Multiverse questions

I’m a little confused how Darkseid works.

In the DC multiverse there are countless versions of Superman, Batman, Jimmy Olsen, Muhammad Ali and there’s probably several versions of myself shitposting on DC’s Sup Forums equivalent.

My understanding is that there is ONE version of Darkseid, and whenever he appears on a different Earth, it’s an avatar of him, basically like a video game character the “real” one can control, and he’s got a version of himself in all universes. Is this correct?

Does the same apply for old gods like Zeus? What does that mean for their children? Are the different versions of Orion and Kalibak also being controlled by a greater version of them self? What about Wonder Woman, she’s Zeus’s daughter after all.

Also, do the Guardian’s exist on Earth 2?

I understand that on Earth 2 there is a black Superman. Should we assume that in most universes he died when Krypton exploded?

Other urls found in this thread:

dc.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Gods
twitter.com/AnonBabble

there's no real order, back when morrison was making the dc universe make sense with several multiverses etc there was an attempt to make it work, but since Johns is WB's pet his vision of the multiverse is the current one, he is casual friendly so all those hard questions are left unanswered and work this way: all the histories that johns like or sell tons of merch are canon, the rest doesnt matter

Also, is there a Barry Allen on Earth 2 who just never got exposed to the speed force?

A Hal Jordan who never found a GL ring?

In Frank Millar’s Universe, there is an evil kryptonian named Baal. Could he still exist inside the bottle of Kandor in other universes?

Is it correct that at least one DC/Marvel crossover is, or was, canon to both universes for a while? Does Access still exist?

cant remember
yes
yes
yes apparently thats canon

If the New 52 is the result of Dr.Manhattan messing with things, does that mean he took the original Alan Scott, erased his kids, made him younger and... turned him gay?

For the Old Gods? No. They are very weak compared to the monstrous beings of power that Darkseid and Izaya are.

>Implying the writers would be in any way concerned about consitency or internal logic
Literal "A wizard did it" tier

Doc Dong can be a real dick at times

Are there multiple versions of Darkseid, or just one?

In Multiversity, there's a line by the New Gods referring to the versions of them and Darkseid in the 52 worlds as "multiple emanations" and "shattered fragments," so the versions of the New Gods and Darkseid that people in the Orrery see and encounter are both avatars and bits and pieces of the "true God" that sits/dwells in the Sphere of the Gods.

Or that was what it was when Morrison was still around.

Who the fuck knows what it is now.

I just found out that black Superman in Earth-2 is called Val-Zod. Did Zod impregnate a black chick in that universe?

>My understanding is that there is ONE version of Darkseid, and whenever he appears on a different Earth, it’s an avatar of him, basically like a video game character the “real” one can control, and he’s got a version of himself in all universes. Is this correct?
Pretty much, although Multiversity implied that his avatars are currently disorganized.

>Does the same apply for old gods like Zeus?
No.

>Also, do the Guardian’s exist on Earth 2?
Oa is actually a really iffy point for the multiverse/hypertime since at one point it was declared to be some kind of space/time singularity.

>Should we assume that in most universes he died when Krypton exploded?
He's a Zod so he'd only potentially exist in universes where Zod exists and a Zod had a black kid.

>Is it correct that at least one DC/Marvel crossover is, or was, canon to both universes for a while? Does Access still exist?
Yes, the Earth-One line takes place on Earth-1 which was hatched from Krona's cosmic egg

Probably not intentionally, it's been established that any fuckery with Earth-0 has a ripple effect on the multiverse (cf. Earth-2 JSI being deleted, Earth-3 going from a Crime Society to a Crime Syndicate, etc.)

>Muhammad Ali

We seem to be missing ours.

It is just to keep pleb writers from wasting Darkseid as an alien invader. Johns tried to one up Morrison with his JL, but Morrison retconned Johnseid in Multiversity.

>Morrison retconning Johns retconning Morrison

...hypercrisis?

So Hal Jordan was evil for a while because he was possessed by the yellow fear bug Paralax. Paralax is currently in the custody of the Guardians. However, during Convergsnce, Paralax-Hal was brought into the mix and hasn’t really been seen since. Does this mean there are now two Paralaxes, one contained by the Guardians and one controlling Hal?

>Does the same apply for old gods like Zeus? What does that mean for their children? Are the different versions of Orion and Kalibak also being controlled by a greater version of them self? What about Wonder Woman, she’s Zeus’s daughter after all.

Well, since the "Sphere of the Gods" thing applies to, well, Gods, imma guess that the various "greater concepts" of the old gods are busy running their avatars on different Earths like different toons on different servers.

Now, in only some of the Earths does Zeus' toon bump uglies with Hippolyta (if I recall correctly, it was Hercules and Hippolyta what made Wondy in Earth-1). So it's more like she's Zeus' toon's daughter on the Earth-0 server.

So if your toon on a particular server has kids with one of the NPCs, does that automatically create a kid of yours IRL?

Then again, maybe there's a Wonder Woman concept like that Superman Thought-Robot thing from Final Crisis, and the Wonder Women in the 52 worlds are a fragment or emanation of that idea, like Superman and his analogues are a fragment of the Superman idea.

HYPERCRISIS IS REAL

Convergence Parallax was native to New Earth
Canon Parallax is native to Earth-0
So there are two of them but they aren't in the same universe (or possibly even the same multiverse)

When New52 Superman and Post-Crisis Superman we’re merged into one being, do you think they felt the process was a little gay? Being merged into another man so intensely that your entire backstories weld together as one, then living the rest of your lives as a singular being is far more intimate than regular buttsex. It would have been less gay if they’d just sucked each other off right there.

Its never referenced that he's the son of zod or even related, i think zod is just a common kryptonian surname

But according to rebirth, it's always been one earth, the whole time...

I can get behind the idea that the gods of mythology are more “real” than comic book characters, and therefore exist on a higher plane of existsnce. I like the idea that DC’s Zeus is merely a fraction of a larger being, like a video game representation. But what does that mean for his family? Hera, Ares, Hades and Hercules are all playing the game on all the same servers with Zeus? Wonder Woman is an NPC child he created in the game, whereas his other Greek mythological children exist on a higher plane of existence with him?

Interestingly, this would mean that Zeus and his family are playing on the Marvel server as well.

Does this mean that Thor has avatars everywhere as well, and his character just happens to have the most prominence on the Marvel server? He’s invested a LOT of time hanging out with NPC’s.

Dr. Manhattan confirmed for Jean Grey.

Before or after their genocidal war that gave birth to the new gods?

The biggest thing that John did with Darkseid was having him die to the anti monitor.

No, you have to remember old main continuity Alan became native to Earth-0 due to COIE. That new Earth-2 was created after Infinite Crisis and we only saw a little of it. He might have always been gay there (can't remember if the kids existed though and I'm too lazy to go back and check that JSA arc that explored the fact that there were two versions).

At what point in history did this happen? Given that the Greek gods were worshiped by the Greeks, surely the New Gods appeared sometime after this? They wouldn’t predate humanity or anything if our history clearly shows us worshiping different pantheons -and never the New Gods. Have we ever been told how old Darkseid or Highfather are?

Also, surely other planets have their own mythological gods. I know Krypton has Rao. Was he pissed when Krypton got blown up? There must surely be Martian gods too, and Czarnian gods, etc

I think for practical purposes, your Mythology > Comic Books is a good line of delineation for whether or not a God is a player character or NPC. I mean, most non-comic book fans are more likely to know mythological stuff like Greek Gods than, well, Wonder Woman is a bad example, but most other comic book characters.

And also, only certain Wonder Woman NPCs are his in-game children. At least one of them was Hercules' rape-kid, and in some servers she was spawned from either clay or a statue (not to mention some of her analogues on other worlds had nothing to do with the Greek Gods anyway).

I suppose that Thor also has his avatars-- he's got not-Thor Odinson on the main New/not-616 server, the Ultimate one on the re-issued Ultimates server, Bendis edition, plus all the variations where he's either playing Horde or Alliance depending on his alignment (as Thorr or Revengers Cthulu-infected Thor or Zombie Thor).

Also, keep in mind that as higher-concept gods, they're running all these toons simultaneously, so it's like if you were to run several games on multiple servers at once.

Seems more like narcissism or something than gay. I think they technically had the same soul at least so they are closer to being the same person than most alternate versions.

>My understanding is that there is ONE version of Darkseid, and whenever he appears on a different Earth, it’s an avatar of him, basically like a video game character the “real” one can control, and he’s got a version of himself in all universes. Is this correct?

I really think it's better to look at this from a 4th wall breaking point of view.

Originally, pre-Crisis, there was only one Darkseid, but when he appeared, it was generally his real body, with his rare use of avatars being extremely obvious (like a floating head or forming a body out of random natural materials).

This continued into post-Crisis. However, due to him being mishandled by several writers, others started using avatars as excuses for those bad showings (like Darkseid vs Doomsday).

Byrne, who also arguably wrote a weak Darkseid, actually was one of the writers that pushed the idea that any time Darkseid lost a battle outside of the context of the New Gods themselves, it was actually an avatar. He introduced this idea when he got to write Darkseid after the Darkseid vs Doomsday situation. This use of avatars isn't really clear and is always debatable.

When DC brought back the multiverse, they incorporated many former elseworlds that had their own versions of the New Gods, which meant that there were multiple Darkseids and others around. They initially didn't explain how this worked.

Finally, however, with Final Crisis, Morrison pushed the idea that the actual physical Darkseid had never appeared in the main universe. It was always avatars, and that his mere presence as a spirit possessing a body, due to his true body having been destroyed in an off-screen war, was enough to bring ruin to the entire universe.

(continues next post)

Jonhs, when the New 52 started, followed up on Morrison's push for a single Darkseid - only one version of the New Gods for the entire multiverse. The Darkseid forces attacking the main Earth were the same ones attacking Earth-2. However, due to the Earth-2 line falling apart and executing Barda and Mister Miracle in a way Johns disliked, they stepped back on it, with Johns deciding to ignore those Earth-2 appearances, basically treating them as separate characters.

At almost the same time, we got Morrison's explanation in Multiversity
regarding "emanations" and fragments - they aren't quite the same as Avatars. They're reflections of the actual New Gods that are still recovering from Final Crisis, but they operate on their own will and believe themselves to be the "originals" with no knowledge about these actual prime versions of themselves that exist elsewhere.

Anyway, I don't think this explanation applies to the Greek Gods. Earth-2 opened with the Greek Gods almost completely eliminated, and that was way before they had gone ahead with multiple versions/emanations of the New Gods. So, they seemed to go with the idea of Greek Gods having counterparts in different worlds from the start rather than making them unique.

Wouldn’t it be a weird and uncomfortable experience to befriend or fall in love with someone who you know is merely an avatar of a larger being? I get that Hippolyta fell for Zues’ charm and it was a one-night thing, but over in Marvel, wouldn’t Jane Foster have a hard time dating Thor if she knew that he was playing on other servers as well? How do you even befriend someone like that, knowing that you are like an NPC to them and that none of your problems ultimately matter?

I get that from your perspective you’d be dating/befriending the avatar and not the higher being, but it would still feel pretty jarring to know that.

dc.wikia.com/wiki/Old_Gods

Time and death work differently for gods
Darkseid died like 4 times in Final Crisis and it still didn't stick.

Most stories that involve dating gods (or even just very strong beings in general) go into that aspect of it even without the avatar issue. That's just part of the drama.

After Flashpoint, none of the Crisis events happened. Alan was a native to New Earth after COIE, yes. But after Flashpoint got rid of COIE, Alan was once again native to Earth 2 and now gay for some reason.

>There must surely be Martian gods too,
It might just be that the Martians worshiped the endless, as seen in sandman. However seeing how the new gods are universal I'm going to say that most old gods died to give birth to the new gods.

No, Flashpoint did not get rid of COIE or any of the Crises from a multiversal perspective. It just erased them from personal character histories. The only thing that kind of got rid of it was Convergence, but the less said about Convergence the better off we'll be.

And all the JSA hints so far pretty much prove that the set of them we're getting will be separate from the new 52 E2 versions.

I think the "NPC" aspect of things sort of wraps up that problem.

The NPCs have certain parameters-- not to say they're not valid beings, but to the NPC, the player's toon IS the player, they have no concept of it being a construct that a higher being controls.

Unless the NPC were hypercrisis'd, and that would open up a whole new can of worms.

I guess I can see the whole "fragments" thing being a separate being from the prime versions, but it seems like the prime versions can somewhat "influence" their "fragments," like that line about Darkseid re-creating himself from his shattered fragments.

So it's probably like a player who has limited control over his in-game avatar who is limited by the restrictions and parameters of the game and the server.

Tbf I wouldn't go as far as saying all the gods that existed before the New Gods should be considered Old Gods. The implication is mostly that they're the Asgardians.

>At what point in history did this happen? Given that the Greek gods were worshiped by the Greeks, surely the New Gods appeared sometime after this? They wouldn’t predate humanity or anything if our history clearly shows us worshiping different pantheons -and never the New Gods. Have we ever been told how old Darkseid or Highfather are?

Actually, I'd guess this is one of the reasons sometimes (even in the most recent origin we got for them) the "Old Gods" mentioned in New Gods rather than being the Earth pantheons like originally intended are said to be fictional proto-New Gods. So they can destroy themselves and be replaced by the New Gods in their own timescale, without needing to follow humanity's.


>Also, surely other planets have their own mythological gods. I know Krypton has Rao. Was he pissed when Krypton got blown up? There must surely be Martian gods too, and Czarnian gods, etc
Well, in the New 52 Rao was just a Kryptonian that acquired super powers and eternal life from the belief of his followers rather than an actual god. Of course, this was from Hitch's JLA run, so I wouldn't be surprised if it gets just ignored later.

Does Earth 2 have normie versions of Hal Jordan and Barry Allen who never got powers?

Originally there was plan for there to be one set of New Gods post-Flaspoint, but that got changed with Multiversity to fix problems that arose from Earth 2.

There is a true Darkseid who has emanations (sort of weaker shades) in every world aside from Earth 51. He merged with emanations from Earth 0, 2 and possibly others. Got killed, reborn as a kid and started getting older thanks to power stolen from demigods, but I'm behind on WW so I don't know where this plot went.

Old gods exist per universe. New Gods, can't control their emanations. Not every character has his direct counterpart on other Earths.

Access removed himself from existence along with all memories of crossovers related to him. Marvel characters remember JLA/Avengers, but DC ones probably don't as reality was heavily rewritten few times in the meantime.

Anyone has the page where Metron is shown that all the crisis happened and even he forgot about it?

Not handy, but it was from Darkseid War prelude shit right?

>Marvel characters remember JLA/Avengers, but DC ones probably don't as reality was heavily rewritten few times in the meantime.
Wrong, never once have there been any hints that Marvel characters remember Jla/Avengers or that it was even Canon to them. But we have been shown that jla/Avengers is Canon to the DCU, unless John's retconed parts of it.

Yes

I don't think Johns has touched anything about the creation of E1 beyond what might have been in 52. Should still be canon.

The thing is that jla/Avengers ended with Krona trapped in a cosmic egg to birth a new universe, but somehow Krona showed up in green lantern events that John's wrote and in a traditional guardian boy.

If Marvel character travelled to to same space co-ordinates where Krypton should be in the DC universe, would they find empty space? A husk of a planet that Galactus consumed centuries ago?

I know that when the DC characters were on Marvel Earth they tried to travel to one of the DC cities (Metropolis?) and it was just empty countryside.

>>Anyway, I don't think this explanation applies to the Greek Gods.
IIRC, each Universe was supposed to have one set of New Gods "Emanations" and ONE Pantheon.

E-0 gets the Greek one, E-2 the Roman one, E-8 the aboriginal one, etc.(+The Presence because the jews are multiversally the chosen ones of course)

It was argued, back in the day, whether the Pantheons were themselves Emanations of the True New Gods(hence the "multiple" in Barda's sentence) or independent entities.

So after Flashpoint, did the Vertigo universe get folded into DC? I understand that Brightest Day introduced a version of Constantine and Swamp Thing that were different to the Verigo versions. Did Flashpoint affect Vertigo? If so, why was that necessary when DC already had their own versions of these characters? Seems a little weird that angel’s and devils and God (capital G) would be affected by something an earthly superhero from a different dimension does.

The egg hatched in Trinity and he was still there, so it mostly is up to how he got transported back I guess and whether it's plausible for him to have resumed his role for the entity shit after that?

The Multiversity description still suggests that E1 is newer than the others though.

nope, we were told explicitly when they explained Wally coming back that Eart-0 is NOT New Earth.
Wally isn't New Earth Wally, he's E-0 Wally with New Earth Wally's memories loaded due speedforce shenanigans.

>Interestingly, this would mean that Zeus and his family are playing on the Marvel server as well.
DC Gods are more akin to Marvel's Abstracts(though in Reverse) than Marvel Gods

DC Gods are singularity beings whose existence affects each Earth through the filter of their reality.
Like light through a prism.
They likely mix up, too, so the, say, base-gods of Thunder and Leader mix as Zeus on E-0, but on the Norse filter of E-13(just an example) Thunder mixes with Hero as Thor

As said before, it was speculated Morrison was intended to make all the Pantheon "just" mixed\filtered emanations of the New Gods, promoting the New Gods as the True Archetype Gods.

After Flashpoint all DC properties was moved into the main universe, including things from wildstorm like the authorities/Stormwatch, gen 13 and Daemonites. But I think they become a separated universe again and I don't know how.

Supposedly, at the end of Flashpoint, Earth-0/New Earth, Wildstorm, and Vertigo got folded into one Earth (explanation was that Nu-Earth was originally fragmented into Earth-0, Wildstorm (Earth-50) and Vertigo (Earth-13) because {{{{Dr. Manhattan}}}} and that binding them back together would something-something-something-- hence all the Nu-52 Wildstorm and Vertigo titles set in Nu-Earth-0 (all of which pretty much fuckin' tanked).

Also, if all the Gods and other beings in the Sphere of the Gods have their emanations (whether they're full avatars or just independent pieces), stands to reason that YHWH and his angels would have their emanations in the Orrery as well.

Although that bit at the end of Final Crisis when Nix Uotan calls forth God's angels to beat down Mandraak, it's probably the prime versions, not their fragments.

I think whatever the original plan for the gods (prime version exists on the Sphere of the Gods, various fragments exist to some degree or another on the 52 Earths, as either emanations or mythology), it's been fucked with to a great degree since Multiversity, so we're pretty much working on whatever the fuck Johns feels like at the moment.

>nope, we were told explicitly when they explained Wally coming back that Eart-0 is NOT New Earth.
>Wally isn't New Earth Wally, he's E-0 Wally with New Earth Wally's memories loaded due speedforce shenanigans.

It's the same Earth but a different reality/timeline version of it. This basically only means the vibrational frequency has not changed.

Also New Earth became Earth-0 after Infinite Crisis not Flashpoint. It's Earth-0 in everything after 2006. I'm just being pedantic here though and I know what you meant.

Oh, yeah, you're right I had forgotten that detail. Originally they were pushing each pantheon to exist in only one world. I think that ended even faster than the New Gods being unique though.

I’m wondering how the Dark Multiverse works. They are supposedly shaped by Batman’s fears.

So (dark) Earth forms over billions of years and eventually life emerges. Millions of years of dinosaurs, then the Stone Age, Bronze Age, Iron Age. Eventually, modern society forms, and all the same events play out. Bruce Wayne’s ancestors all meet up and reproduce just like they are supposed to. Two world wars. JFK gets shot, Elvis is big, the internet gets invented, 9/11 happens. They Waynes get shot after the theater, Krypton’s society has been evolving this whole time too, Kal gets sent to Earth just as he should in the regular timeline.

Then, some disaster happens to Bruce and it’s revealed that their world was always part of a “dark” multiverse doomed to fail. How does that even work? There’s been thousands of years of human progress, millions of years of evolution with different life forms. What makes their universe “darker” than the next one? Did Bruce’s great, great, great, great grandfather know he was in a dark multiverse? No, he just went about life as normal and was no worse off for it. How do the normal DC characters know that they aren’t part of someone else’s dark multiverse? It makes no sense at all when you put any thought into it. Life turned to shit for Batman, but why should that make the whole world collapse? Is there a “happy multiverse” out there as well?

>But I think they become a separated universe again and I don't know how.

I remember Orlando saying that his Midnighter would still exist on E0 even with the Wildstorm relaunch being on a separate Earth so I don't think anything has really been excised out. Just multiple versions.

Sandman Universe just got announced too.

>There’s been thousands of years of human progress, millions of years of evolution with different life forms.
Only from a certain point of view.

I think E2 Fate still had the Egyptian gods so yeah, it may have been something they thought of as a concept but didn't really push.

I think the whole idea of the Dark Multiverse is that they're just "what ifs" and conjectural universes created from fear and anxiety, but some of those fears and anxieties are so irrational and far-fetched that the universe created from it is unstable and collapses.

And it's not just Batman's fears and anxieties, last few issues show that Superman has his Dark Multiverse analogues as well, so the Dark Multiverse is just a lot of aborted unstable universes that would have naturally dissolved and been recycled by that world-forge thing if it weren't for Edgelord Bat-Dragon Empty-Hand whateverthefuck thing not doing its fucking job and recycling that mess.

So each time Bats has some fucked up thought, world forge creates a whole new universe based on those fucked up thoughts from the premise of that thought going both forwards and backwards through time (within that universe). Usually, the thought is so fucked up that the universe spawned from it just naturally collapses and dissolves, same as whatever happens when you have a similar fucked up thought-- usually, unless you were chemically imbalanced, you'd say "huh, that's fucked up" and then forget about said thought-- hence that universe getting un-created and forgotten.

BUT-- if you were some nutjob with some sort of OCD or whatever, you'd keep putting energy and feeding into that fucked-up thought, and that thought-universe would keep growing and growing and consuming more of your time and attention and energy-- hence the Dark Multiverse.

It's a product of a fucked up and diseased mind because Edgelord Bat-Dragon hasn't been taking his fucking meds and just dismissing fucked up ideas as being fucked up ideas instead of writing tumblr fanfic about it.

>They are supposedly shaped by Batman’s fears
Only the dark knight's, and the dark multiverse is filled with failed worlds who's only destiny is to die.

Everything you said is a morrison fever dream It is not real and will get retconned back to pre-flashpoint multiverse eventually.

Best not to worry about it or pay attention.

This is the supppsed real Darkseid.

>(+The Presence because the jews are multiversally the chosen ones of course)

That's exactly how Jack Kirby would want it.

...

Sauce

Of course that's how the jew would want it

If darkseid that powerful then why he never invade multiverse?

Batman thought robot when

Because New Genesis is actively working to forever cuck him and keep him from fucking shit over.

They failed however

Going off on this: How does the Presence, the archangels that each embody half of his power (assuming Gabriel's a glorified extra here), Prayala from JLD and the Endless' parents fit into the "spheres" of existence? I distinctly remember Carey's comic shows the Presence far, far, FAR transcends the combined might of Heaven and could not only pick up a representation of the multiverse back while it was infinite like a balloon, but use other characters as conduits to stitch two equally infinite multiverse into it as a gestalt creation. On the other hand, I remember it was explicit that there had been other creations and creators in the past.

And at the end of the comic, Lucifer (deprived of his Morningstar power, mind) flies out into the void outside existence to have an unwanted chat with the Presence. Would that have retroactively been Monitor-Mind the Overvoid or a different...strangely similar white void?

What's even more confusing is Daniel-Dream seems to be operating on a multiversal level as of Dark Nights Metal seeing how Barbatos' incursions were burning down his library.

Tbfq considering how little New Genesis does other than throw Orion at problems, they come off as the cuckold in the relationship. Out of all the New Gods, Darkseid is the only one who consistently functions like...well, a god. Instead of funny space people with gimmicky advanced technology who go down to any sub-Wonder Woman combatent without it.

Try to imagine a story where Highfather's impending death causes the multiverse to go into an upward spiral of hope and prosperity as he exists really hard at the center of it all. I can't, either.

Don't know about the others, but Prayala likely doesn't fit into any of the "spheres" at all. Do remember that she WAS the void that preceded existence itself, and as such, she's always been, even before every other god and the like. The only beings comparable to her in that regard are the Presence itself and the great Evil Beast (ignoring the more meta-entities for now).

What I hate about FC is that darkseid not really final boss

Isn't that Destiny of the Endless on the top of the multiverse map, right where it says "Overvoid" too? Didn't want to say it out since I've lurked these threads enough to know people can get grumpy about Vertigo wanking, but I've known Vertigo than the Multiversity/Convergence stuff I've only caught up on recently so I might as well get the stupid questions out of the way.

Genuinely curious is there are more solid answers to how the successive cosmologies interact. By the way, there is no Lucifer sequel. Just thought I'd mention that.

What the fuck was this?

I mean he could, it's just not efficient. Every move he does is to obtain The Anti-Life Equation, the means to impose his very will on all beings everywhere. He'll invade a world to gain info on it, or replenish his ranks. His stalemate with New Genesis is just smart tactics, because why wage a war you don't need to?

This is the best explanation I've read so far of the Dark Multiverse.

I believe it is. In truth, ranking Biblical/Gaiman's shit with DC is always a headache. General ladder I always went with was
>The Presence
>Lucifer Morningstar
>The Endless
>The New Gods
>Old Gods

Isn't anyone else bothered by the fact that DC has an amazing multiversal lore at their disposal, but they rarely use it, or even bother to set things straight?

I think we need a new Multiversity mini where everything is explored and explained. Including Dr. Manhattan.

What stories where darkseid meet brainiac?

To this day I still can't understand how New Genesis can, realistically, stalemate him when Darkseid alone has done far more impressive things than all of them combined.

The fuck has Highfather EVER done, other than frown at things and advocate noninterference?

While you're probably right by canon, I wish New Gods other than Darkseid had opportunities to do divine things. Or interact with the setting in a way that makes them out as divine, instead of just run of the mill metahumans. I tried to pick up some Mr. Miracle stories, and had to put them down when he didn't perform a SINGLE miracle halfway through the first issue.

Meanwhile in an ancient Sandman spinoff for the Kindly Ones, I saw Cronus trick Hermes into stepping outside the inn at the end of the world's threshold, where he fell into Cronus' (apparently human scale) tea cup and was swallowed-where he apparently fell into the surreal nightmare that is the abandoned Greek underworld.

>Including Dr. Manhattan

I suspect for better or worse, this is what Doomsday Clock will be about. I'm just hoping that if the answer is something as obvious as "The Empty Hand zapped him like it did Dax Novu", they at least make it an interesting spectacle.

Actually I think it's pretty straightforward right now, and they seldom use it because it could further complicate matters, not to mention take focus off main canon. However I would love a Crime Syndicate series. Marvel should really get a better multiverse

I think Highfather has special powers/means to use The Source Wall to even things out.

>Marvel
>Doing anything right
Pick one.

Yes (and it's beautiful!)

...was this in the old comics? Because I find the idea of how broken that should be utterly laughable in light of how much Darkseid has gotten away with, and how little New Genesis has contributed to resisting him; the latest I can remember Highfather showing up recently is in a flashback where he was doing swapsies for son hostages with 'seid. And Wonder Woman's New 52 run, where in response to a universal threat appearing he sent Orion to do his dirty work.

...god, even if it was more Wondy-focused than the current Darkseid And Grail Show. New 52 was a depressing run for Wondy: Hera shat on her attempts to redeem her, SURPRISINGLY all the Olympians turned out to be dicks, a sad snake lady with abandonment issues ran away to be alone forever, her designated mortal besty turned out to be Athena pulling a fast one in a mortal vessel.

And the baby she was trying to protect disintegrated, releasing Zeus back into the world.

If that isn't a big, fat kick in the teeth to everything Diana believed in, I don't know what is. Pic fucking related, the champion of love sitting broken and alone on an island somewhere.

>The Gentry invade Marvel
>They become confused when nobody really notices or reacts
>Even the Cosmic Abstracts they pushed over to invade don't give a shit, they're so used to being bullied they're already assuming the position or lying back and trying to reach their happy place

She put her faith in the fucking Olympians of all divinities. The fuck was she expecting? The Olympians are some of the biggest dicks in the divine playing field, she sholud've seen that coming.

Yeah and in the story, villains keep asking her if she knows what she's doing and getting into. And I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be presented as if Diana is gonig to refute them all. But she doesn't, and the comic just abruptly...ends, with Diana leainv Themyscira torn by strife and, her old god friends implicitly ditching her and the only reason any kind of happy ending happened was Zeus taking pity on her.

Pity. From Zeus.

How does the Presence react to major universal fuck ups, like COIE,Flashpoint etc...?

If you don't like it, go read some goyish comic books.
Oh wait, there aren't any.

It's all within his power/design. He's been to the beginning and end of time, and knows every outcome. The reality is simply the toys he has created, actors in his play. It's why Lucifer rebelled, because every action he took was part of his design.

To be fair, my understanding is that post-Lucifer he decided to remove himself entirely and just kind of...fuck off into the opposite direction of wherever Lucifer was flying into the void. Leaving Elaine to run everything from the inside-out. So it's conceivable some of those could've happened after he left, and beyond that Elaine being part of everything means she reacts and acts so discretely nobody notices it as anything more obvious than the heroes winning the day.

>so the Dark Multiverse is just a lot of aborted unstable universes that would have naturally dissolved and been recycled by that world-forge thing if it weren't for Edgelord Bat-Dragon Empty-Hand whateverthefuck thing not doing its fucking job and recycling that mess
That reminds me a lot of the failed universes from one plotline in Lucifer

I think they only ever played chess right after COIE.

Lucifer would have been the greatest Green Lanturn ever.