Why don’t western comics have fight scenes as good as eastern ones?
Why don’t western comics have fight scenes as good as eastern ones?
Gavin Brown
Aiden Lewis
Writers want to write drama and artists want to draw talking heads and they release fewer pages per month.
Sebastian Gomez
Because western artists don't know how to convey motion
Caleb Harris
Because good fight scenes take a lot of pages, and at least in Marvel and DC, they need to move the story along so that each book doesn't fall too much behind continuity with the rest of the universe.
In manga, you can spend literally over a year of publication time in one extended fight scene. Comics can't afford to do that.
Jason Cruz
The poor fools just don't know about speed lines.
Aaron Wood
Eli Williams
>Northside Kings Haymaker
Danzig will never recover from that. Damn.
Dominic Morgan
Josiah Flores
Cameron Gutierrez
Eli Thompson
>In manga, you can spend literally over a year of publication time in one extended fight scene.
I don't get how people in Japan have the patience for shonenshit. Even at a chapter a week that crap is unreadable. I prefer the way the US handles things honestly. And even here things are decompressed and move too slow.
Jack Nelson
1. Because comics are compressed unless you're looking at decompressed "wide screen" comics.
2. Remember the tagline of The Spirit. Action/Mystery/Adventure. Fights are only one part of the superhero formula while in shonen fights are...kind of the entire point. The best selling manga are never ending series of karate tournament style fights, often in a tournament setting. Cape comics tend to target a slightly older demographic that would get bored by Dragon Ball Z style storytelling.
Noah Sanders
Bentley Rivera
>not reading the new Wild Storm series
You're missing out.
Kevin Ramirez
Thats where the Mignolaverse proves once again its superiority over Big 2 shit.
Liam Ramirez
>that shitty panel work
>good fight scene
Where's the flow
Ryder Barnes
Because in reality very few individual fights are drawn out over multiple months.
Grayson Gray
Less room each month to space things out
Oliver Cooper
Because fight scenes are an excuse of laziness.
Dylan Turner
>all shonen is battle manga
I guess all comics are super heroes then
Anthony Collins
Because Japan is better than the US.
Noah Watson
for*
Ethan Green
Western comics aren't fight-oriented because, ultimately, they can get away with not being fight-oriented. Creative teams and their editors really don't have to put great thought and effort into showing a fight, beyond making sure that 1) it's not too cartoon-y, 2) it has a pinup quality to it, and 3) it's not overly long.
Shonen and seinen with fights inherently promise their readers that they're going to get fairly "epic" moments every few issues/chapters. Those moments might come from fights, but the key is that it's all hands on deck whenever a Japanese creative team decides "this is our big moment in this chapter". And so, they carefully go over the ways that moment can unfold to make sure it has high impact. Sure, there's a high reliance on tropes, but the best of the best mangas go a little further.
The same thing just doesn't happen in Western comics. You're lucky, for instance, to see a comic where creative teams (especially writers) have the time and effort to make sure important things have high impact. It can truly be argued that it's an issue with the writers, but the fact that the "layout" step in Western comics isn't a big deal is the underlying problem.
Austin Butler
A-Are you retarded user?
David Williams
...
Sebastian Perry
Interesting but wrong. You can have a good manga fight in 2 pages, the same amount of pages westerners waste on a spread of 2 characters jumping against each other
Sebastian Russell
He's right. Between the first and second panels the guy turns 180 degrees with respect to the monster but there is no indication of him turning in either panel. The page needs an extra panel showing him reorienting himself as he landed on the monster
Jonathan Perry
Its perfectly understable what happened.
Charles Parker
Only kids and manchildren admire fight scenes.
Jack Hernandez
I mean, I could udnerstand it after I thought about it for a second but the first time I read the page it really tripped me up. I remember thinking "wait, how did he get from there to onto the monster??"
Just look at that page you just posted. In panel 3, which way is he facing? Did he spin as he jumped, so that he is behind the guy below him now? Is that hy he is facing away from him? Or is the guy below him facing the other way, running from the door? Plus look at panel 4. It just cuts from him jumping to finishing dismembering 6 people, skipping practically the whole fight.
It looks like an interesting comic but OP is right I know several manga with much better fight scenes
Evan Martin
see now this is an example of a good fight
>displays multiple attacks
>good sense of movement and position
>incorporates environment in an interesting way
>characters expression communicates their thoughts/emotions
Michael Green
Ryan Ortiz
Do you not know what flow is?
Nathaniel Barnes
Interesting. This is something that always bothered me about action scenes in comics, and I never thought about it deeply before.
Scenes rarely have a good sense of motion, the panels seem to be "shot" from angles that don't flow well. The fights often lose a sense of causality because they just don't properly portray actions/reactions. I also hate how everything is "ragdolly" and looks like someone playing with adding random forces to objects in a physics simulation, like whoever made that never threw a punch.
Now I just skip fights to be honest.
Kevin Sanchez
It's not a question of "understandable", you ignorant jackass, it's a question of what looks good. Of what conveys motion, speed, pacing, and force.
I love BPRD, but the panels in your example pages break the flow of the reader's comprehension - they're not a good action scene. The monster looks cool, and what happens - dude jumps on monster, dude stabs people, people say stuff, people shoot monster, man jumps off monster - is perfectly understandable, but that doesn't mean it's well choreographed.
Cooper Reed
My god, this thread is leading up to the greatest moment in manga history; O MY RUBBER NEN
Jaxon Lopez
At least post some Toriyama.
Oliver Hall
No, you idiot. Howards (the running man) only turns 90 degrees. You're only looking at the woman. Only the transition between the last two panels breaks the 180 Degree rule, but Howards' foot extending into the next frame and the momentum carried over and up the stairs makes up for it.
This page actually shows both situations where it is inappropriate and appropriate to use the 180 Degree rule. If you think about it more than not at all you should be able to see that.
Leo Gutierrez
Someone please post more.
Ayden Gonzalez
I mean... you could just use spoiler tag now couldn't you. Especially when it's even further then the anime.
Jacob Rodriguez
Like 90 percent of shonen is "battle manga" and 100 percent of shonen actually making money is "battle manga".
You sound like one of those retards that go "Well AKTUALLY not all superhero comics involve men in tights saving the world look at these obscure exceptions!"
Get fucked.
Juan Sanders
Speedlines are for faggots
Miller is based
Eli Brown
Japan's prime minister recently got revealed to be taking bribe money from the Yakuza through his wife. Japan is a joke of a first world nation.
Juan Richardson
Nigga everything in those pages looks weightless and toy-like. There's no sense of impact or movement to anything.
Post an actually good fight, something not from OH MY RUBBER NEN the anime.
Lucas Ramirez
>11 image replies
dammit is this a bitching tread and not just posting awesome fights
Owen King
You're the more likely one
Bentley Morales
Okay now that's actually pretty good.
Jacob James
>try looking up Dragonball manga
>get shitty Dragonball super pages instead
Anyway Toriyamas writing problems are well known but he's a great artist
This is one page spent on one strike but conveys so much more impact than most two page spreads with dozens of characters fighting
Evan Cruz
>gets called out
>w-well actually it's like this, g-get fucked
Retard
Hunter Cox
I was actually referring to the first page that user posted when I posted that hereSee how he jumps over the head of the monster but then inexplicably lands facing the way the monster is?
How is it weightless? You can literally see the force of Hisoka's contracting bungee gum yanking him off the ground. Plus just look at the impact of his strikes on the mound of people, you can clearly see them being knocked back and off the tower of people (and then falling in this next panel)
Jordan Wilson
>confusing mess
Wow, you sure showed me
Ryan Ortiz
>Literally see the force
Nope. It's abstracted and weightless.
>Impact of his strikes
The people have no sense of weight or momentum. Just look at them piled up on top of each other. Its ridiculous.
Andrew Murphy
I have no fucking idea what is happening here.
Brody Nelson
Because there's no corruption in the US right? Lmao
Logan Gonzalez
You read it from right to left
Dominic Powell
east vs. west threads are cancer and against >>>Sup Forumsrules/1
OP is a faggot.
Do your part to help purge subhumans like him from this board by reporting this thread.
sys.Sup Forums.org/co/imgboard.php?mode=report&no=99318155
Aaron Cooper
O
David Wood
You misunderstand the Yakuza; the Yakuza are just so that there’s an infrastructure for the oversight of all crime in Japan. It’s basically the crim wing of the government, no shit the Prime Minister was a part of it.
They also have one of the lowest crime rates on Earth, and it wouldn’t be that way if it weren’t for the Yakuza.
Sebastian Wright
Western comics consider a long fight one that takes most a single issue to get through.
Manga considers a long fight one that takes dozens of chapters to get through.
Parker Lopez
Yes, I know and I've even seen the HxH anime, and I still have no idea whats going on. At least post a good example of manga, you Sup Forums shitter.
getterrobo.blogspot.com
Gabriel Reed
>Nope. It's abstracted and weightless.
You can see speed lines behind him as he flies up to the wall, and the second panel establishes precisely how far he traveled. Then, he lands with his knees bent to absorb the impact, and the sticky rubber-gum nen on his feet squish with the impact.
The people he is hitting are literally shown recoiling from his strikes and falling off the pile of people. Obviously a group of people piling on top of each-other like that would be ridiculous in real life but you need to know that in context they are literally mind-controlled suicide bombers with no sense of self preservation whose only goal is to close distance between themselves and Hisoka
Luke Thomas
>being a reportfag
Cooper Perez
I picked a panel almost entirely at random close to the end of a huge multi issue fight so it's shouldn't be expected that you would know what was going on
Also holy fuck the dude's ears
Joshua Sanchez
>Country literally ran by the mob
>Muh low (unreported and unrecorded) crime rate
Yes. The country with a culture known for suffering in silence and ruled by a criminal empire is a paradise. Nothing to see here. Move along.
thedailybeast.com
Japan likes LOOKING like its handling crime over actually DOING something about crime.
No wonder they have the 2nd highest suicide rate of any developed nation outdone only by Korea, right?
The Yellow race just can't get into the White race's democratic practices. What government they make is just a pale imitation much like Latin America.
Owen Nelson
Don't as a someone that's trying to make a good job with my own comic i'm actually really curious about this
Ian White
>Muh speed lines!
Gas yourself weeb.
Luis King
Not him, but have you ever been to Japan?
You'll see people just leave shit outside for big lengths of time without any risk of it being stolen.
You can find bikes unattended left overnight all the time, and they know they'll be there in the morning. I can't even leave a bike on my porch in the suburbs without rolling the dice on it being there in a few hours.
They have a legitimately low crime rate.
Brody Rogers
They also have a nearly unstoppable bureaucratic nightmare of a civil engineering department that creates useless public works projects like making literally over 50% of the Japanese coast consist of artificial seawalls and completely paving over nearly any trace of nature to prop up their economy
Cooper Hall
>I picked a panel almost entirely at random
So did I. I don't see how that is an excuse.
Parker King
If you want to gas me you're gonna have to catch me first *speed lines away*
Ryan Gonzalez
well it's just understandable you wouldn't know what is going on without any conext. I have no clue what's going on in the page you posted either
Parker Morgan
>Cape comics tend to target a slightly older demographic that would get bored by Dragon Ball Z style storytelling
>bored by Dragon Ball Z style storytelling
Yeah that is why DB is way more popular than any western comic/cartoon
Sebastian Lopez
This is why America continues to be the big daddy compared to Europe and Asia.
Socialism. Not even once.
How you tried living in a place without a lot of blacks around?
Landon Turner
I live in rich ass south orange county.
It was the same when I lived in a city with a non white population below 7%.
Isaac Peterson
>Latin Americans
They're literally a race of violent impulsive manchildren. Of course they would like Super.
Josiah Morales
>good job with my own comic
This is somewhat related, it focuses on manga and particularly dragonball but the core idea of focusing on the strengths of the medium and how certain authors do it applies just as well to western comics
IE look at the works of others and what makes them stand out and incorporate that into your style
youtube.com
Caleb Bell
I'm genuinely baffled by people still liking Dragon Ball without Toriyama.
Like that guy was an utter genius with his art and everything else was medicore to genuinely shite.
Aaron Kelly
It's more Keynesianism than socialism but it can work if done properly. A lot of the civil works under FDR arguably helped us get out of the great depression
Kevin Wilson
>south orange county
>44 percent non-hispanic white
I found your problem.
Caleb Ross
Fullmetal Alchemist is a master study in fight choreography.
Landon Russell
>race
American "education"
Nolan Stewart
>He fell for the race is just a social construct meme
Jose Morris
Not him it is. Race doesn't exist on a biological level.
James Torres
>american education
Cooper Scott
>I have no clue what's going on in the page you posted either
It's raining newts.
Christopher Lee
Toriyama has changed a shit ton since he started Dragon Ball back in the 80's and his style is unrecognizable. His story preferences also clearly aren't what DB became. Looking at stuff like Sand Land or Jaco you can see he clearly still likes what Dragon Ball originally was in terms of structure. He just feels he wrote himself into a corner since the main cast is so retardedly strong he has trouble making engaging enemies.
Landon Jackson
I didn't know we were all biologically identical
[spoilers]but lets not get into that again today on Sup Forums[/spoilers]
hallelujah
Liam Ward
Well this thread turned to garbage quickly. Nice job, Sup Forums
Jason Clark
The Dragon Ball franchise was a mistake.
Jaxson Young
That and page counts have been dropping as compared he's try to squeeze out the most money per issue.
An average weekly manga can have like a dozen extra pages per month to play with, easy. Many of them can have twice as much. Which means a manga that's not primary about fighting but has some violence can still afford as many pages on a single fight as a western cape comic without losing its narrative flow.
Michael Cooper
In fact, I'd go so far as to say this is most of the issue. If you look at a classic story like Fist of the North Star, individual fights rarely last super long. You have maybe a couple of pages for most, and a few that last four or five. The big iconic fights are few and far between. But Manga tends to have more space to set up fights and give them narrative weight and context so you usually have a decent idea of who every enemy in that story is, even one off guys who die within a month of their introduction.
Hunter Watson
>Well this thread turned to garbage quickly
idk i learned some cool stuff about dragon ball
Hunter Ortiz
It never had a chance of being good in the first place.
Henry Sanchez
>americans are violent impulsive manchildren
Fixed, gringo youtu.be
Logan Long
BITCH HAVE YOU NOT SEEN SHREK?
Adam Richardson
Multiple Reasons
>Western Comics can't fully commit an issue to just be a fight scene
*There are some exceptions though like Invincible but that's because Ryan Ottley is one of the few artists who actually knows how to do fight scenes
>Most people view fight scenes as just filler in Western Comics
>Yes, most Western Artists have no idea how to do an actual fight scene that isn't just a bunch of people jumping at each other in a giant splash nor do they properly know how to convey movement and speed that's why almost every fight scene is static and lacks weight. The fact that most of them don't even have a good handle on paneling is pretty bad too.
>Mangas anticipate being adapted to an anime and make it so that each chapter will look good once you see it animated. Animated adaptions of Western shit rarely ever are as close visual adaptions of their comics sans a few iconic scenes.
Lincoln Turner
Baronverse >Mignolaverse
Luke Campbell
this is unironically bad
Mason Nelson
I've wondered this too. Manga has drawn out fights that last for chapters. Comics usually take like 4 pages tops to finish fights
Mason Turner
>Manga has drawn out fights that last for chapters
Only a few shonen do this, its a giant fucking meme at this point.