What would Superman say if Batman gave up Justice for a quick power boost?

What would Superman say if Batman gave up Justice for a quick power boost?

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"That's not the Batman I know."

"Whoever you are, you are not Batman"

>What if Superman was an alien
Woow, real smooth Toriyama

Batman, you're better than this, now put the God throne powered by Green Lantern rings and Kirby Magic down.

This seems like Jiren is just being a pissy bitch.

He's not heroic unless his plan is to destroy Zeno and the gods.

>I thought you stood for something more, Bruce. I thought you were better than this. I thought you were better than me...

SAVE... MARTHA...

No one is "just" in this series.

Everyone (with a power level that matters) is either just a dumb fight junkie, a petulant asshole or so apathetic it makes no sense.

>"I'm dissaponted in you, Bruce. To think you would sacrifice your convictions like this... "

[After Batman is inevitably knocked out the ring like Toppo]

>"Becoming a New God wasn't worth it, Bruce. You lost something more than the match just now; something stronger than The Source. You lost your conviction."

no, user.
While in the manga Jiren is Superman, in the anime, Jiren is The Batman, dead parents, training and all.

>Implying Superman and the Justice League would be fighting in the tournament
>Not working out a way to save all the universes by stopping the supervillains running it in concert with the other entrants, like every time this plot happens in comicbooks

given it's "join the tournament or be REMOVED on the spot" I'm not sure how they could do it.

Zeno is smalltime.

No wonder he is so petty.

Yeah, except for the guy that OP was referring to. The dude whose whole existence was being an intergalactic superhero fighting for justice until he abandoned his ideals to gain the power of a destroyer god.

>join the tournament or be REMOVED on the spot
How can ANYONE not call Zeno and his 'gods' evil? They are like a bunch of lame manchildren, they kill billions of innocent beings on a whim or for their own amusement.

Everything about Super is a mistake.
At least GT didn't shit all over the setting quite so badly by changing the fundamental background of everything.
Actually this is like when Raditz showed up at the start of Z and everything began to reallu go downhill, but instead of "EVERYTHING IS ALIENS!" now its "EVERYTHING IS GODS (including the saiyans because what they really need is MORE powerups)!"

There are no superheroes in the dragonball franchise, because Toriyama cannot fundamentally understand how to make a character actually heroic. The closest thing you get is a bunch of tired repetitive super sentai jokes.

How is that abandoning his ideals though?

If he doesn't become strong enough to win this tournament then the universe he protects will be destroyed.

>tfw Jiren has no moves

He is more like Sasuke

Well, yes. Batman is Sasuke.

>What if Superman was an alien
superman is already an alien

we've got a thread about this before.

>still not getting the joke

...

>At least GT didn't shit all over the setting quite so badly by changing the fundamental background of everything.
GT Gohan became more useless than Post-Cell Pre-Ultimate Gohan.
GT Trunks and Goten are even bigger jokes than they already are.
GT Vegeta is a fraud that would resort to using outside means to acquire a quick and easy power up, aka SSJ4.
Majin Buu is a canon fodder.
Uub absorbed Majin Buu even a bigger fodder despite achieving Super Buu status. And overall more useless due to the lack of regeneration and magic.
Piccolo as useless as ever.
Krillin aged like a glass of milk that was left on the table for a week.
Dragonballs giving birth to evil dragons because making wishes with the Dragonballs is BAD!!!
Goku eloped with Shenron and abandons family again.

so any of those complaints listed rectified in super?

>The JLA are forced into doing X by Kanjar Ro/Dr. Destiny/TO Morrow

>They go behind the omnipotent enemy's back and defeats them with a keikaku

Nigga this is a basic bitch JLA plot. They'd wrap this up in five issues. Two if Morrison is writing.

>"Sooo you're still paying for take out right, Bruce?"

Batman getting knocked out of the ring is probably part of the keikaku.
>Oh no, I lost to the superpowered aliens. Hey do you guys mind if I wander around instead of just sitting and watching the matches.

"Your parents would be so proud"

According to my boy Red Mask, Batman is not about justice, is about vengeance, so if we go by that, Batman gave up on justice a long time ago. I also think thats why Batman likes Clark so much (no homo), his Superman persona is about justice, about protecting the innocent and being a beacon for those who have lost themselves in the shadows.

>How can ANYONE not call Zeno and his 'gods' evil?
Zeno is the fans of the series. Just watching things be cool, but if they don't like something or think it's boring they have the power to get it erased. It's a metaphor thing.

As if batman could handle Kirby magic

unless your talking about Jack Kirby in which case you'd be right.

To many universes. Somebodies gotta clean them up. Ribriannes universe was clearly a mistake. Their god seems more useless than beerus

>*like every time this plot happens PROPERLY in comicbooks
Hickman proved not everyone is capable of writing an obvious superhero story.

Most of them.

Trunks and Goten are still pointless along with Buu. Uub isn't around yet so that point is mute and there isn't a stupid consequence to using the dragon balls.

Because Hickman wasn't trying to write an obvious superhero story. His first three issues of New Avengers made them pretty clear user.

Can't punch the villain to save the day (Black Panther vs Black Swan, can't out smart the problem via comic-geniuses (Illuminati all give up after hearing about the incursions), and can't deus ex machina the problem (Infinity Gauntlet breaks after Cap's first use).

more of the stuff about krillin, gohan, piccolo, buu in super came out as giving fans hope only for the rug to be pulled under them.

Those guys were never going to be the stars. They've been secondary characters since the start of Z. Super at least brought them all back to the same prominence they had in Z unlike GT which just uses them as canon fodder if at all. They're all powerful, can hold their own, and improve with time. They actually serve a purpose to the plot and help Goku and Vegeta get to the end game.

This desu
Its just not his style, not what he likes to write
Plus Goki is theoretically to blame for alot of crime if you think about it
He could instant transmission crooks all day if he wanted, but instead he chooses to fuck around with farm equipment

it was a fairly dramatic moment of character development, that the strongest mortal in existence suddenly realizes that he is, in fact, alone, that no one can attain his level of strength, and thus there's really nothing left for him but disappointment

I'm not saying Jiren was well developed, or even makes sense, but this quote was not something I had a problem with

in fact I liked its simplicity and humanity, it seems like he's finally acting in character

sadly this will end with him being one of goku's happy followers, which means the real problem with the recent story was vegeta giving up: he's the only one who has never accepted goku's superiority

He deliberately made up deus ex machinas to stop them from using any superhero solutions to the problem. The fact he was using the Illuminati concept pretty much telegraphed he wasn't trying to write a decent superhero story. Actually, I don't think that batch of Marvel writers was capable of it to begin with.

>he's the only one who has never accepted goku's superiority
He did, at the Buu saga, tho

I mean, it's obvious they could just win and use their wish with the super dragon balls to bring everyone back.

What would be your Universe 52 team?

>Superman
>Wonder Woman
>Flash
>Martian Manhunter (he and Piccolo face off specifically)
>Captain Marvel
>Orion
>Big Barda
>Etrigan
>Plastic Man
>The Spectre

so still like GT except now with more punching and hitting?

Haven't been watching. Does Jiren have a character yet?

this is the retarded shit that you Sup Forumsfags peddle?

So much this. I finally sat down and watched Super recently and I don't get why everyone's hating on it. The secondary characters all play a decent role (except Yamcha) and the arcs have been set up so that people other than Goku and Vegeta have meaningful victories, unlike Z where they just kinda pad out time for Goku to get to the next SSJ form or whatever.

I mean it's not kino or anything but I'm actually enjoying it a bit especially since it feels more like the original Dragon Ball with all the callbacks and the focus on actual martial arts over omega beam attacks (though there's still plenty of those as well)

I know this is a meme, but Jiren is not even remotely close to Superman.

>Frieza retroactively was made to blow up Vegeta because Beerus told him to

I fucking HATE retcons.

Foolish little brother.

>people other than Goku and Vegeta have meaningful victories

Aside from the Tournament of Power, I cannot recall a single instance of this. Piccolo and Buu are written out of the U6 Tournament in a contrived fashion, and the Black Arc ends with no one winning because Toriyama thought a literal Deus Ex Machina win button was a good idea.

I agree with a number of these things, and I'd like to add that Piccolo is perma-killed in a series where death is cheap.

That said, the evil Dragon Balls thing doesn't bother me so much as the massive retcons this requires. Why the fuck would Old Kai know about the Shadow Dragons and never tell anyone? Why would the NAMEKIANS not know about the Shadow Dragons?

Goku gets four/five new powerups since this crap started.

Vegeta gets two.

Freiza gets one but a particularly obnoxious one.

The repeated tournaments are terrible and basically drawn out pointless filler.
The so called 'decent roles' the other fighters have had are anything but, no different to when someone like Gotenks or Gohan would show up stronger for a bit with a new form before being written out so Goku can win at the end.

Though its weird that Super shills for 17 so much, since GT did the same thing.

It doesn't feel like dragonball at all, since Dragonball didn't have petulant mass-murderers as cast members we were supposed to consider amusing.
And it still cares more for 'raising the stakes' in such a cheap and pointless manner like Z but pushed even HARDER, now not just planets are being destroyed but entire universes!!... but it doesn't really matter because they are underdeveloped and the writers haven't given you a reason to care about any of this.
Jiren is strong just because they need an antagonist with a power level so much bigger than everyone else in the tournament.

Super fanboys are the worst, this is literally milking the series so hard its reached fanfic-tier. None of the writers working on the franchise have any talent.

That was some of the worst, basically George Lucas level.

Hell Toriyama even added midichlorians to the saiyans, likely after happening to watch the Phantom Menace. The senile old hack.
Could literally have a character ask "WHAT DOES THE SCOUTER SAY ABOUT HIS S-CELL COUNT?!"

>all those hakai blasts were strategically shot to cause a chain reaction that would force all the gods to deal with the void collapsing on itself
>the tournament is stopped
>buying cyborg enough time to open massive portals to steal the super dragon balls and make a wish
>all while rip hunter and booster gold use time travel and the miracle machine to transport the past versions of all the deleted universes to the present time
>it turns out the void is next to the source wall and all the gods and angels and zenos collide and become trapped in them

And that's how the DC universe saved everyone.

I feel like Toyotaro is trying to halfway salvage some ideas, but even the manga is mediocre.

>That was some of the worst, basically George Lucas level.

Every time you rewatch the Saiyan and Namek Arcs of Dragon Ball Z, remember that everything that happened is because Beerus was assblasted about pudding or comfortable chairs or some bullshit.

>toriyama says dragonball evolution is shit (he's right)
>proceeds to make a shitty series to show how it's done

At this point I think Toriyama is purposely coming up with stupid ideas and seeing how far he can take it before people get wise to it.

No.

On this, I do agree. They tried to make everything Beerus' fault and yet it gets completely ignored later on. Shouldn't Vegeta be fucking pissed that Beerus ordered the destruction of his home planet, for example?

Gohan has been getting good wins and developing more as a character, and even Kuririn had some decent development before ToP in the totally not Star Wars forest of phantoms.

The ending of the Black Arc kinda blew, yea, but it was still Trunks who struck the killing blow before edgelord Zamasu went all "I'mma turn myself into the universe" on us.

It's an enjoyable show, in my opinion. Like I said it's not high quality and it probably isn't very good, but I liked it. Dragon Ball is still a way better show, though.

...Damn.

The Black Arc was toxic waste, completly overrules the sense of triumph of Trunks defeating his androids and cell in Z since his whole universe gets wiped out anyway, all because of some dumb god shit that was ripped off wholesale from AF.

They should never have continued the series in the first place after it had an actual conclusion.

Funny, I did that in a fanfic recently.
archiveofourown
.org
/works/13613712

>completely ignored later on
Not even just ignored.
Other characters are always forced to walk on eggshells around beerus in fear of randomly setting him off over some unimportant shit and him deciding to slaughter their loved ones/species, and the writers expect us to find this hilarious.
Its some messed-up beaten spouse shit.

I can't help but feel that the Black Arc was Toriyama's way to express his disdain over the multitudes of edgelord grimdark DBZ fan works. Much like early Beerus and Zen-Oh feel like him expressing his sentiments about his fans (Either gluttonous consumers that go nuts and throw tantrums if they can't consume more or childish coddled children that just erase whatever they don't like). Perhaps I'm giving Toriyama way too much credit, but I look at Super as less of a love letter to the fans and more like hate mail.

*Caulifa's universe was clearly a mistake

FTFY

But the guy that is now Toriyama's apprentice was the one that created the character Black took inspiration from.

>Perhaps I'm giving Toriyama way too much credit
The answer to this is pretty much always "Yes"

U6 would be fine if it had completely different races instead of hamfistedly shoehorning in more Saiyans and another Frieza.

Except the tournament was Goku's idea. The universes were going to be erased anyway due to low mortal level. Goku was like "Fighting, yeah!" and the Zenos were like "YEAH!" and the grand priest was like eh, whatever, sure, your universe was going to be destroyed so I guess we could hold a tournament and one of them gets to live. Keeps the brats out of my hair for a few hours.

They are barely even saiyans, they have twig limbs, oversized heads and no tails.

Literally just an excuse to force more supersaiyans into the show to shill to the lowest denominator that actually jacks thesmelves to saiyan-wank.

That doesn't change the fact Zenos was going to commit multiversal genocide just cuz. like he has before.

None of that is part of the fundemental background except from the evil dragons, they just made the characters weaker or act OOC. Compared to the multiverse and the gods that shit is nothing.

Would be nice if they explained anything at all about what mortal level actually is. Instead we're two episodes away from the end of the series and just getting Jiren's tragic backstory at the last minute because....why, exactly? There's no room to grow from here and seeing as this is supposed to be the final arc of Dragon Ball (hopefully) why give him the tacked on generic backstory at all? He was just fine as "Goku needs a new obstacle let's give him a last boss" but now we have something that will never get any satisfactory resolution beyond "Oh Goku you have defeated me now I see the power of trust and friendship and shit"
Anyways, mortal level. They never really elaborate on it or why it matters, so now we're two episodes from the end and there still isn't an explanation as to why all these universes had to be erased in the first place except for the hell of it, and you know that Goku is gonna use the Super Dragon Balls to wish all the universes back anyways so there's not going to be any real consequences. Which is why I try to just enjoy the show as a mindless battle show because when you actually try to analyze it it all just falls down like a house of cards.

>low mortal level
What a meaningless distinction.

The fights themselves are also shit though. You might as well claim that while watching Naruto.

Batman has quit the League for less.
Depends on the source of power boost and any potential catches/drawbacks.

Mortal level is measured on a scale of "Some of you ningens are alright. Don't come to the World of the Void tomorrow" to "NINGENS REEEEEEE".

>being this low-test

It's not about quiting the league.

It's about sacrificing his sense of Justice

>implying that Batman attempting to beat Zeno is not the reason he accepted becoming a God.

There is no justice in their setting, when the gods that control it are murderous manchildren that snuff entire galaxies or even universes for kicks. They are basically living in a cosmic-horror universe with a candy-flavored paint scheme.

Reword that and say it in Batman's voice and that's basically what his justification would be.

I've never seen Naruto DESU, read some of the manga ages ago back when Naruto was just learning Rasengan and Sasuke's brother was starting to make appearances. I've never really cared all that much about it. Same with Dragon Ball Super, I didn't care about seeing it but it seems like every other day someone's posting about Jiren here and the show's almost over so I figured what the hell, might as well see it. To be honest I don't really see how Jiren is a Superman expy, he feels more like a bastardization of All Might who is himself a Superman expy. All that shit the Pride Troopers spout about Justice is just taglines to illustrate personality without actually showing any, really, it's not like they are anywhere near the same as the League. They didn't even keep the analogues right, Jiren is supposed to be an analogue for Superman and Dyspo is Flash, but Toppo doesn't really have any sort of equivalent (Martian Manhunter, because he's the leader? But no, J'onn isn't anything like Toppo at all) and then you have Kunshi and that one woman who are kinda Spider-Man and kinda Invisible Woman, not even DC characters.

Toriyama seems unable (or unwilling) to write an antagonist who isn't a smug asshole in love with their own power.

>Shouldn't Vegeta be fucking pissed that Beerus ordered the destruction of his home planet, for example?
Even Vegeta admits that Saiyans as a race are raging assholes. Anything stronger than 99% of saiyans killing them off is probably understandable in his book. Like he's probably thinking, it's not right, but I wouldn't put up with that shit either.

This logic doesn't work in a world where Vegeta is also always pissed off with Frieza for destroying Planet Vegeta and making Saiyans into his own crew of planet conqueror subcontractors.

Bump

Beerus is a raging asshole that has killed off more people than the saiyans did combined by himself

Yes, but in Vegeta's book, Beerus is strong enough to pull it off. Freiza, despite power wank and transformations, Vegeta never respected like that.

I actually kind of like Beerus, but Toriyama did him too big.

He's an asshole that destroys entire planets for petty reasons, but gets no comeuppance due to being the strongest. Also, he's retroactively one of the most important people in the universe to the point that everyone sucks his dick, even Frieza.

ALSO, he has a story-breaker power that would let him fix any issue in-universe, requiring coming up with reasons to prevent him from getting involved in plots while also involving him in every plot after his introduction.

He basically says "fuck this stupid shit all that matters is being the strongest so that you can force people to be orderly and not commit crimes"

Vegeta has never respected Beerus you faggot, just like back with Freiza the only reason he kow-tows to him is because he's outmatched.

If he could have killed the cat on Earth when he struck Vegeta's wife he would have, because unlike with Goku he actually loves his family as more than some people who live in his house.

That sounds like Toppo more than Jiren.

Isn't that basically Jiren?

He's only important because he's a faggot-ass Grey with the highest power-level for no adequately explained reason.
He's got none of Superman's heart or emotion.

Yeah Jiren's fucking awful.

youtu.be/uPwVuC3YOrc

So is Goku, an awful MC that keeps getting handed new powerups and transformations solely due to being the MC, what would you expect from Akira Toriyama?

If anything Jiren is Doomsday, less of a character and more of a walking plot-bomb existing simply to challenge the MC by no-selling everything.

>final battle of the Tournament of Power that was hyped for months
>wind up getting to it
>"Whoa, Goku's using a new power."
>"lol Jiren was holding back"
>"Whoa, Goku is using the Spirit Bomb."
>"lol Jiren was holding back"
>"Whoa, Goku has Ultra Instinct."
>"lol Jiren was holding back"
>"Whoa, Goku got all of his power back."
>"lol Jiren was holding back"
>"Whoa, Goku's using strategy."
>"lol Jiren was holding back"
>"Whoa, Goku's got Ultra Instinct again."
>"lol Jiren was holding back"

This is the most boring shonen fight in the history of anything. Just fucking end it already.