stamina has been a real issue in the ToP since it doesn't mean anything

>Vegeta is able to overcome Hakai energy
>Hakai energy can destroy anything
>Except when it can't

Guess that's an argument the Goku side has lost in the vs threads

Didn't see the previews. But is he really back in it? Man that's pretty retarded if so.

When was the last time Goku showed any strategy in combat?
When he was using sneak attacks on Freiza since he didn't know how to sense energy?

Shortly after he became Supersaiyan and won by becoming stronger, not fighting tactics.
He didn't even beat the Androids or Cell. He merely trained to become stronger and looked to inspire Gohan to become stronger.
He then fought Majin Buu and fought him with the strategy of fusing to become stronger.

By the time Super Saiyan became a thing, that became the problem.

>>Hakai energy can destroy anything
>>Except when it can't
Literally every technique in the series is like this no matter how illogical it may seem. THat's just the power of Ki. Even the candy beam is defeated.

Fighters in Dragon Ball have always been shown to recover stamina fairly rapidly if allowed to rest. True fatigue seems to be a short term issue. That's why they press advantage while they can. Probably a ki thing, but from a MUH REALISM standpoint, people who are really in shape recover from being winded real fast. Just you're not going to go and take a knee in the middle of, say, a race or a boxing match.

Tournament of Power's structure theoretically allows for rests, but equally it allows for opportunistically picking off people who are wiped out.

Consider this. Any quantity of Hakai can only destroy an amount of matter/energy in proportion to how much Hakai was used. Just pour more ki in than there is hakai. It's not really rocket science.

Strategies don't sell merch baby.
Now transformations of the season, those can sell some toys.

Send them pics of Spawn or Evil Ernie or The Crow.

He's done a bunch of strats in the ToP with varying levels of success.

ToP?

Tournament of Plot-holes.

The problem was enemies Too Strong To Beat.

Freeza introduced the idea of a power gap SO LARGE that finesse in ki use was utterly meaningless as a concept. This was followed up by Androids that had far less of a power gap, but their 'infinite energy' made a fight among equals impossible. Either you were strong enough to simply stomp them or you were within range of them wearing you down over time. Then you get Cell. Cell did not have infinite energy nor a power gap so large that your power literally stopped working (unless you were krillin), but he could regen from nearly anything. You literally had to be so much power to the point of simply vaporizing him. Then Buu comes and ups even THAT. An opponent where even doing harm is a meaningless quantity. So now you have to be so powerful, compared to the enemy, that suppressing them indefinitely is an option.

Freeza was iconic and shaped how people thought of Dragon Ball as a whole, but as with all such things it was also the harbinger of the downward spiral.

The real problem is two fold.

1. Fights are only ever solved by force. In comics if you go up against a Doomsday, no problem. You just outthink or outplot them. But when every single thing comes down to a big one on one fight its pretty shit.

2. Everyone more or less has the same exact powerset barring a few extra moves here and there.

Imagine a series of nothing but Superman fighting Phantom Zone criminals or Flash fighting Zooms. That's what Dragon Ball is.

People generally don't like Superman though. He'd be even more irrelevant by now if they weren't constantly pairing him with batman to force people to pay attention to him

Majority of fights in Dragon Ball are not resolved by force alone, and by Dragon Ball I mean you fucks need to go read/watch what happened before Raditz lands. Goku must come in range for feasibly defeating his opponent in these cases, but he's usually still edged out in power by the true boss fights. So he has to resort to a combination of guts and being clever to win. Freeza is the break point where this stops being true. Even against Vegeta, Goku was the one that was outclassed in raw strength.

Also, don't get confused by midbosses posed in to place to use as a measuring stick. Cases like Tao Pai Pai bodying Goku then getting bodied by Goku once he gets stronger are just showcase moments. Ginyu Force is another such moment except with Vegata and Gohan as stand in comparisons for Goku.

>Do you really think people like Batman because he has gadgets and no powers?
I think people like Batman because faggotry is rampant.
Actually no, that's unfair. I came to a realization as to why Batman is preferred over Superman, and it's actually because he's got APPEARANCE of being attainable, but has a ton of built in excuses. Heroes are aspirational, and they're supposed to inspire people to do the right thing, and you'd think with a guy like Batman since he has no powers would be that, but no, people read him and go
"I can't be like Batman, I don't have those money and resources. I can't be like Batman, I haven't trained for years. I can't be like Batman ,I haven't studied that hard. I can't be like Batman, my parents aren't dead."
And that's way Superman pisses off so many people. Because he doesn't have a bunch of reasons to keep him from doing the right thing. And moreover, when you read his comics, again and again, they show that even if he loses his powers, even if he'd never had them to begin with, he'd still be out there every day fighting the good fight. Constantly his book says "Good people get involved. They do what they can. ANYONE can be a Superman if they're just a good person that looks out for others."
If Bruce Wayne's parents never get shot he just ends up another rich asshole. If Clark is born a regular human, he's still a good man that tries to expose the truth and help others.
And that shames people that want excuses of money or training or a one in a billion lucky radioactive spider or needing a motivating tragedy to hide behind.
Superman says "Get off your ass and get involved." People that don't want to do that are going to hate him for it.

>What impact does the Fantastic Four have in the world?
This one is especially bad because one comic established that Reed literally gets paid NOT to improve the world.
Like, a bunch of different industries pay him not to file patents that would put them out of business.

Batman is popular due to the Batman gambit that used to force the writers to be better. Him being prepared during the second encounter often leads to clever endings. Modern writers just try to get by with the cool costume and shock value alone.

You couldn't really stratagize against Buu due to there being way too many unknowns about how he thinks or his abilities. Piccolo's plan to trap him forever in the Time Chamber would have worked but they didn't know he could just brute force his way out. They never figured later that Buu could do his own planning and stratagy as he goaded and stalled long enough to bait the kids into fusing again so could eat Gotenks and Piccolo then later goaded Gohan along so he could absorb him too.

>same league as the big boys

Popularity is not the same as having the best powerset

>one of the most lucrative IPs on Earth with several comics video games and movies
Sure, between DC and Marvel, at least you didn't go for the one of the biggest Superman fallacies, comparing supes name with actual brands that make money, supes isn't making numbers worth of putting him in a pedestal, and every new movie makes more money than supes last couple of movies.