Sideways

whats the point of pushing new characters in 2018?

in the current state of comics this cool characters are just doomed to fail

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Especially when the book is as mind numblingly boring and with completely static "action" like this.

Jon Kent worked out pretty well in Rebirth.

It's part of the whole "DC is desperate and doing everything they can to keep the lights on another month" thing

Memeing asside IS DC legit in need of money?
I mean DCEU is tanking but they're still breaking even (unless you somehow believe advertising and promotion costs are 700mil per movie), and they've got plenty of money from videogame deals I'm sure, and above all else they're still selling 6 figure amounts of some of their comics (which ain't amazing bust still numbers most other comic producers would kill for).

It's bait

The movies are tanking the direct to dvd garbage is tanking other than the CW and teen titans go their shows aren't any real successes and how many DC video games have you seen?

This is probably DC's last year

Of course not. Marvel's fags just being fags.

i hate you marvel kids with passion

>how many DC video games have you seen?
Like a lot, for fuck sakes user telltale has a Batman series currently going.

Look I don't agree with user but you people provide no argument other than "ladderbro" and "bait". Their sales across the board are down. Marvels too.

Ignoring the fact that the industry, particularly the comic side, is on a ledge is foolish.

People have been saying comics have been dying since 30 years but strangely enough you don't see this line of argument in indie threads.

So telltale batman and injustice 2

Meanwhile marvel has telltale guardians of the galaxy, marvel vs capcom infinite, Lego marvel super heroes 2, spiderman, and that square enix avengers thing

But DC also has lego games? Do you really want us to count and compare user?

Nice company war thread, ladderbros.

>marvel vs capcom infinite
Should we tell him?

compared to 30 years ago it is dead. They would have cencelled every title on the top ten lists last month if they sold that low back then.

This is the thing you newfag don't understand. It is dying you just have no other defense than "it isn't dead yet so HA."

Batman had Lego games and the last one was 4 years ago

>compared to 30 years ago it is dead.
Ok user. You just keep worrying about the sky falling down.

It was turned into one because neither company or their shills want people having an honest discussion of the worthlessness of any comic printed currently. They print too many ready and they'll never be worth anything. The final 40k "speculators" aren't propping up these new books so they don't sell and they're barely still buying Batman and shit because it's so bad atm and so over-printed it'll likely be forgotten or worth half cover price within a few years.

You made the point that they said it was dying 30 years ago. Not me. I simply told you that they were right. They had better sales when they went bankrupt and sold their properties off to movie studios.

>it's Batman
Yeah and Batman is a DC franchise.
>4 years ago
Video games don't stop being video games 4 years from now.

>It was turned into one because neither company or their shills want people having an honest discussion of the worthlessness of any comic printed currently
It was always a company war thread.

>user says comics aren't doing great
>user replies they said that 30 years ago
>user says and they were right
>user replies keep telling yourself that

Without the corporate backing these companies would be printing as many comics as indies which apparently indiefags don't understand is a problem.

>I simply told you that they were right
So you keep saying chicken little.

No it wasn't.

Comics today focus on trades and merchandising. They won't simply go away because they're used to promote those things

i mean is obvious the internet is killing comics,i dont know you people are arguing about something that is real...

Yeah it was.

user half the books in last months top ten sold 50k. That's not healthy I don't care what some child like you thinks.

>being against original characters
>wanting more shitty legacy characters

Fucking kill yourself.

Anyone denying the "collapse" is a shill man. It's why they immediately go into anti-company war mode to say the thread was a company war thread.

Nobody wants this discussion to happen. It requires accepting failure that the new readers they were looking for didn't arrive and they were traded for people that moved on.

Comics do not focus on merchandising. The corporate owners do. The movies and cartoons were and are merch factories.

>the collapse that people been predicting for decades but never happens.

point is there hasn't been a lego dc game since probably because it's as toxic a brand for video games as it is for movies

>>wanting more shitty legacy characters
if anything OP made the opposite assertion. That the regulars should be there.

It did. You defending 50K being a top ten book figure doesn't change that. Without corporate backing that's an unsustainable sales figure.

>Spider-Man ripoff selling better than the original
This triggers the marlelfags.

I don't want to break it to him, you do it

OK, we get it. You want DC dead so you go around crying wolf.

DC thought they could capitalize on Marvel messing up their comic characters. They didnt expect the Shogun to go Meiji restoration on their asses

Nothing I said was aimed at DC specifically. One of my points was actually specifically tailored to marvels failures. But since you have no clue what you're talking about you missed it.

Comics are definitely selling way less than they were in the past. Decades ago it was perfectly normal for series to sell hundreds of thousands of issues every month. However, one thing to be aware of is the fact that while less individual units are sold now, each one makes a lot more money. A comic in 1965 was $0.12 which is about $0.95 today. Most issues sell for at least 3x that much if not more. You have to understand the shift in how comics are perceived now as opposed to back then. They were just cheap magazines printed on cheap paper that you picked up while waiting in line at a grocery store.

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So are comic making more money now?

Which is why if they want people to buy sideways (or any of the new books) for 2.99 they're insane. Even their brand name characters aren't worth that mark up.

>You have to understand the shift in how comics are perceived now as opposed to back then. They were just cheap magazines printed on cheap paper that you picked up while waiting in line at a grocery store.
You have to understand that the way writers treat characters and fans this is exactly how they view them again. They're asking people to invest a hundred or so dollars a year while having catwoman knock three flashes out and sending shills online to angrily attack criticism.

If they treated them like anything more than silly little stories they'd have writers that love the characters, respect the fact that they're writing an over-priced book, and would have editors that are more about those people investing money in overpriced books than the feelings of the creators.

No because they were also much cheaper to produce, from paying writers/artists to printing.

You know that the publishing arm of DC doesn't actually make any money off of the movies right? In fact they have nothing to do with them either, it's all WB. The success of the movies have no effect on the comics at all.

No one even mentioned Laddebro until you did, Ladderbro. You think so highly of yourself, don't ya?

These threads pain me because I don't know if it's shills trying to derail the conversation or if there are people that seriously think "they're still printing them so where's the collapse" is anything but naivety.

If Disney didn't own Marvel Comics there would be no marvel. If WB didnt own DC there would be no DC comics division. These are not money making ventures unless they were to kill 80 percent of their line up and only print a few books a month. And even then they'd need to go back to pulpy paper.

When will you idiots realize that WB and DC Comics are two separate companies just like Marvel Studios and Marvel comics?

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Lot of disinformation in this thread.
comichron.com/yearlycomicssales.html

selling better than what,the black spidey?

I noticed you didn't mention who was disinforming. These numbers back the assertion that sales are not good. It's those saying there is no collapse that are wrong.

Next time have some backbone and make your assertion instead of posting numbers and saying "here's some numbers."

Let's do the math, using just DC as a baseline

In 1965, DC sold approximately 7 million issues at $0.12 a pop, totaling $840,000, or about $67,000,000 today.

>1965: $67,000,000

In 1985, DC sold 3 million issues at about $0.75, totaling $2,250,000 or about $53,000,000 today.

>1985: $53,000,000

Skipping ahead to today (where sales are reported differently so it's a little tricky), in 2017 DC comics held 29.47% of $522,250,000 total comic and graphic novel sales through DCD, which is about $153,907,075

>2017: $153,907,075

So in summary, The comic industry is definitely not dead. It just makes a lot of its money through more expensive comics and (very importantly) trades.

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>These numbers back the assertion that sales are not good.
Nice try disinfo.

I mean OP is focusing on Sideways.

Nobody said it was dead but it's certainly dying. Trade sales aren't sustainable as book stores aren't doing well either.

Really the only "positive" spin here is if you prefer digital because it's the only thing showing a propensity for "growth" and that can be attributed to oldfags not being able to buy what they want in physical formats because printing cost is prohibitive.

Also none of this seems to account for cost of production.

>Nobody said it was dead but it's certainly dying
How is it dying? The main argument put forth is that they sell less individual units than decades ago, but I just proved that they're actually making more money. None of the numbers I stated included digital.

>all sales down
>better

Can't wait for "muh one year dip doesn't matter" you're four year rise doesn't matter in a 30 year dip.

He used that picture. Didn't use the name or name the company. Anons need to be less soft. (Really I do think it's shills derailing a conversation they don't want to happen)

You didn't prove that at all and if you'd read my full reply you might realize that.

That doesn't account to inflation you moron.

What in your post shows that comics are dying, the fact that book stores are dying? It's extremely easy to buy trades off of Amazon. You also claim that a big problem is production costs, but don't give any actual numbers on that.

Yes it does, actually read my post; I adjusted for inflation.

By that i mean the salaries and rolaties of writers or the advertisments. 167m is 1/5th of what Justice league made.

Well this discussion got dumb really fast

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>By that i mean the salaries and rolaties of writers or the advertisments
If you want to counter what I said, you'll have to give actual numbers regarding about production costs/ads instead of just a vague "I'm sure it's high just believe me."

>167m is 1/5th of what Justice league made.
No one was claiming that comics make more than movies, but that's never been the case and I don't see how it's relevant.

>He used that picture
But he also title the thread sideways. I think its disingenuous to say that OP wanted to talk about the state of the industry, OP wanted to talk about how DC was failing and creatively bankrupt I'm not saying these are all the same people but it's very evident that this thread started out bashing DC attempt at a new character.

user I don't need to know production cost numbers to know you've completely ignored them.

Operational cost across every industry has gone up in the last half century.

While I disagree with the dude above here him and I are at least discussing the facts as to why they might not do that (or would). The people screeching company Wars are the ones that are attempting to ruined it.

I would but I don't give enough to care about this argument. All I know is that bemdis and slot make six figures which means that money is being burned. Comics themselves seem to he doing well but floppies are tanking that's the big 2's bread and butter. At this point they need to evalute how they distribute comics. People don't want to pay for floppies.

>sideways memes

WEW

I think you need to grow up. One complained about the static art which is valid when it's a movment based powerset.

The other two are replies and you didn't regard others that didn't fit your narrative. I think anons need to let their sack drop and stop fucking detailing and REEing in threads over "muh company Wars"

>user I don't need to know production cost numbers
You kinda have to if you're brining up production cost.

Yes costs have gone up, but revenue is up 300% from 1985. It would take a lot to make the argument that costs have offset that so much that the industry is ready to fail.

>I would but I don't give enough to care about this argument
gg

>If you want to counter what I said, you'll have to give actual numbers regarding about production costs/ads instead of just a vague "I'm sure it's high just believe me."

I don't need to know why the sky is blue to tell you that it isn't because Paul Bunyan strapped a giant C4 bomb to his Ox when it shit on the carpet one too many times.

You ignored a major factor we aren't the ones attempting to give "Actual" numbers (which are all based on shipping numbers anyway). Sales are down and you've made the assertion that it doesnt matter cause they charge a lot while ignoring that it costs a lot.

not yet but they're about to be

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The amount of time it takes to research would still amount to nothing without know how much of the burden is placed on comic book stores. Overshipping and varients are killing stores left and right. Unless they start to prop up trading card games and other merch. It's hard to get accurate figures when companies imploy dishonest tactics to try and wring out every cent.

I gave the revenue numbers because those are the only ones available. Again, I'm not denying that costs have gone up, but it's an extraordinary claim to state that there has been such a rise in production costs from 1985 to now that it completely dwarfs a 300% increase in revenue. If that's the basis for your argument you need stats to back it up.

But if you're gonna talk about number you are going to need those numbers.
>Sales are down and you've made the assertion that it doesnt matter cause they charge a lot while ignoring that it costs a lot.
But you don't know what those production costs are so actually you're the one who has to provide proof.

It's bait nigga
Starting new departments would need resources, money to staff people, all that. If a company is in dire straits they won't be able to launch ten different imprints

>posting rumor started be TheWrap

They wouldn't do that. The government or TW. A sell off like that would make No sense because it's the brunt of their worth in a world that's consolidating for streaming. Disney props would not be able to be under the same umbrella as Warners properties and it's actually in THAT case in which the government would step in. Sadly, in order to compete with Disney/Fox they have to allow ATT or some other massive buyer to pick up properties for their inevitable streaming service.

They love "competition". They prefer two over one, even if they prefer two over many.

What a time to be alive eh?

You need ACTUAL SALES FIGURES then you fucking fool. This is exactly the problem your showing revenue that isn't even customer side which either intentionally ignores that LCSs are middle men or that you actually don't know what the numbers you're looking at show.

Stop acting as if you've provided anything but your assumptions based on numbers that aren't in any way more accurate than those shipment counting charts placing spider above batman and Superman.

>if you want to refute numbers that everyone knows aren't actuals you'll need some bullshit numbers of your own

Fine, it costs fourteen quadrillion to print comics! See how easy that is?

user didn't post facts he posted conjecture dressed as data.

I have taken it off topic too far and I apologize.

I don't agree with your assertions but I'll accept them as what you believe. To bring that back to the topic, do you think those numbers provide a good landscape to inject new characters in to?
And others

Only thing Marvel has going for it is Contest of Champions, but it's not as popular as FGO.

Listen user, you're the one who brought production cost into this.

I'm the first reply and I just wanted to bash the Sideways comic because it fucking sucks, it's a shame the thread devolved into company wars wankery.

You're taking the fact that while revenue data doesn't provide every detail among the supply chain, it does show general trends and approximations of sales, and turning it into "WE LITERALLY HAVE NO IDEA HOW MUCH MONEY THEY MADE!" Which is either disingenuous or just stupid. Also I feel like a lot of this is just backpedaling on your part because you don't have any numbers whatsoever to back up your arguments. Unless you produce them, then your argument only boils down to "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but here's my baseless conjecture."

That's your opinion. Personally I'm enjoying it and want to see where it goes

And you're acting as if it was actuals I was responding to. You're the one (assuming you're that user) that brought numbers into it that we know aren't "real". (Not in a fake news hurr durr way)

I'm being told to bring facts in response to best guesses.

And beside that again, taking your view as truth for the sake of argument let's move back to the topic. Is this a good environment for the big two to be releasing a who swath of new characters while canceling books that sell better?

This thread always meant to bash Sideways, this thread was always meant to be a company wars thread, to say that OP actually wanted to talk about comic book sales is a bunch of horseshit.

So a general trend is valid enough to prove that sales are good but the general trend of lower sales isn't enough to refute that?

How do we know that these numbers aren't real?

>but the general trend of lower sales isn't enough to refute that?
Lower sales at a higher cost. If I sell 1 gizmo for $100 and you sell 10 gizmos for $1 each, I made more money. That's a more complete picture than just looking at the number sold. In fact if your argument is printing costs, then selling fewer copies at a higher markup actually reduces cost.

I prefer new characters. It would be awesome if storylines actually moved with real life. People would grow, heroes would hand over the costume to new people, new heroes would have to rise as others die. In the older days of comics you couldnt kill off superman for good because nobody would be able to read aboutbhim anymore, but this is the internet age. You can have comics online of old issues, telling the stories that lead to where comics are today.

Wow, this nightwing guy is cool, How did he get here? Ok so i go on comixology and read about how he's the second nightwing, given the mantle by the previous one who trained under batman. Let me read all of that and have an ongoing, evolving story.

Idk. I just like comics and i like change where its appropriate.

Which is why you're telling people to go find out production cost because you know damn well writers and artists cost a FUCK TON more, as well as paper and ink as well as shipping as well as every other facet of running a business (like building and mounting digital networks to host comics for a growing audience that connects through mobile devices of all kinds.)

No it is not in us responding to the "numbers" to find "numbers" you failed to include. Fuck you that isn't how this works.

I think this is an idea they could explore in minis with these type of characters. The problem is if any were to sell well then they inevitably bring them back and every other similar "mini" or "ending" to a characters story would lose its worth.

What books are they cancelling now that sell better to make way for new (non-legacy) characters?

>you know damn well writers and artists cost a FUCK TON more
Hmm, that's just vague enough for you to base your entire argument on, good job. Also let's not forget that the original argument about comics failing was based solely on lower shipping numbers and after that was shown to not be an issue you're just moving the goalposts.

What exactly are they canceling that sell better? And of course new characters are going to have smaller numbers

>Is this a good environment for the big two to be releasing a who swath of new characters while canceling books that sell better?
>shifting the goalposts
Also it's not a zero sum game here user, DC as a publisher is casting a wide net with new titles and imprints which points to DC being in a good place where they feel confident in experimenting.

*maintining not mounting
Property cost for storage and offices. Shipment cost for stuff like Conventions and events. Business meetings cost more and because even the catering for that costs more. And you're sitting here saying "they make less but sell for disproportionally more that means more money." No that affects market share more than anything. It has no reflection of the "success" of the company.

Or desperate. Not that it matters both are doing so badly they had to be bought out by bigger companies to sustain themselves.