Will Western Animation surpass anime is popularity or heights of quality in the foreseeable future?

Will Western Animation surpass anime is popularity or heights of quality in the foreseeable future?

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youtu.be/2gB-Vcyrk8s
youtube.com/watch?v=Sb-ZbtA1WGQ
sakugabooru.com/post/show/46276
trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2010-02-17 2018-03-17&q=/m/0h1frgv,/m/0v3ghrd
trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2010-02-17 2018-03-17&q=gravity falls,Kill la Kill,キルラキル
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Explain how it's bait please?

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Ok

Cartoons are significantly more popular than anime. Something like Gravity Falls reaches way more audiences than stuff like Kill La Kill. Even some of the most popular anime, like Naruto, don't reach the raw number popularity of something like The Simpsons. I mean shit, Lilo & Stitch is so popular it got TWO Asian reboots.

As far as technical drawing ability, no, never. Not until American artists are pushed to their limits rather than retreating to cartoons because, "They're easy to draw".

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OP pic for quality and AT for popularity, if you can find a cartoon that does both then anime will be surpassed. One reason anime is more popular is really due to the age ghetto thing that Western Animation has been trapped in for decades

Why would you compare Naruto to Simpsons when they have two completely different demographics. Why not compare Naruto to something like Avatar?

Because I'm comparing popular and popular, not genre-to-genre.

The fact is a cartoon from the West is capable of reaching a lot more households around the world and becoming a pop cultural juggernaut far easier than anime.

Because America exports way more than they import. It doesn't really have anything to do with the quality of the shows themselves.

Okay? OP specifically stated quality and popular as two different factors. And I answered both in my original post.

The pinnacle of western animation was that time homer did that slow smile during a board game. You know the one.

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youtu.be/2gB-Vcyrk8s

>"If I didn't get fired it's on-model"

It's already done both.
>As far as technical drawing ability, no, never.
Are you fucking retarded, most of the greatest artist of all time have been westerners, this includes animation too. There are very few Japanese animators who can even be compared to something like Laika, Titmouse, Golden Age Disney, Aleksandr Petrov(not exactly western but w/e, Cartoon Saloon, among many others.
This is braindead in every possible way, but because "muh off-model" in a show that doesn't even have poor animation retards will repeat this bullshit. Kill your self.

Key words being "have been". The only high tier 2D animators left are people in their 90's who, while they still make stuff, haven't been working for studios for a long time and are pretty close to kicking the bucket.

I don't really consider indie works to be lumped into the actual animation productions of regions much like I don't consider student films to represent Western animation. Otherwise, we would be seen as fucking fantastic because Gobelin films are amazing.

>Cartoons are significantly more popular than anime

Sorry but that's not true.

Only if people do it for free

it's already done it
never doing again in the future though

This is your brain on nationalism. Someone may as well say Japan has surpassed American movies in special effects. And even that would be closer to reality than what you're saying.

Sorry but it's completely true.

Cartoons likely have more viewers, but by other metrics they are less popular.

Having more viewers, more fans, and being more well known is literally the only thing that matters in popularity. What exactly do you think the word popular means?

Anime has more conventions and communities and fan activity in general.

Furries have more cons than people who enjoy missionary position, that doesn't make furries more popular.

Cartoons are objectively more popular worldwide for the sheer fact that we have Disney. Things like South Park and Simpsons are just icings on the cake.

"The west" isn't a nation. And it's completely true once you see through the "if it doesn't look like anime it's bad" mentality.
For one, you said "never" as in "not ever," this was the entire point I contested in that post.
>I don't really consider indie works to be lumped into the actual animation productions of regions much like I don't consider student films to represent Western animation. Otherwise, we would be seen as fucking fantastic because Gobelin films are amazing
"I exclude these things that completely disprove my argument because reasons."
Even discounting these things the average cartoon has better animation than the average anime, there are of course exceptions on both ends but an average cartoon tends to have much more fluid and lively animation than anime, and that's before you even begin to account for films.
>Cartoons likely have more viewers
That is quite literally what popular means.

I already said that they have more viewers, but that they are less popular by other metrics.

>"The west" isn't a nation.
This is nitpicking, and in any case you couldn't be more delusional even if you started bragging you're faster than Usain Bolt even though you never do anything except sit on the couch.

Would you mind actually defining what those metrics are, because if you're going to answer with fan content or something like that, there are still counterexamples.

I discount those things because they do not represent what people think of when they think of a nation's animation. The first thing they think of is what's on TV with the second being movies.

Also America has MORE animation on average in their cartoons than anime, but that doesn't mean it's good animation. It just means a character is more likely to move their arm to talk than in anime. But when there is actual animation in anime, it often outshines the animation in an American show.

can't we just have a comfy otgw thread without the associated east vs. west shitposting

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I just defined what the metrics are.

Comic-Con is the biggest convention in the world, comics are not the most popular medium by any means.

Personally, while I'm far more of a fan of the art direction in anime than in western animation, a lot of the actual animation in most anime just turns me off in general with how they use smears, as well as their cinematography.

I love how Sup Forums always tries to pretend like they know what they're talking about regarding animation as an art form when the real issue here has nothing to do with technical quality and everything to do with aesthetics. But Sup Forums is pretty much incapable of talking about aesthetics honestly, so that figures. The problem is western cartoons are lame and anime is cool. This statement even now is triggering countless autists because "lame" and "cool" are not quantifiable or easily measurable concepts, they can't be rated on a scale or evaluated objectively, but this is the core of this whole silly, repetitive debate and why these threads get made on a daily basis. Cartoons are lame, anime is cool and stylish. The sooner you start talking about aesthetics the sooner you can actually get the root of why this perception exists.

Apparently its record is more than 130,000 people, but Comiket regularly has half a million or more recorded visitors, and runs for three days instead of Comic-Con's four. Since they don't seem to account for repeat visits it's a little less than those numbers, but still significantly more than Comic-Con.

I'm down for that

youtube.com/watch?v=Sb-ZbtA1WGQ

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>Comic-Con is the biggest convention in the world
lol no, comiket is by a ridiculous margin. Though that's partly because comic-con is far more exclusive and expensive to visit.

Smear frames are a completely legit technique, and cartoons practically speaking don't even have cinematography.

No. Because they're still for children, and nobody will put money toward anything that isn't a raunchy adult comedy.

I mean, that is still a con for comics. All you have to do is swap out the name and my point remains the same.

Sure, make one, but the faggot decided to make an east vs west thread that just happened to have OTGW as the pic (?)related.
>Also America has MORE animation on average in their cartoons than anime, but that doesn't mean it's good animation. It just means a character is more likely to move their arm to talk than in anime. But when there is actual animation in anime, it often outshines the animation in an American show
This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You're basically just saying "there are specific moments I can cherrypick so anime is better," and even then those moments people like to post are usually just marginally better animated than the average anime scene but "it looks really cool so that means the animation is good"
There is literally nothing wrong with smears.

I know that, it's just that I don't like how they look or how they're utilized in anime.

>This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Only because you think the more something moves = the better animated it is rather than being able to actually tell what good animation is.

By your own logic, Dora the Explorer is better animated than most anime because it moves more on average.

Your point doesn't actually contradict what I said.

It's not just a few specific moments here and there, and there are a lot of scenes that are a significant jump in quality, not a marginal one.

Well considering animation is motion, actually moving would be a pretty significant part, yes, the way characters move and convey emotion and personality through that is important. But that motion being fluid and natural, and having weight is a big part of that too, and while I haven't seen much of Dora, what I have seen, movements seem really mechanical and regular, though that could be said about some anime too

>the way characters move and convey emotion and personality through that is important
There's other kinds of animation too. Vehicles/mecha, effects, battles, dancing, camera movements.

oh. You're that guy. Well, have a nice life.

The guy pointing out the obvious?

But even then, cartoons barely convey any of what you're describing except on a severely limited level. The characters move from point A to point B in the most basic of requirements. There is a reason why TV animation is viewed as so lowly, that it's been replaced by Flash animation with execs going, "No one will notice the difference!".

Even if an anime is static 85% of the time, there is still that 15% when it does finally move and it beats cartoons on a technical level. But even then, the static imagery of anime is still better drawn than the limited movement of something like We Bear Bears or Clarence.

Japan is expected to practice sakuga at least a handful of times in a season while cartoons have to make a special exception to allow guest animators.

And when you consider how much anime is pumped out a year, the numbers stagger in anime's favor to make it so on average, the technical skill level of animation outshines American TV.

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Look I like cartoon (OTGW is one of my favorite works ever) but we can't lie us and ignore the massive expansionist that the anime and manga had during the last decades, manga will always be more popular because their stories are considered more mature and many other factors that I don't wanna mention right here because I'm lazy.

>Manga is objectively more popular!
>I don't feel like explaining how right now lol w/e

I mean... No one here was talking about manga. I'm sure manga has a gangbusters industry in Japan for all I know, and I'm also sure the Vita sells extremely well in Japan, but you have to include worldwide if you're going to talk about popularity levels for any comparison.

Agreed. OTGW is the jewel of the western animation, it's easily the peak of the animation of this generation. Now let's talk about "What we know about the Unknown".

The Beast: This mysterious character is apparently the being that keep Wirt and Greg inside of the unknown but McHale said that in an alternative ending Wirt was supposed to stay in the unknown (McHale describe it as a happy ending) so we can assume that you can leave the unknown to free will (enter is another deal).

This aspect of the creature is clearly inspired by Lucifer lord of the hell. Lucifer's body is trapped in the last floor of the hell but he can move through the hell using his shadow, this seems to be a big inspiration behind the beast since he is kinda like a shadow and he die if his lantern is extinguished, the logic behind that is "A shadow can't exist without a light".

>but you have to include worldwide if you're going to talk about popularity levels for any comparison.

Anime and manga are extremely popular in latin america (they often have conventions and I know about at least two editorials that publish doujins even when it's not their main business) and some countries of Europe. An important news of a certain asian country talked about Sakura (Naruto) as one of the worst female characters of all the times but this show was popular enough in that country to make a mention of the character in an important media.

Manga is more popular than Comic or Cartoon when we talk about worldwide because people usually don't consider cartoon like a product for adults or to be taken seriously.

>Manga is more popular than Comic or Cartoon when we talk about worldwide

I'm going to call bullshit on that because Disney's existence completely blows out all popularity contests out the window. Fuck, Disney cartoons are more popular than just cartoons.

> don't consider cartoon like a product for adults or to be taken seriously.
That has absolutely NOTHING to do with popularity and I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

>Only because you think the more something moves = the better animated it is rather than being able to actually tell what good animation is.

This guy have point. Honestly I hate how disney's characters often have problems to stay still, it's like they have to move all the parts of their bodies at the same time and that's annoying. That's why I prefer cartoon network's characters because they are more calm than disney's characters.

As far as I know manga outsells comics in America, and where I live manga completely eclipses comics.

>Western Animation
So you mean American animation only right

Yeah, if we're only including America, the only way for a comic book to be popular here is if it's a movie. If we include the West, then Europe being on our side gives comics a fighting chance.

Europe is where I live. I don't know about other countries but manga is more popular here.

>Something like Gravity Falls reaches way more audiences than stuff like Kill La Kill.
Because it's wrong comparing them. KlK was not meant to create an extensive world which can be exploited by other works. It didn't create a fandom which can be fed additional garbage for more money.
It was a short, fun, trashy, quickly hyped and quickly forgotten anime with simple, even primitive formula.
Even still, it was more popular than Gravity Falls when it was actually airing, according to Google Trends.
Now, if you want to see big numbers, look at something like Madoka. It had higher peak and it keeps the constant popularity even five years since the last movie, while GF steadily declines after it's big finale and already dropped lower than Madoka.

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>I'm going to call bullshit on that because Disney's existence completely blows out all popularity contests out the window. Fuck, Disney cartoons are more popular than just cartoons.

Disney's cartoons are not that popular (internet people isn't a big portion of the general audience) their movies are popular, but cartoons as for example Star Vs aren't that popular (and it's normal because it's a cartoon aiming for a female teenager audience). Disney isn't popular in japan so they can't blow out all the popularity contest, an example of how popular the manga and anime have become is Tokyo Ghoul and I am a Hero, these mangas are being published in USA and they have been in the tops of more sold for years (sometimes various volumes).

>That has absolutely NOTHING to do with popularity and I don't know why you keep bringing it up.

It has much to do with popularity because it means that cartoon has an reduced audience when you compare them with anime and its multiple sub-genders.

>But even then, cartoons barely convey any of what you're describing except on a severely limited level
>The characters move from point A to point B in the most basic of requirements
This is completely baseless.
>There is a reason why TV animation is viewed as so lowly
On Sup Forums? Because this isn't a popular opinion.
>that it's been replaced by Flash animation
Assuming you're using this to refer to puppet rigs or tweening (which is what the common complaints are), because most modern cartoons don't use flash and there is literally nothing wrong (besides annoying crashes and an overly complicated UI) with Flash. Most cartoons like adventure time, steven universe, OK KO don't even use rigs or tweening
>when it does finally move and it beats cartoons on a technical level
debatable
>But even then, the static imagery of anime is still better drawn than the limited movement of something like We Bear Bears or Clarence
How so?
>while cartoons have to make a special exception to allow guest animators
Most cartoons are regularly well animated.

>And when you consider how much anime is pumped out a year, the numbers stagger in anime's favor to make it so on average
I don't think you know how math works. Even assuming everything you said is true, if 85% of something is static, and you have hundreds of that thing, than on average 85% of all of it is static. (Of course in reality not all of these would be 85%, quite a lot of them are far lower, and a few are far higher)

>the technical skill level of animation outshines American TV.
You've yet to substantiate this claim, and I'm not going to contribute to this cherrypicking war you're trying to start

[nationalistic denial intensifies]

>debatable
sakugabooru.com/post/show/46276

85% isn't just an exaggeration, it's make-believe.

Manga is not a "sub-gender" of anime. if anything, considering how much anime is just adapted manga, you could say the reverse (though that'd be wrong too)
Also, manga being more popular than comics is an irrelevant detail once you realize that comics in the US aren't that popular in the first place and has nothing to do with a discussion about the popularity of animation.
What are you talking about? Gravity Falls search trend peaked higher than KLK ever did at it's peak and continues to be magnitudes more popular trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2010-02-17 2018-03-17&q=/m/0h1frgv,/m/0v3ghrd

>anything I disagree with is nationalism
Well if that's the kind of childish shit we're going with then, I guess I'll just say, fuck off weeb go back to your many containment boards.

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thanks user

remember that mchale mentioned somewhere that the beast was based off ol' scratch, a classic american conception of the devil

It's nationalism because it's completely unmoored from reality. I said nothing to suggest I'm a weeb, and Sup Forums is not a containment board. Back to plebbit, newfag.

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>Gravity Falls search trend peaked higher than KLK ever did at it's peak
Now add the original Japanese title of "キルラキル" to the equation.
KlK peak is higher by 27%.

>it's completely unmoored from reality
You mean it doesn't fit your opinion
> I said nothing to suggest I'm a weeb, and Sup Forums is not a containment board
Didn't say that, didn't refer to any specific board. This is an anime website and you have 20 other places to be a weeb and preach about the glorious nippon than the western cartoon board.

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no it isn't what are you on about?

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It doesn't fit reality.

>Didn't say that, didn't refer to any specific board.
Those other boards aren't containment boards either.

>This is an anime website and you have 20 other places to be a weeb and preach about the glorious nippon than the western cartoon board.
If you acknowledge this is an anime website then why are you talking about containment boards? And why are you acting like this entire thread isn't the West vs. anime when OP explicitly says it is?

>retards seriously think shit like Gravity Falls is more popular than fucking Naruto or Dragon Ball

Holy fucking shit do soyboys literally live locked in their rooms?

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That has little to do with it. It’s just that more attention is put into anime in Japan than to tv animation in America. Creators have to grapple with the animation is for kids stigma and the budget constraints of a shrinking industry, so the more interesting storytelling is in the east, serialized animation wise.

>more interesting to you
ftfy

The total budgets for animation production in America are much bigger than in Japan, it's just that most of that money is not seen on the screen.

There's practically no storytelling going on in American shows beyond episodic stories, most of which are either children's cartoons or adult sitcoms.

I never said Gravity Falls, and of course, any of those things would be dwarfed by something like pokemon on their best of days, but that is the literal definition of cherrypicking.

Sup Forums lives in a constant state of denial. The truth is there hasn’t been a culturally relevant tv cartoon since Adventure Time. Obviously somewhat more niche stuff like KLK won’t match stuff like Gravity Falls, but Sword Art Online and Attack on Titan come out solidly ahead, nevermind actual goliaths like Naruto and Dragon Ball.

>Manga is not a "sub-gender" of anime

Man... what the hell... Did I said that manga was a sub-gender? Anime has many sub-genders and classifications. If the anime is adapted manga and the manga is very popular even in USA it means that animes based in these mangas will be very popular or at least watched by the public that like these mangas.

But talking about western animation, just like a certain representative of marvel said a pair of decades before "The problem with our comics or shows is that there is a big cultural abyss between them and us." USA cartoons often have the problem of being aimed to only their our culture, there are many ideas and tropes that the most part of the other countries don't understand or don't care about it, because cartoons are talking about american ideas.

But cartoons like Avatar or Adventure Time are more received in other countries because they avoid the culture of USA and even when anime express the japanese culture they try to imitate other cultures or show them to us.

Short episodic stories are still stories

And episodic cartoon comedy stories fall very short of what anime is doing.

I like his old versions, they are cool too. But the writing behind The Beast is clearly inspired by Dante's version of Lucifer even when his appearance is based in the american conception of the devil.

Wow, according to these sketches, The oil and for extension the turtles are the evilness inside of the people.

The most popular cartoons of the past 5 years (Gravity Falls, Steven Universe, Star Vs.) are straight up less popular than the most popular anime (Attack on Titan, Sword Art Online, Yuri on Ice) of the past 5 years.

Now, Disney’s theatrical works trump all, but that’s a different ballgame entirely.

>compare them with anime and its multiple sub-genders
You said it
>the manga is very popular even in USA
No, not very popular, just more popular than comics, which are really unpopular.

>it means that animes based in these mangas will be very popular or at least watched by the public that like these mangas
Except that's completely untrue, reading a manga doesn't mean you will watch the anime. Compare MCU to the amount of people who actually read the comics.

>the literal definition of cherrypicking.
>citing the most popular animes in a popularity contest is cherry picking

Stop posting you idiot.

>Sup Forums lives in a constant state of denial.
No kidding.

Ok, we were both doing it wrong.
I had Gravity falls selected as "Search term", which yields less results. Probably not includes misspellings or something like that. As a result, GF peak was lower, so total KlK peak in English and Japanese was greater than that.
If all three are selected as "Search term", KlK peak is only 85% of GF peak, not 127%. Wouldn't call it an overwhelming win, but still a win, so you are in the right.
trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=2010-02-17 2018-03-17&q=gravity falls,Kill la Kill,キルラキル
Kind of a moot point anyway, because initially I didn't search for hieroglyphs as well, so I assumed KlK was less popular. By
>Even still, it was more popular than Gravity Falls when it was actually airing, according to Google Trends.
I meant that during the period when KlK was airing, it was more popular than GF at the same period, not at the GF peak.
Should have worded it better.

Those aren't the most popular cartoons of the past 5 years though (well really these aren't either, but Rick and Morty had that meme thing going on which made it really popular and I'm trying to be fair here)

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Can we talk more about Over The Garden?

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>Now, Disney’s theatrical works trump all
In what regard?
I mean sure, Disney movies are more popular than any anime movie, but if we're talking cultural relevance, not even Frozen can beat the most popular animes.
A major factor is that Disney movies have a very limited shelf life, compared to animes who are popular for longer due to their serialization.

>Those aren't the most popular cartoons of the past 5 years
He meant created in the past 5 years.
Not that web-searches means anything in regards of popularity, especially when literally half of the world doesn't even use the same fucking alphabet, but if you wanna bring up the Simpsons compare them to Dragon Ball and Naruto.

just make an over the garden wall thread, seriously how hard it is?

Then the image used in this threat is a trap?!

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It already has if you look at what's been done in other Western countries.

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Smelling your own farts is not an adequate substitute for doing the necessary work to compete with let alone surpass anime.

yes, this is a bait thread.

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Sorry but Western animation =/= American animation.

If you're going to blame anything, blame the current climate of animation in the US.

It's relegated to the bounds of genre instead of medium, with an audience limited to children instead of everyone, and has spent most of its lifetime defined by an industry leader which is now terrified of innovation.

The US is downright stagnant today compared to the best of its own history, let alone even get close to Europe and Japan, both of which have vibrant animation industries that are full of innovation (and recently have been collaborating more together on unique projects.)

You want a solution? Spend money on what matters. Boycott what doesn't.

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