I'm now finding myself hungry for things that are not part of the DC and Marvel big 2 Oligarchy.
Webcomics, Darkhorse, Weebshit, Novels, Cartoons, ect, ect, ect, just throw things at the wall and sell me on why i should invest my time into a given thing.
No.
Yes I also like Worm/Ward but I don't think we can ever have a productive conversation here.
The Captain Midnight reboot from Darkhorse was pretty good
Man I lost interest in Ward weeks ago. What's happening now?
1. Worm is bad and you should feel bad for liking it
2. Read Wildstorm.
>It's a Wormfag
You're not welcomed here
Invincible
fuck worm
I'm interested in extending the olive branch.
How come you guys like Worm? The characters seem very Goyer/Snyder where they're antisocial malcontents that just fuck through their lives until plot point X happens to force them to respond. They're not very proactive in their lives. Everyone is very reactive and just kind of flow to the currents of their setting.
And that's a problem because interesting characters aren't simply reflexive and because in a setting about the corruptible potential of powers choice is something that should be logically examined.
That's another thing. The whole "trauma gives you powers" thing doesn't lend well to character development because every character is going to be defined by that trauma. It's going to be a hat they wear that they will never grow past. Like Batman's whole "power" is having dead parents but writers have worked him past that to where he focuses on other issues like being a parent to his Bat Family.
Worm honestly seems like 'baby's first dark superhero' story, it always seems like the majority of its fans go 'WOW I NEVER KNEW CAPE STUFF COULD GET THIS VIOLENT'
Then eventually someone introduces them to The Boys or Irredeemable
>implying its impossible to like all three
I read the boys and Irredeemable and tons of other shit long before I found worm.
>implying 'baby's first dark superhero' is coherent criticism.
There are plenty of faults to find in Worm but making up dumbass quotes aren't them.
I don't understand what your actual problem is.
>The whole "trauma gives you powers" thing doesn't lend well to character development because every character is going to be defined by that trauma. It's going to be a hat they wear that they will never grow past.
Now that's just retarded.
The Therapy Team is about to get involved in a war between two large villain factions and the surviving Undersiders are on one side of the war.
>Worm is bad
This. Just read the Endbringer arc and then drop it.
>The characters seem very Goyer/Snyder where they're antisocial malcontents that just fuck through their lives until plot point X happens to force them to respond. They're not very proactive in their lives
Most of the main characters are teenage supervillains of course they're antisocial malcontents.
But Wildstorm did the whole dark and cynical superhero world way before Worm.
Or Ultimate Marvel which was created to cash in on the Wildstorm resurgence The Authority caused.
How is it a retarded criticism?
>characters each having their own troubles to overcome is bad for character development
Yeah, that's retarded.
It is possible to make teenage super villains interesting. But you have to give them goals and things to strive for like that DV8 mini where they war over an alien planet or Claremont’s Hellions.
Worm doesn’t do that. The characters just fart around until Lovecraft shit shows up to destroy the world.
Did you forget the part where the MC tries to take over a section of the city so that her employer will release the little girl precog he enslaved? Or how she later declares the city the sole turf of her and her team?
The actual fuck are you talking about though? Do you really, *REALLY* think the character don't change during the story?
Taylor's arcs i remember her going through from reading Worm 3 years ago. Not other charactes. Just tay's
>Romance with BBC that blooms up only to fizzle out from their shared cape trauma and ending with Brian getting a new girl after taylor leaves the group.
>Dinah rescue obsession/Saving the world obsession
>Lying to her dad about her illegal activities until the bitter end.
>Compartmentalization by taylor over all the villainous things she does being built up and eventually crashing down.
>Taylor's undersiders betrayal plan/decision.
>Bullies arc being given less fucks by taylor for every chronological encounter and ending with taylor not even giving the slightest care that it happened.
>Bitch friendship attempt.
Also, Victoria's arc in Ward is all about getting over her trauma.
I'll throw some names at you but don't expect me waste my time trying to sell you on them when google can give you a basic rundown.
Rocketeer
Mage
Nexus
Badger
Madman/The Atomics
Zot!
Hellboy
Empowered
Tom Strong
Starman (DC but pretty much self contained)
X-Force/X-Statix (Marvel but same as above)
But they don’t overcome them. They’re defined by it.
>Webcomics
There are no good superhero webcomics. They're all shit. If you're lucky you'll find one with at least good art, but never good writing.
>Weebshit
The Japanese don't make capeshit the Western way. Superheroes are only used in the visual sense, like in BNHA which is really just shounen, or OPM which is really just a comedy. Western-style superheroes just aren't made by the Japenese.
>Novels
There is a LOT of capeshit literature out there and all of it is bad. It's people who want to write comics but can't afford an artist and/or can't get hired by any comic publisher so they write terrible prose instead.
>Empowered
Fishlips damsel fetish trash.
>There is a LOT of capeshit literature out there and all of it is bad
What about Wild Cards?
Newsflash: Most people who go through trauma don't come out better for it.
"Overcome" was probably the wrong word but no one in Worm is defined by their trigger event. It shaped their perceptions and decisions, yes, but that's exactly how characterization should work as everyone is molded by their experiences good or bad. No one harped on about their trigger or dwellt on it. Taylor wasn't even thinking about Emma.
>It's people who want to write comics but can't afford an artist and/or can't get hired by any comic publisher so they write terrible prose instead
I'm sure they just wanted to write about superheroes. Why do people in this thread sound so offended that people would dare write capeshit in a different medium?
Badger (easily THE best non-Marvel/DC superhero series ever)
Nexus
Coyote
Rocketeer (ONLY if it's by Dave Stevens)
>Starman (DC but pretty much self contained)
>X-Force/X-Statix (Marvel but same as above)
This is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on Sup Forums. Starman is almost entirely about JSA characters and concepts. X-Statix is mutant shit, which has EVERYTHING to do with Marvel continuity drama. You might as well have suggested Batman and Spider-Man and said "those don't count because I like them and want to recommend them in every thread even though the OP said not to".
The One, which is currently being reprinted by IDW. Alan Moore himself considers it one of the best comics ever made. Highly suggest reading it.
Who's the writer?
Rick Veitch
Actually their friends make their problems leave town by threatening to kill them.
Yes, and it was really stupid. Even Taylor knew it was stupid. He sets up these arcs and then interrupts them to do random shit and then forgets about them.
Except none of that is true? I think you're just trolling friendo.
Delphic is another web serial that's off to a good start. Main character is a Postcog in a setting without many Thinker powers.
delphicserial.com
One-Punch Man is also definitely worth checking out. The manga and anime are both great, though the webcomic's art is extremely rough.
Everyone Loves Large Chests is actually a litrpg, but I find it has a similar feeling. The main character is undeniably evil though.
royalroadl.com
The Dire Saga is another series you might want to read. It takes place in a setting that boils down to: what if Tesla beat out Edison + Superpowers. The main character is very similar to Doctor Doom. Oddly, started out as a Worm crossover.
amazon.com
For that matter, there is a huge worm fanfiction community, and some of it is even good. It's the flip-side of Sturgeon's Law.
Black Summer
Absolution
keep in mind that both of these are really gory and fucked up
There's better actual YA novels that deal with supers killing people and feeling bad about it. All of his arcs end anti-climatically because he doesn't know how to write.
How about making a criticism based on the actual material and not just making vague references to other things that hypothetically exist.
Of all the problems I have with Wildbow's writing characterization certainly ain't one of them.
>Expecting a kingpin to give up an oracle for a few healthy locals
If by few you mean a few thousand, and the continued service of a capable parahuman who had gone toe to toe with some of the scariest capes in the world. Even then it wasn't a good expectation and was her mistake, but Coil also hadn't been honest about the kind of person he was.
>And that's a problem because interesting characters aren't simply reflexive
All the characters in the Wire are reflexive, QED you're wrong
It's not really stupid to make a choice that only has, say, a 1% chance of going the way you want if your other option is to walk away and have a 0% chance.
See, this is why people don't like Worm fans. People bring up valid criticism of your YA-tier webnovel and you freak out. NO YOU HAVE TO BE TROLLING NO ONE CAN FIND FAULT IN THE WRITINGS OF MASTER WILDBLOW.
Fucking grow some balls.
Astro City.
Soon I Will Be Invincible, Renegades, Wildcards, there's tons of Superhero lit. Are Wormfags just incapable of going down to the Barnes and Noble to buy a book?
I'm not sure you understand how to argue and make an argument.
If you think the Wire is bad you aren't worth arguing with
>No good superhero webcomics
PS 238 was good.
>Western-style superheroes just aren't made by the Japanese
Toku comes VERY close at times depending on the series. Kamen Rider W was extremely cape. Tiger and Bunny and Samurai Flamenco were very cape as well.
But we aren't talking about the Wire.
>user says the reflexive, flat characters in Worm are bad an uninteresting.
>'Oh yeah? The characters in this unrelated TV show are reflexive so eat shit your argument is invalid."
You do see how you're making a non-argument right?
He said all reflexive characters are uninteresting, and that the characters in worm are bad BECAUSE they're reflexive, moron
Flat characters are generally uninteresting user. You ideally want round characters. Now if you want to actually argue like a man please tell us how the flat characters in Worm are interesting.
Why the fuck are you talking about a live action tv show?
>Why the fuck are you talking about a live action tv show?
If all you make the point that reflexive characters are all shit then it's relevant for me to being up reflexive characters that aren't.
I made one point here and you're trying to weasel out of of being wrong by changing the subject from "reflexive" characters to "flat" ones. Don't do this of you also want to play the "like a man" card.
Read Valiant
The argument wasn't about flat characters it was about how reflexive characters and how their not interesting he then pointed out The Wire a show praised for it's characterization id made up primarily of reflexive characters disproving the point. It's not that hard to follow. Also do you know what flat characters are ? Because Worms characters aren't flat , they grow and change as people throughout the story. You may not like that change but it's pretty clearly there.
The Rocketeer looked pretty alright.
In what way are the Worm characters flat though?
Of all the things one possibly could critique about Worm, the characters and their depth should not be one of them.
You keep saying that they are 1 dimensional you but don’t elaborate on how they actually have traits of being flat. Pic related ends up giving up leadership to the MC after he gets PTSD from being tortured by a meat scientist. Boom, dimensionality for one of the main cast acquired.
Give an example about how the characters are not round first.
Also i’m pretty sure that just made a comically retarded typo when he posted that...If Not then he’s a retard for thinging the wire characters are bad.
How the fuck did Worm get popular and PS 238 didn’t?
What's PS238?
Worm is way better than that literally what
Comic later Web comic about elementary school kids with powers.
My Hero Academia
Yes, you should walk away from ventures that will fail. Her plan was to be a good henchman and then hope her gimp-suit wearing boss would give up his piece of mind.
>toe to toe
you mean barely survives
Even c-list teen shit like True Talents has more believable character writing.
Still a better chance than walking away and hoping he'd give her up for nothing in return.
Ok, maybe barely survived. But in the end she did survive after being in the thick of things, which is more than a lot of others can say.
>You keep saying that they are 1 dimensional you but don’t elaborate on how they actually have traits of being flat. Pic related ends up giving up leadership to the MC after he gets PTSD from being tortured by a meat scientist. Boom, dimensionality for one of the main cast acquired
I like that he only fucks the teen girl until after he gets his organ put in boxes. If I had to pick a time to get it on I'd definitely wait until I was incapable of trusting people and had no self-confidence. Because that just makes sense.
>which is more than a lot of others can say
Well, only her whole team and most of the Travelers. I'm pretty sure he only puts up with the Undersider's shit for Regent and Tattletale. The rest of them are kind of useless. Except post-op Grue.
Post-op Grue was way more useless than pre-op. He got better powers but lost all his competence and composure.
Post-op grue was less useful than pre-op grue though.
The funny thing is that it does make sense, and you don't see it due to completely misreading his character.
Worm isn't a well-planned story, it often contradicts itself, is prone to using some of the most base tropes imaginable to keep the MC's alive, and is not particularly well-written.
Wildbow's emphasis on exposition can be a bit of a grind, but it gives his characters quite a bit of nuance. As well, he makes a genuine effort to expand his world in a somewhat believable way, which many authors do not bother with. he seems to put genuine care and effort into each character's backstory, how their powers mesh with that.
Worm is not a great story, but it is an enjoyable one.
>it often contradicts itself
Only thing that comes to mind on that front is Panacea. She spends the whole story complaining about how constantly healing people is such a miserable existence, then at the end she acts like she's finally found her place... healing people. Really not sure what the hell I missed there.
What did she say at the end to give you that impression? I don't recall her saying anything like that. Also, she spent one chapter out over 200 complaining, not the whole story.
She spent a bunch of time looking miserable and weary in the beginning, then she explains that her whole life is miserable because she feels compelled to go to hospitals healing people all the time.
>What did she say at the end to give you that impression?
Toward the end, I think when Taylor goes to thank her for regrowing her legs she says something like that. As if she's finally at piece and knows where she belongs or some shit. I just remember that part making me do a double take because she was doing exactly what she used to complain about.
I find some of his setting quite boring, but I loved the cosmic stuff that he plants early on
Worm was kind of a slog and I really enjoyed Twig, how is Ward by comparison?
Wait you liked the cosmic stuff more than the street level stuff?
> how constantly healing people is such a miserable existence
Her trouble was her high standards and a nearly neurotic fear of going villain. Helping Taylor at the end was a way for her to channel her powers to do some good.
And remember that one of her final acts were to cause Khepri to happen, which was traumatic for everybody.
I think that part was less about what she was doing at that exact moment and more about what she learned over the past 2 years.
She specifically said something about how her place was there in the sidelines healing the injured. It was presented really weird
Bill Willingham's Elementals is an underrated gem.
Stretch armstrong and the flex fighters.
>Newsflash: Most people who go through trauma don't come out better for it.
It's possible to recover and... Well, just move on with your life. Treating someone like a eternal victim creates just that, a victim. And have your powers literally defined by snowflake making trauma ensures the heroes never stop being edgy victims, preventing them from growing. All that, and it's just grimderp bullshit.
>"Overcome" was probably the wrong word but no one in Worm is defined by their trigger event. It shaped their perceptions and decisions, yes, but that's exactly how characterization should work as everyone is molded by their experiences good or bad. No one harped on about their trigger or dwellt on it. Taylor wasn't even thinking about Emma.
But you just said trauma causes everything. Sounds more like Taylor and the others occasionally whine and blame everyone else for their terrible lives, like typical scum.
>A contrarian
>on Sup Forums
What an anomaly.
1. You don’t know anything about how writing and characterization works.
2. You clearly haven’t read the story so even if you did know what you were talking about nothing you’ve said here is valid.
Go away.
Stay away from Worm. Stick with:
Robert E. Howard stuff.
Doc Savage.
The Shadow.
Zoro.
One Punch Man.
Judge Dredd.
Hellboy.
Worm, SCP, and 90% of web YA shit should be avoided like the plague.
>1. You don’t know anything about how writing and characterization works.
Characters defined by trauma aren't characters. They're 1-dimensional cardboard cutouts used by authors trying to look smarter and more talented than they actually are. They never stop being the 'rape victim,' or the 'guy who got abused by his mom,' they just stagnate and grow sterile.
Yes, they exist in real life. But you don't get superheroes. Oh no, you get freeloading fatasses like Boogie. Nobody likes freeloading fatasses and crackheads.
>YOU DIDN'T REDAD THE STORY
This is why nobody likes Wormfags. Any and all criticism gets shouted down.
None of the characters are defined by their trauma. To give you an example of what that means Taylor completely stops mentioning her or even thinking about her bullies. By the time she’s confronted with it again she finds she utterly doesn’t give a shit cause she’s grown past it and has more important things to think about. Does that sound like someone defined by trauma to you? Regardless her unhappiness and disatisfaction still shaped how she made decisions and formed relationships.
That’s what I meant earlier when I said characters are shaped by their experiences. Not to mention the fact that every character SHOULD have hardships in their life.
>reread
No I said you didn’t read it which you havent. You can’t make any criticisms because you haven’t read it you piece of shit.
If you're okay with YA books, you might check out Please Don't Tell My Parents I'm A Super Villain (or something like that, the exact title might be a little different). The sequels are lacking but I enjoyed the first book of the series.
Confessions of a D Rank Supervillain is basically isekai light novel tier writing, but if you can get past how shallow it is, it is an easy and enjoyable read.