This thread is for the discussion of any and all left-wing political ideology, including, but not limited to, Marxism/Socialism/Communism/Anarchism/Syndicalism/etc.
>Socialism is an economic and social system defined by social ownership of the means of production. (Workers democratically own and operate the places in which they work, as opposed to private power aka capitalism)
>The means of production are non-human inputs the create economic value, such as factories, workplaces, industrial machinery, etc. Socialists refer to the means of production as capital, or private property. Private property in the socialist context shouldn't be confused with personal property, such as your home, car, computer, and other possessions.
>In a capitalist society the means of production are owned and controlled privately, by those that can afford them (the capitalist aka those with capital). Production is carried out to benefit the capitalist (production for profit). Workers are paid a wage, and receive that amount regardless of how much value they produce.
>Communism is the highest developed stage of socialism wherein there is no state, no money, no class system. The means of production are owned by all and provide for everyone's needs.
Pol Pot reached the truest conclusion of communism.
Jeremiah Russell
By posting in this thread you are hereby denouncing Trump's capitalist lies and starting your first day of not being a classcuck.
John Watson
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Colton Cox
pre-emptive reply to whoever posts the image
Joshua Allen
SWAMP TOURS SOLD OUT
Mason Price
>imblygn ur mum isn't the truest conclusion of communism
Liam Phillips
Why haven't you chosen the patrician's political stance yet, Sup Forums?
William Rivera
Pick your comrade waifu
Joshua Brooks
Is there a bigger political joke than this guy?
Luis Reed
>shittiest one irl is qtest in pic
You'd better know who I'm talking about
Isaac Carter
DONT LET THIS CHANCE PASS
reply to this and I will post my paystubs and bank account movements, proving I am hired by the Russian government. Also I will post a screenshot of our proxy layer software.
Christian Diaz
Stalin was a sexy lad to be fair.
Colton Reyes
LOL
Dude that's so fucking stupid, just use money.
Ethan King
Cutting the shitposting for a second, does anyone know any large leftist groups in the US that aren't
a) Muh identity politics "leftist" groups that actually talk about feminism and trans liberation all day instead of actual politics
b) Tankies that masturbate to the USSR
?
Jacob Bailey
you're a big guy
Oliver Gonzalez
>t. hasn't actually RTFM >yeah dude, price is 100% absolutely always the most valid way to gauge an item's actual value >that's why meaningless modern art trash that could have been made by a four year old sells for millions
Ryan Lee
The value of an item is literally just how much someone wants it, and using money as a metric for that is the simplest possible way.
Have you ever just considered using Occam's Razor on your entire political ideology?
Parker Lee
To the few actual lefties reading this that aren't butthurt heliposters, what do you think of people like Corbyn? Does he help to partially radicalise people, or is he totally useless and a distraction from the radical left?
Kayden Nelson
This might be a hard concept to cram into your tiny brain, but an object's "value" isn't some immutable, objective quality, it can be perceived in different ways depending on the dimension in which you analyse it. Sometimes it's more useful to think of something's value in terms of its price. Other times it's more useful to look at it in the perspective of how much labor went into extracting/creating the item, which is where Marx comes in.
Michael Lewis
Wew, lad. That's why market prices change, because value changes.
Ian Clark
He's alright, nothing to write home about pic related was funny tho
Leo Thomas
So if a blank canvas with a glob of paint thrown on sells for $1M, that was its objective, absolute, no-two-ways-about-it value?
If something's value is in the exact number of dollars it is worth, does that mean that under hyperinflation the objective value of a loaf of bread suddenly becomes 1000000x greater?
Connor Flores
Mods in this site censor right wingers from posting in these threads quite often.
Alexander Powell
>Muh Stalin destroyed Lenin's utopia Stalin just drained the Swamp.
Carter Foster
Yes and yes.
Isaac Foster
chuckled
Brayden Smith
>m-might is right! >t. shrimp-dicked neet stormfag
Owen Anderson
>I believe in only one single definition of value even when I have been shown that in many cases it is meaningless to the point of absurdity
If you really feel that way
Isaac Hughes
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Jordan Myers
>list of arguments from yet another person that sounds like they heard about Marxism yesterday, but with some fancy big words at the bottom so you know it's legit
To pick literally one thing wrong with that spaghetti post: >emotional arguments and appeal to morality is literally the opposite of Marxism
Blake Harris
also >inb4 "yeah but he said Marxist activism, not necessarily "Marxist history"" If activists are doing Marxism wrong that's their own fault, not Marx's.
Joseph Harris
Socialist Alternative? Democratic Socialists of America?
James Green
that image did make me kek
Alexander Ortiz
The rest of Marx's analysis goes into why that is a bad idea.
Andrew Bennett
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Lucas Martin
That's a shoop/fake jackass.
Elijah Lopez
>capitalshills will never adequately defend this
Gabriel Clark
who /non-bolshevik communism/ here?
Dylan Flores
Daily reminder that these threads aren't subverting anyone, and marxists are children that want big daddy government to take care of them.
John Williams
Get fucked nigger
Gavin Gomez
Hello!
Landon Bennett
I'm only a bol ironically
Logan Baker
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Isaac Gomez
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Lincoln Rodriguez
...
Parker Torres
...
Jaxon Ortiz
Leftypol sliding.
John Wood
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Jaxson Perez
bump
Julian Green
...
Sebastian Foster
Me certainly. We need a more radical form of democracy than soviet worker councils. And vanguard parties are certainly out of the question.
Also this Personally I'm just pessimistic about the prospect of people doing that. I'm in some deep shit at the moment, and trying my best to get out of it, but find it important to remember that if I do, I'm the lucky one. Most people will never make something of their life, because of poverty, consumerism, and alienation.
They should probably be blamed for it personally, but at the same time, what kind of society produces such people? And isn't the best way for these people to deal with their problem to acknowledge it collectively? To see that they have a common struggle, and reshape society to overcome it. Socialism isn't the movement to alleviate the suffering a bit, that's modern social democracy. Socialism is the way to take responsibility once and for all.
Oscar Wilde said it brilliantly:
> The emotions of man are stirred more quickly than man’s intelligence; and, as I pointed out some time ago in an article on the function of criticism, it is much more easy to have sympathy with suffering than it is to have sympathy with thought. Accordingly, with admirable, though misdirected intentions, they very seriously and very sentimentally set themselves to the task of remedying the evils that they see. But their remedies do not cure the disease: they merely prolong it. Indeed, their remedies are part of the disease.
> They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor.
> But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim.
I assure you, this thread is very white and male.
Oliver Martin
Stalin didn't kill hundreds of millions of people. He killed some hundreds of thousands, if even that.
Wyatt Robinson
(me) "That" meaning getting over wanting to be taken care of. Sorry for poor wording.
Nicholas Sanchez
Most anarchists in Greece could kick you your pasty little neet ass into the ground,
>no state, no money, no class system >no money Then why work at all? >no state Then who will force the people back to work?
This is why this nonsense doesn't work. I'm a mechanic. Why? Money. If it weren't for money, I would only work on my own car, everyone else's vehicle can fall apart for all I care.
Take monetary reward away from the worker, and the worker has no remaining reason to continue to labor.
And when the factories remain untended, the farm fields left to turn to grass and mud, the roads cracked apart, the power lines fallen... what remains that could return the workers? Only the threat of force remains, the state must become a totalitarian enforcer.
The state cannot be dissolved at this point, you removed monetary gain, they have to become the lash, or, the whole system needs to return to capitalism once more.
Luis Brooks
@102329964 Suka blyad, cumrag
Benjamin Jones
>Most people will never make something of their life, because of poverty, consumerism, and alienation. Those are really bad excuses, and you're a weak, retarded child for thinking they aren't.
People pull themselves up by their own bootstraps out of poverty all the fucking time. It's ok though you will eventually learn how the real world works when you grow up.
Ian Garcia
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James Ramirez
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Aiden Moore
We'll use labor vouchers, which are pretty much the same as money.
Which is what I said. It's a pitiful excuse, they should be blamed for who they are. But most people aren't going to get beyond the excuse under capitalism. That's just a fact.
So, do you want to live in a world where people keep making bullshit excuses or one where people make something of themselves? If the second, you should consider socialism.
Daniel Wright
I've posted a similar reply that's more in depth in another thread, but basically:
>Then why work at all? a) Because you might want to b) Because you might be obligated to (see next set of points) c) There exists some other form of incentive besides money (as we know it today) which could include some kind of labor voucher, or cryptocurrency, or many other options. If you're a market socialist, then money would still exist like normal. d) (Copout answer) robots will do all the work
>Then who will force the people back to work? There could exist a decentralised, distributed power structure within everyone in the community that obligates people to do the basic minimum of work. If society were structured into more, close-knit, personal-level communities, maybe you wouldn't need asking. I hope you were a good boy and helped your mother around the house.
Connor Young
Anarchist? Christian commie?
Nathan Gray
Marxism is pre-autistic, get your chronology straight. Autism started with marginal utility theory.
Matthew Brooks
That's an ironic statement from marxs isn't it
Nathan Rivera
This one man has created the greatest explosion in extractable reserves of political autism the world has ever seen.
Or maybe that was Ayn Rand...
Noah Clark
>We'll use labor vouchers, which are pretty much the same as money.
So literally all you've done is changed the name of money.
Welp, that's it boys, we've changed the name of money to "labor vouchers", now we can call ourselves socialists!
>First make a system that has a nine figure death toll >After it fails, reappear as beta cucks.
Really makes those neurons process information in a faster way
James Richardson
You work. You get a voucher for the time and intensity of it. You go to the shop. You buy some bananas.
The problem isn't whether it's sensible, it's whether it works in Marx's analysis. A lot of Marxists believe that it does, and other Marxists believe it doesn't have to, that his system holds up under more modern theories of value.
Daniel Allen
go fucking kill yourself you fucking beta male losers
William Smith
>le Bernie is communist meme
Tyler Roberts
Yeah, the workers had so many rights.
Liam Jones
the only way the left can get the country to approve of socialism is if there is a social contract among the people.
the only way there can be a social contract among the people is if there is an end to the culture wars.
The only way there can be an end to the culture wars if for one culture to defeat the others.
The only way one of the cultures can win is by persuading the majority to adopt their ethics system.
The only way to get people to adopt a new ethics system is by convincing them their ethics are immoral.
The BEST way to convince people their ethics are immoral is by picking on people who are empirically immoral and depraved.
Ergo, for leftists to enact socialism, they will have to assimilate enough depraved, immoral, and criminal culture-groups to gain a supra-majority.
Since the left says they love minorities and the poor so much, they can start there. Get blacks to dump ghetto culture, get Hispanics to dump Chicano culture, the the white trash to stop being white trash.
Once you've done that, come back to Sup Forums and tell us how you did it.
Ian Bailey
Worker receives X voucher for adding X resources to economy. He then is able to purchase products or X labor with said vouchers. That's the idea, at least. A worker spends each day making 1/45 of a car, he is entitled to afford a car of his own after 45 days. It's pretty much what Nazi Germany did for their economic miracle.
Nolan Watson
and OP never posted again
Connor Wilson
I'm amazed this is still going on. Good work comrades!
Isaac Russell
>It doesn't work because it's old >modern economics totally works guyz, 2008 wasn't a bug, it was a feature
Ryan Rodriguez
You're thinking of pic related
Mason Barnes
>>First make a system that has a nine figure death toll We're not talking about capitalism though
Jack Russell
>I believe in only one single definition of value even when I have been shown that in many cases it is meaningless to the point of absurdity >t. never actually read marx
William Rodriguez
Who's going to determine the value of those vouchers then? People will find loopholes to exploit this meme by doing shitty, unproductive stuff and noone is going to do jobs that require more work. Come back to me when this shitty system is going to fail like all sorts of socialism in the past.
Evan Young
>The only way there can be an end to the culture wars if for one culture to defeat the others. The only way there can be an end to the culture wars is if all cultures unite as working class citizens. Also, without profit-motivated mass media stirring racial and cultural unrest for clicks, there's a higher chance it might stay that way.
Logan Wood
why you fags put Yuri on your op? do you realise in USSR we had a special place for your kind of lefties? worked their asses off for great soviet union in chains, because otherwise likes of you were worthless to great socialistic society
read "social parasitism act"
Adam Murphy
What a retarded meme. People flee shitty capitalist countries all the time.
Xavier Murphy
2008 occurred because communists forced people to give loans to proles
Jose Turner
>The BEST way to convince people their ethics are immoral is by picking on people who are empirically immoral and depraved. Which is why we're here.
Jaxon Davis
you do understand that the USA uses socialist political and economic tools, right?
Our tax system in the 40s and 50s made us a military super power.
our old age healthcare and poverty care are socialist (state owned and run) systems.
Any organized with a federal charter (red cross, the federal reserve system, Fannie Mae, Freddy Mac) are partially socialist institutions.
Your inability to see that the system is a mix of capitalist and socialist elements proves you are very stupid, and that you stop posting to Sup Forums.
