What went wrong?

What went wrong?

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Relying on controversy to sell.

LOL DRUMPH

thats what went wrong.

Did whoever make this banner even know what the plot was?

>it was mediocre
>it was after repeated events that burned everyone out
The only real highlight was Pymtron's bit.

wasn't actually a secret empire

A plot promising political intrigue turned into a hunt to find all the Sacred Jewel shards.

Was secret invasion any good?

No!

How hard they back-peddled.
Weren't the "Real Steve" scenes a last minute addition?

People didn't buy out of sheer hatred like Marvel thought they would. Most just stopped giving a fuck.

>promote the new thing with a lifeless lineup of random characters
Why does Marvel so this so much?

Presumably. The subplot had a different artist, the art seemed rushed coupled with the delays, not to mention Sam getting his big moment as Captain America only to unceremoniously quit afterwards.
Seems like Spencer wanted Hydra Cap to be permanent so Sam could be the REAL Captain America.

Why Cassaday why!

clearly written by committee
too many side series
bad art theming on the main event

The dystopian stuff is a diamond dozen. Should have went smaller- what made the Steve Rogers book good was the tense build up and clandestine Will they find out? stuff. Secret Empire should have only been about heros starting to catch on as Cap and Hydra launched their coup. Not just another- Its the near future and __ rules.

Nothing like character assassinating one of your heroes at what is possibly the height of his popularity in history. Especially when it's used in a hamfisted way to destroy everything he's ever stood for in an allegory for a shitty and maligned political figure.

No person who goes and watches Captain America in the movie theaters and has just bought a backpack, hat, and t-shirt and toys of the character wants to pick up a comic book where he nukes Las Vegas from orbit and kills his friends.

Just like no one wants to try to get into comics after seeing Avengers in theaters and get female Thor, female Iron Man, and Asian Hulk. Books don't have to have synergy or maintain the status quo all the time, but why didn't anyone in marketing stand up and say "hey guys, you realize we have the most brand equity we've ever had in history, right? Why don't we tell some accessible stories to create long term fans of the medium?"

Blah.

Boooring. Its comics, it's its own thing apart from flick synergy. Body swap plots are as old as the medium and a fun change of pace for a few months and all the feigned outrage and drama is corny.

Nah, like AXIS it was like a somewhat interesting concept intended for a single arc in an ongoing, blown up into an event because Marvel decided after Civil War everything has to be an event.

Spencer wrote this before Trump won and really before the election heated up. It just released at an oddly appropriate time

For a few months? Sure, whatever. But the writers were telling us that this was the OG Cap. That he was going to be this way from now on. Get used to Sam Wilson, because he's taking over the mantle!

Problem is, Sam was still just "Falcon but with some different colors and a shield." At least Bucky's time as Cap was well done and gave us a reason to care.

Sure, "it's comics," but let's be honest here - comics are a business. If the characters don't match their most popular incarnations at least tangentially, they're not going to succeed unless you've spent time crafting a storyline that really suits the replacements.

The extra killer to it all is how inconsistent the characterization was. Cap would go from an ideologue who thought he was doing the right thing to full on cackling supervillain in the next issue or one-off, which just made it more and more boring to read. Blowing up all of Las Vegas was ridiculous. Magically wishing back the original Steve and having him solve the problem in 8 pages was just as poor.

um actually it ruled

/thread

If you go out of your way to offend every person imaginable, don't go crying when you don't have an audience.

A whole bunch of shit that individually wouldn't have mattered much, but added up to a pretty big deal.

>the event/renumbering cycle had really worn out its welcome, especially after the turd that was Civil War 2
>predatory practices by Marvel, including variant ratios and overshipping, pissed off retailers
>evil Cap was finally a controversy too far for readers
>a whole lot of fuckin' nothing happening between the first and last issues

So why did they keep Nazi Cap in the end?

The event needed everything swept under the rug and not leave loose ends lying around.

Cap's boner for like due process in the courts and shit.

a matter of time til he's some color Skull I imagine

I didnt have any problem with Secret Empire's plot, but I think the narration was bad.
A lot of telling what was happening without showing it, "and then, we thought we had lost all hope, but...."
that kind of stuff
with splash pages of superheroes fighting that are actually boring and bad and nonsensical compared to actual superhero fights. It's just groups of people with their mouths open running or flying against each other,

Carol wasn't murdered?

Well that and because they really fucked up with the "that's the real Cap being a nazi" bullshit.

>The extra killer to it all is how inconsistent the characterization was. Cap would go from an ideologue who thought he was doing the right thing to full on cackling supervillain in the next issue or one-off, which just made it more and more boring to read. Blowing up all of Las Vegas was ridiculous. Magically wishing back the original Steve and having him solve the problem in 8 pages was just as poor.

I'd add to this:

Having Las Vegas remain the destroyed and Black Widow still remaining dead to teach some kind of "lesson" which doesn't make any sense in context is also fucking poor, no matter how much bullshit spin everyone at Marvel was trying to pull on it.

Well all done in anticipation that events wouldn't unfold like they did like the "Loki for Prez" run.

Which is a damn shame as I'd have loved to have seen him in the Oval Office actually trying to be a proper official at least for a while. Being in charge of Team America in some kooky G.I. Joe styled adventure for a run or two.

No it didn't.

The idea was good but you know... It was written by Bendis.

>The idea was good but you know... It was written by Bendis.
Also, much like Secret Wars, it was a case study in wasted potential going forward.

Lol now I remember that bullshit. It was all the loli reality warpers fault and yet she's the one telling the others they need to learn their lessons?

No.
If an event is so bad you think the nazis are the cooler guys in the book by accident, you know you do something wrong.

Miles didn't have the balls to kill Cap.
Maybe then he would at least have something iconic to his name

Reader apathy and a a lot of blatant behind-the-scenes revisions which gave the story a lot of thematic and moral contradictions:

>'Creeping fascism is bad and can happen anywhere!" Except it only happens here because the bad guys literally had to rewrite reality in order to make it work
>We've been too reliant on Steve Rogers to solve our problems, it's time we stepped up and cleaned up after our own messes! Except let's all stand back and let Steve Rogers solve everything for us.
>We've got to accept our mistakes and let them keep us grounded and in check! Oh, but the reality-warping little girl who literally instigated this entire mess and caused all of these deaths and can easily reverse them? She won't do anything to fix it, because apparently that was our fault

But then everyone would know Miles as "that black kid who killed Captain America".

The X-men tie-in mini was good.

The picture spells it out, it has someone front in center that never actually has any major role or fundamental tie to the event. Promoting Spidey for shit he's not even going to be a key role in is the definition of disappointing cruelty.

I read SE until the punisher appeared then I dropped because of how nonsensical it was for fucking frank west to do what he was doing.
Also i loved that Cap BTFO everyone he was the best. felt sorry for Sam tho

>For a few months? Sure, whatever. But the writers were telling us that this was the OG Cap. That he was going to be this way from now on. Get used to Sam Wilson, because he's taking over the mantle!
That's exactly what they said about Spock. Geoff Johns said he had no idea who Nekron was at ComicCon just before Blackest Night. You're just a retard for expecting writers to out their big twist just because someone guessed it in an interview. Granted, Cap returning to normal wasn't exactly a huge surprise, but neither was Spencer lying about it.

it's insane how hard HYDRA Cap broke some people's brains

>The picture spells it out, it has someone front in center that never actually has any major role or fundamental tie to the event.
Secret Empire was the cause of Peter losing his company and basically undid the status quo for the last few years.

Also note that Steve is missing from the double-splash page of the victorious heroes near the end of the final issue, and the story ends on a child with a toy of Sam as Captain America.

Books can be revised while they release, assuming the artist is available. The Secret Empire event had a handful of artists involved. If they wanted to avoid the Trump subtext, they could have. But instead they doubled down.

Marvel banners always have minimal effort put in. It's a running joke at this point. Compare the last 5 Marvel banners to DC's Gary Frank Rebirth banner.

>Cap would go from an ideologue who thought he was doing the right thing to full on cackling supervillain in the next issue or one-off, which just made it more and more boring to read. Blowing up all of Las Vegas was ridiculous. Magically wishing back the original Steve and having him solve the problem in 8 pages was just as poor.

They put a lot of time into focusing on how conflicted Steve was about what he was doing, and on the Avengers arguing over whether they could save him or not.

And then they end the story by magically creating a good Captain America to fight the bad one. It's awful storytelling.

Better than being known as "that black Spider-Man nobody cares or know anything about"

i was saying from day 1 it was an obama critique

That's retarded. Marvel loves Obama.

It was funny as fuck, tho.
because it ended up fucking up marvel comics reputation too. during 4th July Marvel's twitter account posted Cap image and people replied "except you retards turned him into a fucking nazi"

>They put a lot of time into focusing on how conflicted Steve was about what he was doing
The issue is that he was completely one note. He hesitated regarding following Hydra's methods, then was talked into going along with it anyway in spite of feeling bad. It happened over and over again and just made him look weak willed.

>What went wrong?
Thanks IlluminatedAnon
1/2

2/2

You wouldn't happen to have a link would you? I'm having a hard time finding it.

A lot.

> Las Vegas is blown up. EDGY!

> Spencer thinks his Hydracap is interesting when he's actually boring as fuck. So deep!

> Thor's hammer chooses HydraCap because evil magic trick. So asspull!

> Barf saves the day, except instead of pulling a deus ex machina out of his ass, he pulls it out of his mouth. So innovative, Nick Spencer!

> Odinson supports Hydra Cap with little coercion. He's cool with fascism!

> Chthon apparently had such a huge hard on for Eliza that he followed Hydra for her. Hydra, who want to create rigid Order in the world. That totally makes sense!

> Chthon had a huge boner for a woman who easily got killed in an explosion. Its just the sort of thing he'd do!

> When Pymtron mentioned M Day, Chthon said nothing about it. Great writing, Nick Spencer!

> Odinson gives no fucks about Wanda being possessed by Chthon. What a hero!

They chickened out on their bad idea and made the story a pile of nothing.

Nazi Cap shock factor could only last so long too.

That art for one thing.

> Viv is written as a robot just like Mark Waid, completely missing the point of her character. Consistent!

> Spencer says that the heroes were defeated by Cap because they placed all their faith in him...then GoodCap appears and single-handedly saves the day...undermining the entire premise as stated by Spencer himself. Oroboros of storytelling!

> All the classic heroes are bad, while all the new diverse heroes are good. Spencer intended to emulate the Bendis tactic of shitting on classic heroes and replacing them with OCs or pet characters.

i got you
twitter.com/marvel/status/869221834696384513?lang=en

Thanks. I was thinking of adding it to the screencap collection in even if it might be too much.

the more proofs the better

I love these more than life, truly the only way to read Marvel crossovers.

I actually really enjoyed it. There was a lot going on and while not all of it hit the mark, you gotta admit Hydra Cap is a neat villain to have around now.

what was even the end goal of this event
civil war 2 had no point did SE just have no point?

Being Civil War 3 and still doing the Heroes vs Heroes 2006 circa because they think people care about this kinda os story

Presumably the goal of the event was to cement the legacy heroes as the primary heroes.

>you gotta admit Hydra Cap is a neat villain to have around now.

Not really? If he were "Cap, but loyal to Hydra" (the way a lot of people thought he was going to be during the lead-up to the event) instead of "full-on Nazi Cap" he'd have been a "neat villain". As it is I don't believe they had any idea of where to take the character.

William Burnside, the other evil Cap, is still around.

Yeah but Burnside went crazy because the process he got powers was flawed.

The implication I got from the leadup (and it seemed like everyone else did too who read it) was it was Captain America who believed in Hydra but wasn't all out Nazi, sort of like how Red Son Superman led the Soviet Union but didn't believe in Stalin's purging.

My point was that there already was literally an evil Cap running around, and he's even worked for HYDRA too.

>William Burnside
Wasn't he under the effect of mind control by Dr. Faustus?

But that's the inherent problem of the whole premise. You can't have "Cap but Hydra" because Steve is the very anti-thesis of Hydra, intentionally so. If it was the same person on the wrong side, Cap would've rebelled against them in less that a few issues because Cap has no loyalty to anybody but the Dream. If he sees something is corrupt, he isn't just going to ignore it or use it to his advantage, which is what you need to even write a story like this.

Do they though? The tagline they used for Secret Invasion, the event running during the 2008 election cycle, was "Embrace Change," a sinister take on Obama's signature slogan during that campaign. The status quo that followed, during the first half of Obama's first term, was Dark Reign, where Obama was shown to be easily bamboozled into letting supervillains take over. It's not surprising when you take in to account Isaac Perlmutter's political affiliation.

i can't look at ruffalo now without seeing the gif